Mordhau
 Pred
Knight
  • Likes received 2522
  • Date joined 3 May '17
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Knight 2228 4000
  • 17 Sep
 Runagate

that's like asking why pistols and submachine guns are worse than assault rifles in counter strike

90 107

Also holy SHIT was it stupid to give Red catapult on Camp. Like what? They're defending! The guy on Catapult is completely impregnable from attack. Every game they rack up so many kills because they can just camp the spawn ALL GAME. Like did you not playtest this?

No no no this is horrible. Beyond horrible even.

I love Camp on Frontline. But Camp on Invasion is completely garbage to play as Blue.

24 13
  • 12 Sep
 Spree237

I think that idea comes from how the steam page was written.

" Enter a hectic battlefield of up to 64 players as a mercenary in a fictional, but realistic world"

"Believable fights: A game where fights look believable, MORDHAU strikes a balance between gameplay and realism."

Not to count how it was marketed, I remember times where realism was brought up as a thing for Mordhau, not that I can see any more of those at this point.

Knight 3132 7290
  • 12 Sep
 Punzybobo

awful post

Duke 544 898
  • 5 Sep
 Goatie

Make mordhau a team game already and solve all of this

Knight 933 941
  • 1 Sep
 afiNity

@TombstoneJack said:

@afiNity said:

@Quenquentthebabysitter said:

@IllOmens said:
The thing I am looking forward to is shields getting banned in ranked until shield nerfs come.

Someone needs to explain me something.

In duel servers, I almost never see a shield (by shield I mean holding shields). And when I do, they get destroyed by other 2 handers. But then, I read stuff like this above.

Will people agree on whenever shield is overpowered or underpowered in Duels ?

Shields are super annoying and op in the right hands as they have no real downside

presses F

gets free headshot

I said in the right hands

Knight 5096 6835

@littledoge115 said:

@esturias said:
No need to. It's fine for now. Better adjust (REDESIGN!!!) all the other AoE features of the game first...

What other AOE features are there besides catapults/trebuchets?

I don't even know why there are still RNG trebuchets in camp, i have yet to see people say "hey it's so cool to have trebuchets fire randomly on the battlefield, being even a danger to their own team, arguably more because usually the red team is facing towards blue side of the map so they don't see them coming unless they drop everything when they hear the horn and turn around to see where the fuckfest is going to land, man, what a blast"

84 133
  • 31 Aug
 IllOmens

@crushed said:
Will be adjusted soon

Can you just leave them useless please, the game is better for it.

Thanks

1058 1696

Yes.

Happiness is an internal process. A decision each soul must make for itself. BLOODLUST

With the help of crystals I feel more in tuned to the vibrations RED PARRIES of the universe and I feel the love emanating from everything... FEMALE CHARACTERS

I have decided to be happy no matter what negative external influences SHIELDS may be trying to affect my positive aura CLEAVER

I've also started microdosing LSD and magic mushrooms to over come RAPIER the trauma from previous negative outlooks. NO BLACK PEOPLE IN MORDHAU Only good vibes FIREBOMBS from here on out :)

383 576
 smug

I think it should be split queues but Mordhau doesn't have the population to have functional queues in the first place, so splitting the community will be fueling the flames of the dumpsterfire that is Mordhau Ranked.

It's debatable whether or not third person is better in duels, but for 3v3 Skirm it's not even an argument that third person is just better because of the situational awareness you need in team modes. The vast majority of players are handicapping themselves by NOT playing third person in team fights, which wouldn't be a problem if there wasn't an option to switch perspectives. Player preference =/= most optimal choice, if this was the case fightsticks would be more optimal than hitboxes which isn't the case. This goes for 240 vs Binds as well, Trit really dropped the ball by making attacks bindable allowing people to circumvent their shitty control scheme implementation, instead of fixing 240 by removing the intermediary angles.

but guess what, those animations are easier to get a read on in 1p.

Probably not true as the most cancerous animations are done by putting the windup as close to your head cam as possible and then dragging etc. With the exception of stabs, I'm pretty sure everything is easier to read in 3p. You could make the argument that a zoomed fov is easier to read feints/animations with, but no top player is going to be playing with 90 horizontal fov in this game for good reason, not even duelers.

