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80 286
  • 2
  • 24 Jan '19
  • The main discrepancy in the justification of this proposed change revolves around what a punish ought to be/what you think a punish is. Essentially what you are asking for is a guaranteed window of damage where your opponent just has to watch themselves take a hit for what I would consider to be a very very minor (and sometimes it's intentional) mistake. You can argue all you want about how the burden is then on the player that missed to dodge or do some cool movement as a way to react to this guaranteed damage window, but that isn't a practical/viable response (especially for new players). You don't seem to view forcing a cftp as punishment because it is a "slight stam disadvantage". I don't know about you, but losing 20-25 of my total stamina with just one move is a pretty hefty price to pay even more so if you're CFTPing constantly in a fight. That's fine though; the game shouldn't have stamina as the only punish because then it devolves into stamina warfare obviously. Coincidentally, however, forcing a significant stamina advantage off of a CFTP is not the only punish available to you. RB/Giru have already mentioned the punishes available to you, but you seem to dismiss these as punishes because of potential that you will be gambled. Morphing/dragging ensures that you aren't able to be gambled in scenarios like the ones you have in your video -- your opponent is parrying so incredibly early that you really should just be dragging or morphing him every time. It's no different than punishing a player who parries super early. Likewise, the potential to be gambled/read when you go to feint someone's combo windup certainly exists but that doesn't mean it isn't a feasible punish. That's like suggesting feints are ineffective because there always exists a chance that your enemy will just gamble into it. Regardless, that sort of interaction of potential gamble or them even reading your feint is good interaction, I think. This is the sort of depth RB was hinting at in his posts. In any case, as a player you always have choices/decisions to make in combat. This is no different: if you're concerned about the potential to be gambled/read, just take the stamina punish. Misses like the ones shown in the video, in my opinion, are not significant enough mistakes to warrant a guaranteed damage window. This would be especially brutal for new players who have little sense of range and constantly swing around missing. To be fair though I don't think in noob vs noob combat the noob would be punishing misses like these so the guaranteed damage window actually wouldn't be too bad. No way to be sure without watching noob gameplay/talking to noobs which leads me to the next point.
  • Similar to the feint thread that around a while ago, why are we speculating and putting out bold assumptions of what noobs are going to enjoy/feel/do? Based off of Shroud's gameplay, to me it appears that newer players don't really have any sense of punishment meaning that a guaranteed damage window or what we have now wouldn't affect a noobs intuition. Perhaps I'm wrong though, I don't really know -- I'm just going off of what I saw in Shroud's gameplay. Maybe we should ask some newer players about this supposed intuition to punish? This kind of change is derived from what you view as problematic with combat, not directly from what noobs view as problematic. You just talk about the intuition of noobs as a nice little supporting piece of 'evidence' for this change.
  • There are far-reaching implications if a change like this were to happen. I'll list them out and if you're confused I'd be more than happy to elaborate:

1 . Feels clunky
2 . Destroys a lot of important elements in teamplay
3 . CF window is already small -- you're taking away the ability to micro feint or even do a moderate feint thus leaving the player with only deep combo feints which is just taking away options/depth from the player.
4 . Happy feet would become a dominant/oppressive strategy with a guaranteed damage window like the one proposed. (1vx also probably fucked as a result)
5 . The only positive implication that I could think of would be a more grounded/methodical look to combat. Basically, players would engage more carefully and range play would have more merit. However, this would probably slow down the game considerably and discourage aggressive plays.
6 . Guaranteed damage never feels good (insiders, kick stun, etc)

Knight 528 3385
  • 3 Oct '18

this clever conspiracy perpetrated by the dev team in order to draw attention away from the current patch 17 stabs by bringing to light the discussion of unspoken rules and social ineptitude (all your interactions with other social beings, while completely free from rules by default, bring with them the consequence of the person you communicate with reacting to what you say negatively or positively) may have worked on all these sheep but it wont work on me, i know what you guys are up to, i can see past your smoke and mirrors, i can peek my head through this painted curtain of fabricated drama and discourse where you trace your feet in the sand at the moot notion of concrete rules, i can smell the fictitious odor emanating from this facade of a thread, nice try sir, truly i mean it, but im afraid your efforts are in vain. This steel cage of a noodle, this impenetrable mine field of a noggin is far too astute in the art of deception to fall victim to this most odorous of scheme. To think you can fool me is to reveal yourself as the real fool! This ban is all a hoax! This thread is but conjecture! Dont be fooled by the detractors!

Knight 528 3385
  • 7
  • 30 Aug '18

perk where you can just take people's unequipped weapons, could call it like Pick Pocket or something

what about a perk like Bloody Mess from fallout where when you kill someone you get extra gore, like the old cleaving people in half from Slasher, or just making someone explode when you hit them with the maul

crush already said no to me about a cannibal perk where you can eat your fallen foes or allies but i still think its a sick idea for roleplaying as a dungeon goblin or just a really hungry fat guy

should Def add a perk that lets you ragdoll on command since ragdolling is already in the game, bonus points if you trip people who run over your ragdoll and make them ragdoll too, could call it like Faint or something i dunno

maybe a cheesey perk where landing on someone just instakills them

crush also didnt like the idea of teeth having tracers, and having the cannibal perk let you just bite people mid fight like a quick snack to give you some health for each chomp you take out of an enemy, it could be like any attack with a windup, but yaknow its your mouth closing so as long as someone is like in between your teeth you can take a nice bite out of them, good anti facehug too since you can put your head in someone elses head and like eat their brains. I guess blocking it could do damage to your teeth or something idk

bro horses can poop already, why not a perk that just lets you take a dump, theres even already a squat emote, just call it Defecate or something, super simple, you can throw it or just leave it there i guess

maybe a perk where you can do a super stab and the weapon gets stuck in the guy you stabbed and it does more damage or something

jedi/witcher deflection perk where blocking an arrow sends it flying wherever you look which is probably gonna be at the archer that shot you, idk maybe if youre slick you can fuckin curve that shit at another enemy

a perk where instead of riding a horse, you crawl up inside of it and hide, could call it Trojan, so like you trick people to ride it so you can pop out and surprise them unless they kill the horse like i always do just in case, the warmth could even make your health and stamina regain a little faster too

105 685
  • 25 Aug '18
 Spook — UI


13 22
  • 13 Aug '18

Sorry boys, no new patch for you. Egirls have come to town! sorryboys.png

80 286
  • 2
  • 10 Jul '18

Disclaimer: I play on super low settings and 60hz and black bars, so the stream isn't meant to be nice on the eyes. The point in me streaming and the following post is just talking about gameplay. Watch as much or as little as you want.

During the past few weeks I've been playing without chambers completely - even stabs. It's not too much different from how I used to play because even when I did chamber I did so very rarely. If I were to break it down into a parry-chamber ratio, I'd say that I used 90% parry 10% chamber, but now it's 100% - 0%. I do this because I believe it's the ideal way to play the game, both in terms of winning and improving as a player. However, I also play like this and get away with it because I have the skill set to back it up which is an argument bound to pop up when talking about feints. And yes, I do have thousands of chiv hours and already several hundred mordhau hours. But you don't need tons of hours to be able to read feints effectively in mordhau.

Another reason I play like this is because I think chambers are horrible (not conceptually, just in current execution). The current meta sees the vast majority of players attempting to chamber nearly every attack, and, if they fail, they simply FTP. This results in gameplay that just involves doing some disgusting unreadable drag nearly every attack because the whole focus shifts to just stopping them from chambering. It feels great to chamber a bunch of hits and completely dominate someone by virtue of 'skill', but at the same time it feels like complete shit playing against that kind of style. This kind of polarizing mechanic isn't very competitive or fun. Furthermore, a distinction needs to be made: current chambers are by no means OP, however they are incredibly unhealthy for the game. What I've listed so far is pretty broad, so here's why I personally don't like them:

  1. They reward bad players
    By bad players I mean players that have very little understanding of the fundamentals that make up mordhau: footwork, hard-reading, feint placement, interesting/unique swing manipulation like waterfalls or z-stabs, mitigation, anything that is basic. Chambers, being the best theoretical move in nearly every situation (not practical; don't forget), means that there is less emphasis on other skills since chambers end up being the bulk of the fight and also generally outclass any other kind of move you can do (theoretically, not always practically). It's similar to chiv in that the game, by the current iteration of chambers, is allowing bad players to strive. You could become 'competitive' relatively quickly in chiv by simply refining your parry and maybe being able to read just a few basic feints and then backswinging constantly and forcing trades. This is where the distinction is important as well. It's not as if that was op or problematic for top tier players. Top tier players would always remain top tier because they have the fundamental skills. But relative to the rest of the population, or maybe even just mediocre competitive players, emphasizing reverses and trades was a quick and easy way to become competitive. It didn't really leave much room for improvement though, and, as a result, I think that it diminished some of the competitiveness of chiv. In chambers I see a similar, almost identical, issue.