People aren't using 3p because it's worse than 1p, it's probably because most top chiv players traditionally played 1p so they are more inclined to use stuff that's familiar to them, and for the casuals first person is a lot more immersive and 3p animations look borderline retarded so it's more effective to larp in 1p. Anytime I play 3P I feel like my character has palsy.

48 40

We all know how the 3rd view gives you a massive advantage in duel and how you can exploit animations, or you can still look at your oppenant blade without facing him once. I'm affraid that the ranked games will be ruined by that and that we will all have to end up using the 3rd in order to perform at maximum level.

Therefore there should be an option that allow players to be able to play in ranked only against people with 1st or 3rd if they want to.

It would be like :

Ranked Matchmaking :
....

  • Optional :
    □ Only 1st view duel
    □ Only 3rd view duel

[ R E A D Y ]

Knight 755 3279
  • 21 Aug
 Mittsies

@Soulcatcher said:
literally nobody besides meme boys main it for duels

because its a bad weapon

yes, it's a bad weapon in duels.

in duels

in duels

nobody in this thread was talking about duels

game isn't balanced around duels either btw

Knight 755 3279
  • 19 Aug
 Mittsies

The last patchie was June 22nd; 58 days ago.

The longer something in Mordhau stays unchanged, the more the frustration it builds up for players. It would be unrealistic to expect a brand new map or big content patch every week, but it's NOT unreasonable to want a few tweaks every now and then to keep things in line. Everyone knows there's a big patch on the way with new maps, ranking, balance changes, fixes, and all sorts of goodies, but it's easy to lose interest altogether in the meantime. It's very unhealthy for the community to let the game go without a patch for so long, it makes players feel like nobody is listening. The consistent negativity and chanting of "dead game" that follows going without a patch for several months at a time scares off potential new players and makes current players just quit and move on.


I said last year during the alpha:

Is releasing a quick patch important?
The main issue with such long periods between patches is that it temporarily nukes the playerbase, turning the game into a ghost town until the next patch. For the small pool of alpha players, it's not a big deal, but if this continues after the game is released it could be a real problem. It would be disastrous to allow the post-release playerbase sit on a broken patch for several months, things like that could really hurt the game's future. If the patch itself doesn't do it, the negativity from the community will. I've already seen it happen: the veterans whining and complaining in chat about how the current patch is shitty and broken, and it really gives the newer players (beta/earlybird wave) a bad impression of the game. Combine that negativity with a long wait for the next patch, and you've got an uninstall.

(source)


This is an on-going issue with the development of Mordhau. Something needs to change, or the game's concurrent playerbase will be damaged beyond repair, and somewhere down the line even a huge patchie could fail to bring back more than a few thousand players. 4~5 weeks is the absolute maximum we should go without a patchie, even just a handful of quick tweaks and fixes, and 2~3 weeks is the absolute maximum we should go without some kind of development update / communication from the developers.

383 576
  • 8
  • 18 Aug
 smug

The skill ceiling for this game in 1v1 is lower than Chiv, and the skill floor is relatively low compared to other niche games. There's no execution barriers like the elaborate drags in Chiv. Teamgames and 1vX currently has a higher skill cap, but the latter is currently broken meaning it's impossible for a good player to win a 1vX vs other good players barring the X making huge mistakes. Compare learning Mordhau to Quake or Tekken 7, there's literally no comparison. Just learning your movelist in Tekken is harder than anything in Mordhau, and that's not even including shit like learning the various ways to get up off the floor and understanding how that influences matchups, or how about learning how to break command throws which requires you to read animations and is more indepth than anything Mordhau has to offer defensively? Also for a game that prides itself on you having control over your attacks, it's actually crazy how much control you DON'T have compared to Chiv.

People aren't leaving this game because it's inaccessible, people are leaving because it gets repetitive and Frontline is full of cancerous mechanics like fire bombs/horses/body shot Javs. Not to mention the maps are dogshit.

Knight 693 1581
  • 18 Aug
 das

@Jax said:
We obviously care about the game and we're working on updates, if we wanted to jump ship with the money we wouldn't be making big updates and working super hard on content and features.

Everything is true except this part: obviously, which is the crux of the problem. This isn't because you guys aren't working on the game (I understand that new maps and mechanics take forever), but because nothing is being communicated and immense problems that do have a quick or already finished solution aren't implemented in a timely manner (horses, Crossroads temporary removal, the TKing and spawnblocking issue, etc.). To me, this indicates an issue with the development pipeline and someone in the private Discord chat theorized that whatever version control is being used disallows the team from releasing such hotfixes on an older, stable live version.

When people return to the game and give it another try, they want to see change, not just with new maps and skins but with the team's development process and attitude. To see "shields now have bigger kickbox lol" in patch notes and hear that a rework is never coming does the opposite of this.

The current model is not working. And it was frustrating and mindboggling to deal with in alpha too. Jax, I suspect that you're the lightning rod of abuse when it's probably not even your fault. You were admonished by the team for trying to show Frontline to the rest of us in the alpha. When I heard about that, I couldn't help but ask myself, WHY??????? Why was the #1 priority to "not show anything, to build up hype for our alpha players"? Why weren't we allowed to actually see the mode for ourselves and give input months before release so that perhaps the team could be directed into making a more fitting and better gamemode before it was too late? I feel as if the rest of the team is tying your hands and gagging you all the time. When you stream, I'm always hearing "...but I can't talk about that" from you.

Honestly, think of it as a relationship. You don't talk to your girlfriend one day and then just stop texting her for two weeks... that doesn't get people hyped. She's just gonna dump you. People are just gonna quit playing. Absence does NOT make the heart grow fonder... possibly one of the worst trite sayings being passed around as common wisdom. At the very least, it does not foster a healthy relationship.

And that's exactly what it is. The relationship between player and the devs is souring. The biggest problem isn't the melee combat; probably the opposite, that is its greatest strength and it's very obvious to release players that that is what the devs focused on 90% of the alpha. The new maps will alleviate the "lacks content" problem, but it's kind of like buying a new purse for your girlfriend - it's not a permanent solution if the root problems of your relationship aren't fixed and addressed.

The devs need to be able to find a system where they can hotfix and incrementally release smaller patches while simultaneously working on the big loads to come every month or so. That would be communication by showing good and timely acts. In the absence of patches, smaller engagements (text messages saying I love you with the cute smiley faces and shit) are needed. Right now that girlfriend doesn't feel loved, the guy's never texting her, he promises her that he's gonna land this huge deal and they're gonna get so much money and they're gonna move out to a better house and get a dog and it'll all be better, but what that girlfriend is asking for is to feel loved and present.

OP said:
Let's face it - the developers don't care what any of us want, and they never have to again. Mordhau's surprise success made them all millionaires overnight. Why on earth would they want to spend any of that money on a game that's already the overwhelming majority of money's it's ever going to make? If I were in their position, I'd say fuck Mordhau and enjoy early retirement.

Revenue =/= profit. Steam's cut, Unreal's cut, payments to employees around the globe, working with those foreign laws, and taxes. Let's imagine that Mordhau sold 2 million copies at an average cost of $29 (the game's price depends on the region and the means in which it was bought, e.g. first week sale, the 3000 kickstarter buyers, etc.).

2,000,000 x 29 = $58,000,000

Cool, but now Steam takes 30% off of that
58,000,000 * 0.7 = 40,600,000

Then Unreal takes 5% of that
40,600,600 * 0.95 = 38,570,000

Taxes vary immensely across the various countries... but European taxes are generally a lot higher than American taxes. I don't know how corporate vs personal taxes factor into all this, but my guess is that you take that above number and reduce it by the corporate tax rate, then it is again taxed by the personal tax rate.

Corporate Tax of 20% (Slovenia at 19%, but I'm not sure how this works with Triternion having people around the globe)
38,570,000 * 0.8 = 30,856,000

This is assuming 2 million copies sold, which I don't think is the case. Over a million is confirmed, which would be $15,428,000. One and a half million would be at $23,142,000, which is probably closer to reality.

This isn't even factoring in any of the loans and debts that marox and co. almost certainly had to undertake. There was a huge rush before release to push the game out due to "money". The devs had to live somehow with $0 income from Q4 2014- Q2 2019. Mordhau had some very strong guerilla marketing around release, whether they had to pay the big bucks for it or not is unknown cause it's quite literally none of our business.

Then as marox allocates that ~$23,142,000 to the 11 members of the team, each of them is taxed differently based on the bracket. I think that this tax rate can be as high as 50%, so even if you were a relatively huge contributor to the team and were about to receive $1 million, that could be reduced to $500,000 that you actually get to take. This sounds like a lot, but considering you weren't paid for 4.5 years, this averages to an annual income (not gross revenue) of $110,000. Certainly still good by most people's standards, but you weren't able to spend any of that for 4.5 years + this isn't your income anymore unless Mordhau miraculously sells at a static rate of 1.5 million copies per year. Certainly far from being able to retire. If I'm grievously wrong about how taxation in this scenario works, please feel free to call me out on it.