  2. Chambers far exceed their intended goal
    Chambers were intended to be a tool to deal with feints, not a better parry. Right now chambers are used as a primary parry rather than something used to mitigate difficult feints. Hell, people don't even bother reading before they chamber. They just chamber as soon as they see a windup and then ftp. Chambers take away from the rest of the game.

  3. Chambers are highly oppressive
    Having someone someone chamber you even just one time in a fight means they have a significant stamina advantage. They just got a free parry. That might not seem like much, but keep in mind that's just ONE chamber. Over the course of an entire fight, the amount of artificial stamina created can amount to hundreds if the fight prolongs itself. This creates a odd situation where being the one to initiate or even having the initiative can be detrimental. Of course you are always at risk when you attack someone; they could riposte or wait and feint immediately after the parry window, but these are minor risks. The risk of your attack being chambered is extremely high and absurdly oppressive. You lose stamina (not literally, but at the theoretical/macro level you do), you lose initiative, and chambers can be feinted which is scary since that's basically a riposte feint except with a speed boost. I know someone will be quick to refute and say "just chamber back" which leads me to my next point,

  4. Chambers are too ping-reliant and generally feel like RNG
    I don't really need to delve into the idea of ping too much. You have a 200ms window where the mixups can sometimes be unreadable (unreadable with a 200ms window that is, not necessarily entirely unreadable say with parry). When players have anything beyond 40 ping, chambers become incredibly inconsistent. As for feeling like rng, well it just does I think. Whether you're performing them or trying to avoid being chambered, there is always a lingering feeling of uncertainty. A part of this is ping, another part is that players, as I outlined earlier, don't read - they gamble. Getting chambered just because your opponent decided that just this one time they'd wait super long to chamber or maybe chamber immediately (because they're guessing or playing off of patterns) feels like total garbage. Likewise, the power of drags is emphasized heavily because everyone is trying to do unchamberable drags. As a result, people who chamber a lot probably also feel like chambering is a bit rng.

The meta is going to shift.

Those that pay attention and read what the devs post here and there probably can guess that some big changes are coming. The purpose of this post is varying. I want to tell you why I think chambers are shit. I also want you to see that the ideal way to play is by mastering the fundamentals. Some people likely think I'm gimping myself by playing without chambers, but clearly I do just fine without using them at all. I also want to reiterate to those who have a negative opinion of feints that it really isn't that hard to read attacks in mordhau. Go ask Shuugs. The man put in 40 hours into chiv and is one of the best players in mordhau atm playing with primarily hard reads.

4 18
  • 12 Jun '18

disarm needs to be more punishing that's my only current gripe

988 6972
  • 6 Jun '18
 marox — Project Lead

We are working on a lot of stuff in parallel, some older WIP things are being implemented and finalized, and some things are broken as a result, which prevents us shipping builds in between. Among things that are being actively implemented and are rendering the update unshippable until finished at the moment are:

  • voice commands and replacement of all voices: this takes time, as things are still coming in and we're hoping to ship the update with 3 voices at least, but only have 1 implemented right now. (That'd be a lot of UGH UGH UGH AGH AGH AGH repetition if we shipped just 1 voice)

  • new maps (or expansions of existing maps, several are going on in parallel here)

  • horse movement rework to be less annoying and glitchy, some additional animation work to make them more lively creatures when changing directions

  • locational wounds

  • perks

  • bows and crossbows

  • crosshair work (angles, indicators for various things)

There's other things at work such as work on Frontline, but we absolutely need to finish those listed up above before we're able to ship this update.

Knight 528 3385
  • 1
  • 25 May '18

doing this in mordhau is actually waaaaaay easier than doing it in chiv. The parry is more consistently exploitable. In chiv youre up against a parrybox that is only really more exploitable on the side of the weapon where the stab comes out of. There is literally less parrybox there, and if your windup travels through their parry windup, it doesnt matter where it lands, it will parry.