Chances are that the team members didn't evenly receive $2 mil as their gross income, not all members joined at the same time and some comparatively have easier jobs. People who aren't the CEO tend to get salaries and compensations based on their job.

"So is marox hogging all that gold for himself?"

He can, but I highly doubt he would given that he took the immense risk and trouble of developing Mordhau in the first place and continues to develop it (even though 99% of that process is currently hidden...). The dude has a PhD and several published papers in Computer Science... he could've become a CTO or some big shot elsewhere making a regular $250+k a year without all the stress and risk of developing a massive game.

Why on earth would they want to spend any of that money on a game that's already the overwhelming majority of money's it's ever going to make?

Because investment into a company fosters good will and a stream of revenue for the future. This is what Torn Banner didn't get and what a lot of short-sighted, greedy companies in general don't understand (and unfortunately, companies and politics in America is filled to the brim with that). Mordhau has room to reclaim big playercounts and grow beyond even that. If marox doesn't believe that, then yes, he should just take the money and run. But I feel as if he is motivated by things other than money considering he started Slasher alone, already has the skills to make very steady and good money, refuses to implement microtransactions, refused to find a publisher that would've made this whole process 100x easier, etc.

If I were in their position, I'd say fuck Mordhau and enjoy early retirement.

And that's probably why it is unlikely you (and most people including myself) would ever be in that position in the first place.

"Dude, if marox isn't hogging all the gold and didn't pay each of his employees a gorillion bucks, then that means they just have like ~$20 million lying around! Why aren't they getting more employees?"

As already mentioned, chances are that Mordhau already made of the majority of the amount of money it will ever make (unless it explodes again with some significant patch, which is possible and hopefully what happens - CSGO erupted with the skins update, Blizzard games had expansion packs which are just today's version of 2.0.1 and 3.0.1 patches, Minecraft took a few years to truly explode, Rainbow 6 Siege was more successful quite a bit post-launch than on release). The income of the company isn't $20 mil per year, but probably rather low now that the game has settled down and dried out. Yet, the salaries of all 11 employees must still be paid. In addition to that are server and upkeep costs.

Expanding the team and obtaining a studio has a double whammy in increasing these costs. Even expanding to "just" 20 employees means that those millions will dry up really fast if the team isn't making massive headways. It also doesn't have a guarantee of making processes faster but could potentially make things slower. New coders need to be trained up to speed, which is a long term process and investment. I don't necessarily agree with the team's stance on such matters, but for perspective's sake I mention all this. I do believe this is their general reason for not expanding yet + they still want to keep "the integrity of the game" in tact, so to speak.

But all that being said, I don't really know what I'm talking about. I am very open to being educated and corrected by someone more knowledgeable about such matters. This is all a crapshot.

1058 1696

Mordhau just isn't fun the way Chivalry was. Holding hopes for invasion but really, TO is what I want. Hopefully Invasion really is just TO but improved.

Aside from the disappointment FL has been there's also massive flaws in the combat itself.

In chivalry I had a whole playstyle revolving around only side hits/waterfalls and I didn't have to feint/delay drag or reverse; felt fun and took pride in not having to rape animations. But in Mordhau there's not really reliable side hits or satisfying waterfalls; only timing deceptions. You get hits either because someone didn't press their parry force field in time or because they pressed it too soon. This is not fun to me. Even shields have an absurdly massive parry size and they're not even fun for the shield users.

EVERYONE has the same playstyle in Mordhau. Better players know more tricks and read better but everyone is using mostly the same tactics... Only differences between players are which weapon's animations you choose to rape/cheese and whether you matrix/dodge alot and, prolly the most definitive difference between melee players of equal skill: whether you face hug or play range.

It's also not like Mordhau really cleaned up the cheese from Chivalry. SoW and Norse sword are still in Mordhau by different names. Messer is pretty obnoxious. Reverses were removed but attacks were sped up and sometimes I physically cannot press the parry or chamber button in time due to reaction and ping. Never had such issues in Chivalry at the same ping.

Don't even get me started on firebombs, rapier/shields in FL or cleaver bloodlust knights.