You also dont need to aim at the weapon, you parry looking at the sky, looking at god so its easier to pray that your parry wont desync. Mordhau has none of that, its extremely easy to get through a parry in mordhau compared to Chiv.

They even made it easier to bypass through the top of the head. Looking at headheight is exploitable, looking slightly up, slightly down, etc. They have their different ways to maneuver and bypass around the parry. In chiv you mostly just try to outlast the parry or make them panic parry early so you can pseudodrag

It would be great to have them more telegraphed. There are cases where you can either hit the top of the head or the legs. Both go through the parry if you parry at headheight. Parrying at the sky exposes your legs. Parrying at the legs exposes your sky. Its a GNARLY thing that I dont think many people are aware of. Not the ones wiz was doing, im talking about one like this

Knight 528 3385
  • 25 May '18

Its probably easier for you to hit around a random joe's parry in chiv because it was so easy to parry. Effort was low, confidence high.

Consider it. "Oh I just have to stare at sky". It is true but it builds a LAZY habit and is not transferable to Mordhau. Its easier to hit around parries in mordhau because there is less parry box than chiv, and its consistent. Theres no desync. It is easier in that respect, its Harder because if you want to parry, you have to try. You have to put more effort into it. You are more aware of your parrying. One of the ways i'd hit around parries in chiv during 5v5s relied in me knowing the guy I was hitting liked to bestow his faith upon the sky god during parries so I could do some over the top side attack to ensure it would work, and also recognizing the strange flash of recovery animation that would play randomly when you parry someone, where if someone parries during it, attacks go through the parry. No clue how many people noticed that besides me.

Most people in chiv couldnt tell if they were hitting around a parry or just out-lasting it. Its easy in chiv because there is literally less parrybox on the stab-side of whatever weapon, and people dont try as hard to follow the weapon to parry. (Parry also sometimes just desyncs, you can tell this happens when you lose turncap)

The games are different, when I say its easier in mordhau, its because I can explain why it should be easier in the gameplay and the reasons for it are greater than in chiv. If its not easy, its probably because whoever I fight stops me from exploiting the reasons why it should be (if I have complete confidence in my ability to hit around a parry). The same is true for chivalry.

It took me a long time to figure out how to do much of anything in Chiv, I didn't care. There were always secrets to find in chivalry because of the freedom in combat and abundance of bugs. I went into mordhau with that same thought, and was given the same results except I found almost no bugs that were not already known. All my chiv hours really did was wise me up to what I needed to pay attention to in order to learn faster and find weird tricks.

80 286
  • 3
  • 16 May '18

These clips were put together fairly quickly and against players not who are not necessarily top tier (the exception being Shuugs, one of the best players). As a result, these are not the cleanest or most accurate portrayal of these mechanics. However, I do the exact same things to the best of the best -- anyone that has fought me can attest to this. Some clips are unrealistic (for example landing 3 waterfalls in a row) but the main point here is to show that waterfalls are viable and the footwork to deal with drags/insta hits. You'll notice there aren't that many chambers because what happens is the attacks miss me. They either miss or connect instantly. This is how I personally deal with the attacks that are tough to read. It's obviously not 100% consistent because that would break the game, but I can perform these maneuvers enough to what I would consider consistent.

Waterfalls are not the only way to bypass parry, there are a plethora of unique things you can do. I chose waterfalls because they are a basic and well-known move that stems all the way from early chiv days.

I have also included two bonus clips for those interested in what it looks like for stabs (the footwork for stabs is near 100% consistency):

Knight 697 1611
  • 2
  • 13 May '18

If your idea of fun is ridiculous drag potential and Patch 1 turncaps and such, that's your opinion. I think the vast majority prefer the more "balanced" turncaps of right now because drags and such are much more readable than they used to be while still remaining potent and viable.

But if you're going to say Mordhau has less meaningful options and freedom than Chivalry overall, you're just plain wrong.

Daggers and shortswords are already terrible for parries, they have low stam negation. They are also god awful at chambering because they're so short (reach affects chambering, you can test this with a spear and then a dagger, see the difficulty and difference in chamber timing needed).

Then why did just as many people hate feints?

Someone else already answered this. Reverses looked straight up stupid and were unintuitive to fight. Feints were just overpowered because they were no means to counterplay them besides hard reading/straight up guessing (lol hard reading SoW feints). Two very different problems, and two very different reasons for hating them. You're not being fair, whether purposely or not I'm not sure.

Mordhau has chambers, which soft to hard counter feints depending on the circumstances (it's not static and black-and-white - instead, it's dynamic and "emergent"; sometimes feints will bait and be able to punish a bad chamber attempt! Sounds like an opportunity to spice up one's playstyle if they prefer this method of fighting). Look at that, feint play is suddenly a lot more balanced, complex, and "emergent" all at once in Mordhau than in Chivalry, to the point that some top tier players don't offensively feint much while others use it every other strike.

Meanwhile, if you didn't feint in Chivalry and weren't using Maul, you were doing it wrong, period. Alice was a top player... in 2012 where half of these "emergent" techs weren't even discovered or used yet. Top Chivalry players today would demolish a non-feinting 2012 Alice. I challenge you to name a competitive player who doesn't feint and has been relevant in the literal past half-decade. Pubstomping doesn't count, my friend literally goes 270 - 20 in Moorland Skirmishers with Messer/Zwei drags alone but surprise surprise he starts feinting when he duels me. And no, I won't believe Flail is viable unless you show me footage of you trumping relevant players in duels or skirmishes.

You shouldn't be blaming the game if you aren't using the tools it gives you. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean it should work against the top players. I want to play a no-parry, no-chamber, all-dodging dagger-only loadout and have it be viable! Except if this were viable, the base game would be incredibly stupid because that means doing the same thing but with parries, chambers, and a better weapon than a dagger would be atrociously overpowered. Same concept with the drags; I want to be able to draw a Harry Potter Z or rainbow around my opponents' parries, except that would look not only incredibly stupid but be way too powerful.

The beauty of pubs is you can do stupid shit like fists only and have it work, and this will remain a thing in Mordhau! What's more, Mordhau is going to have significantly more "emergent" maps if the test map is anything to go by. Horses, interactable gates, breakable doorways, MOBILE catapults... There's a lot more room for weird and sandboxy stuff (I thnk they have caltrops planned, for instance) and thus dynamic strategies (e.g. focusing efforts on protecting a catapult positioned strategically, with some guys defending and one guy using a mallet to repair).

Add a weapon that can't feint, but has beastly drags or something

It's called a Zwei. Pitiful offensive feints, but has some of the best drags and morphs (and combinations of the two) in the game. Very good defensive feint and morph timings too because of the long windups, so it's significantly easier to morph chamber and FTP with Zwei than with, say, Rapier. This complements a defensive playstyle well.

If you want fully emergent gameplay, there's Reverence!:

Except wait, total freedom just becomes kind of stupid without any limitations to play around. There has to be a balance. If you think Mordhau doesn't have a good balance of freedom and balanced gameplay, that's your opinion. But there is such a thing as "too much" and a reason why a game can't go all out.

Let's take a look at Super Smash Bros. 64. That game's hitstun was so ridiculous that you could combo basically anything into anything else. Now, Super Smash Bros. Melee, though still holding a good combo game, is a lot more limited, and combos tend to drop way earlier than in Smash 64. The result is that in SSB64, you get a shit ton of 0-death and relatively easy kill combos. In Melee, you have to generally work way harder for those kills. This is why the former has 5 stocks and the latter 4 stocks in competitive play. For many people, the latter is more interesting and fun, both on the receiving and dishing out side.

Now let's see how "emergent" top level Chivalry is.

A Maul is coming swinging at you. You're low on stamina. You:

Go for a matrix or evade. Except the enemy isn't bad and knows this is an option so he adjusts accordingly. He hits you, you die. Unless you still parry, in which case you stam out and get stunned. You die.

Go for a chamber. You can't chamber in Chivalry, he hits you. You die.

Go for a flinch. Even if you hit him first, FHF doesn't exist. He trades. You die.

Go for a parry. You're not bad so you can account for drags and instant reverse. Even so, you stam out and get stunned. You die.