Also, I never NEVER felt like I was at a disadvantage for using a controller in Chivalry. I point out huge flaws in gamepads in Mordhau on countless threads only get made fun of on the forums for not being a keyboard nerd and to hear only silence from the devs on controller improvement.

It takes three. Whole. Seconds. To turn 360 degrees with max sensitivity on my controller in Mordhau. And I have been asking for AT THE VERY LEAST a sensitivity boost for controllers since 2017. Twenty. Seventeen.

I'm very disappointed in Mordhau and wish I hadn't spent so much money on an alpha key. Or wasting so many hours of my life playing the alpha.

DONT EVEN GET ME STARTED ON SHIELDS.

531 283
  • 14 Aug
 Gambit

That's great man I hope at least you are having fun? What's your steam ID btw?

Mercenary 176 611
  • 1
  • 30 Jul
 Stauxie

Casually clashes are fun as is, so they don't really need change.

Competitively, when it happens, people immediately stop the clash because it is basically gambling who gets the hit. People are advocating a nerf to clash in the form of "no clash on riposte." This avoids situations in teamfights where you are in riposte and have your riposte stopped not by defense, but a spammed attack by another user. It also has the unintended side effect of getting hit, having the clash occur, and getting hit again because your opponent clashed. Because of these problems, clashes will probably not proc on ripostes anymore.

Clashing in windup wouldn't work because that's when chambers occur.

I don't see why parrying out of clash is a bad thing. It grants freedom of the user to maintain clash fights or get out of it because it is too risky. Being locked in a clash fight would just be frustrating.

Increasing area for clashes to occur would also just be annoying, because of reasons I said earlier.

Clashes have barely been touched and for good reason.

Knight 693 1581
  • 5
  • 15 Aug
 das

My optimism has faded.

Recently, an interest in a shield rework was expressed, then decided against because devs believe it would do more harm than good to the game's playerbase with shield crutchers being deprived of hold-RMB. When the playerbase has shrunk so much, it's really strange to me that they are so afraid of taking a risk when by their own admission they say held-shields will never be fun and forever be fundamentally broken and clunky.

The stance on BR is unmoving. When I try to explain that the reason BR feels bad for the average player is because they wait minutes for a game to start, only to have it end in seconds, and that even a victory lasts just four minutes, the reply I get is - "if BR was any longer, no one would play it", missing the point of the criticism. Suggest a team-focused BR and you get replies of "that's not a Battle Royale like the book" or "we don't want to be like every other BR." ...The social aspect is 90% of the reason we even played games like PUBG, that we can squad up with our friends vs the world. Shows a disconnect with the casual players who don't just want a loner solo repeated random-weapon duel simulator.

I foresee a similar phenomenon for ranked 1v1 with the planned BO5/FT3 format for it. "The point is to have fast matches." Trying to explain the lack of time to adapt to cheese, and that the perception of not having enough time to adapt (whether it's a valid belief is NOT the most important factor here) to such things, falls on deaf ears. Their fear is that "losing 0 - 5 is going to feel slow and terrible for noobs". Isn't that what ELO is for? "No one wants to play a 9-round game". Except plenty of people would be glad to play a neck-to-neck bo9/ft5 that goes to 5 - 4... people of all skill levels love close matches... I really don't understand this part.

Frontline's story, map designs, and black ops development as a whole... this has been covered extensively by release players enough already.

I had high hopes Horde's potential and enjoyed its flow in Taiga in alpha (well, beta). But releasing it as is, especially with ladders and all, really struck me as odd. This and the fact that minute-job player clip brushes on Taiga trees were never added despite doing a rework on the bridges (which takes more than just a few minutes) also really strikes me as odd.

Weapon balance is the smallest offender imo. Everything's generally useable. Things like unreadable accels, broken stabs, and stamina warfare duels are problems with other systems, not the weapons and their values themselves. Even the purportedly overly safe low risk high reward weapons like Zweis and Halberds and Spears would be balanced if they were highly compelled to wear mail torso or forced to give up helmet + lvl 2 legs entirely if they wanted plate torso (so that even a BS/LS can one or two shot them with precision).

Even the expectations for their own game feels low. "It was naturally going to fall to a regular 5k, the genre is too niche." At the same time, they are so undermanned that that may be a realistic assessment rather than a sabotaging self-fulfilling prophecy. It's hard to say though. But what I do know is that, beyond just the core melee mechanics, there is some unrealized potential gestalt of a game that so many of my IRL friends who have never touched Chivalry (or have sub-10 hours) were really hyped for. We played a boatload of Mordhau, were disappointed by things like lack of team BR and the FL maps, but had a blast with dueling, farming pubs, seeing people get ballista'd and catapulted while yelling, etc. It used to just be the lack of manpower that, while saddening, made me understanding of the devs' limitations and timelines. However, I can no longer be naively optimistic about decisions irrespective of time that being made. There seems to be some sort of disconnect with players both current and prospective, as evidenced by the level designs, modes being released in their state, comments on game modes, etc. Mordhau is a strange experience where extreme love and detail is evident in things like the melee system, and then utter detachment and lack of direction is palpable in other aspects. Highly detailed and beautiful maps outfitted with boring lighting and horrendous, worse-than-Team Fortress Classic early maps' chokepoints and design choices.

Maybe these two new maps and 1v1 ranked mode will be awesome. I won't be around to try myself for their release assuming it's coming this quarter. Mordhau has a base that can take it back to 30k+ concurrent players on the regular imo. Whether or not that can be realized before SDK, and whether or not it ever will, I guess I'll see when I randomly check up steamdb a couple years later.

tbh a "Laserswords" mode would be able to circumvent a lot of the problems even the combat system of this game is bound to.

Wall jumps, as an advanced analog movement option, which helps immensely in not getting surrounded in 1vX and adds enormous dynamics and verticality. It was one thing Mirage did really right: constant movement and outmaneuvering. Force play in general just has high potential if it's analog, highly controllable, and most importantly, not too floaty.

Stormtrooper projectiles, slower than arrows and much noisier both visually and aurally, making them much easier to react to and thus parry so they feel less cheap. In return, these are blasters you can repeatedly shoot (unless sniper), and shooting against other blaster bros is more akin to traditional FPS. Basically, a lasersword guy is untouchable if you're using a blaster in a 1v1, but have two blasters from different angles and he has to be much more tactical about his positioning now. Adds actual strategy and tactics rather than just being ranged annoyance.

part 2: https://mordhau.com/forum/topic/19472/lets-face-it-mordhau-is-dying-and-we-all-know-why/?page=3#c50

Conscript 183 471
 Shovonem

There has been many debates about the existence of 3rd person in Mordhau. I never really wanted the 3rd person to be removed mostly because there are players who come from 3rd person games like Mount & Blade and such and removing such feature will decrease the playerbase. However, that does not change the fact that 3rd person gives some very unfair advantage over 1st in team fights as you can still look from corner, kind of look behind and all the 'good stuff' .... you get the idea. Some people have said that it's harder to read attack from 3rd (maybe)... However, there are players who use both and keep switching as they are fighting in team fights. And that's probably the biggest problem. Because even if 3rd has some disadvantages it completely mitigates that.

Here are some clips that I have found from a player of top tier Russian competitive clan (I am not shit talking the guy/calling him anything just to be clear so no salt):

https://clips.twitch.tv/EagerViscousWaspCurseLit

https://clips.twitch.tv//BlindingHungryFriseeKippa

https://clips.twitch.tv/SavoryBombasticWerewolfHoneyBadger

As you will see in the clip, the guy typically plays 1 v 1 with 1st person (I guess it's easier to read attacks). However, whenever he runs away, engage multiple enemies he uses 3rd person quite intelligently. You can call it skill ceiling if you want but I don't think anyone want to see this game devolve into this. If it remains, a lot of competitive games will probably eventually turn into this as this seems quite optimal.

If 3rd person remains, Here are some tweaks I suggest:

  1. Make it so it's harder to peek corner & harder to know surrounding.. It was done to some degree in a patch before release as far as I remember but it's not enough.

  2. Make it so the players have to choose between 1st/ 3rd person and once the map loads and it can not be changed while in a game. It is very crucial because that way 3rd person will have it's advantages and disadvantages.

  3. Identify the other 'not so discussed' advantages and disadvantages of both.. I am talking about things like: doing extreme drags with 3rd person being easier and less risky as you can keep track of your enemy all the time. better footworking and dodging for the same reason, target switching in team engagement MUCH easier and so on.. then balance it out in a way where they are more similar and both are fair in their own way.

Any feedback is appreciated.