Now let's have the same scenario play out in Mordhau. Your opponent is swinging a maul, you have low health and stamina:

Go for a matrix or evade. Even if you can't get a complete dodge, matrixes and evasions force weapons to drag and hit you later, allowing you yourself to soft manipulate and make chamber and parry timings easier.

Go for a chamber. But a-hah. Here is where it gets interesting. The maul player may have dragged, so it's important that you wait and be patient to time the chamber. Or he may have accel'd, in which case you better have chambered earlier. Or maybe he's going for a morph! Hope you were patient and waited accordingly. But, if you see that he's going for a morph DRAG while you have a fast weapon, you can beat him to the punch and flinch him! He won't hit trade you. However, telling between a drag and accel can be hard if you're standing still or crouching, so I hope you were footworking and running to the side to manipulate the timings he can land on you and make chambering easier!

Go for a flinch. Read the scenario above. A raw flinch attempt is a gamble that he's dragging, but going for it with something like a Rapier when you see that he is morphing and dragging very late is a surefire way to turn momentum around. What an "emergent" solution that goes against the "my turn, your turn" grain of Chivalry!

Go for a parry. You're not bad, so you can parry even a dragged Maul. But you were low on stamina, so you get DISARMED. Suddenly, another box of options opens up:

You go for the punch. Maybe you land a hit on him, or maybe he parries and ripostes onto you. You can still attempt an evade at this moment, but chances are you're dead.

You pretend to go for the punch but feint it. He falls for it, then you punch him for real and then swap or grab a weapon! Or maybe he chambers it (fists are pretty hard to chamber due to ambiguous animations, direction, and even some draggability - yes, FISTS can drag) in which case you're boned.

You run away IMMEDIATELY! Hope you got a secondary, but this is a pretty safe option unless you're full plate and the Maul dude is naked or something due to Mordhau's disarm temporary sprint bonus.

You go for a kick. This will be epic either way - you stun him or you hit air and he smashes your face in.

Disarmed is a bad state to be in but not exactly insurmountable, even among top tier players. Honestly, this leads to some very "emergent", clutch, and hilarious scenarios, which you definitely would witness if you've played enough Mordhau.

I really, really don't see what's so "emergent" about Chivalry. That game feels way more solved and linear than Mordhau. Every duel with something on the line ends up as SoW knight vs SoW knight. It's just turn-based feint simulator, which turns into yellow bar simulator if no one has died fast enough. You're not going to matrix or Vanguard-helicopter your way out against an actual good player (I don't give a shit what you can do against a random pubber, I can kill them with just fists or throwing knives). Your options are limited, the five super "emergent" mixups are the only viable ones (feint, rispote accel, no riposte, footdrag, reverse), and you straight up LOSE with ZERO options and freedom with yellow bar math simulation game when low on stamina.

The many options you have in Mordhau all are meaningful and lead to different scenarios and dynamics. The same can't be said for Chivalry's "variety" of options and weapons.

Knight 697 1611
  • 13 May '18

I don't get the gloominess about "lack of playstyles". Chivalry had: SoW feint spam, Maul spinneroos, Messer spinneroo and feint spam, MAA dodge and stab, and Vangaurd spinneroo and feint spam. The options you have in Mordhau are not only more numerous but actually viable. Chivalry, the lack of FHF and parry being the only defensive option (thus making yellow bar stupidly important) actually limited a lot of potential playstyles.

Wanna play facehug with an axe? Go for it.

Wanna play facehug with a rapier? Strap on that full plate armor and go for it. Wanna play distance, pokey, and bait-and-punish instead with a rapier? Strip off some armor, go for it. Same weapon.

You've got a lot of options with versatile weapons like the 2h swords. Aggressive feints and chambers for a fast style. Defensive attrition play for a slow one that capitalizes on enemy mistakes and puts them on the ropes with low stamina. Mix it up with drags. Mix up the drags themselves. One particularly good one is to stab low and, if they chamber stab but DON'T morph it, counter stab chamber UPWARDS and do a sky -> head stabdrag while they're still aiming down. There is NOTHING like that in Chivalry.

Defensive and aggressive playsyles are so much more pronounced in even the top levels of Mordhau. Chivalry's a lot more rigid, you'd know this if you ever played up there past 2012's "feints are too cheap" meta.

Knight 253 546
  • 11 May '18

I do agree that the game feels very much explored, however the way players interact with the combat has changed over time but they are subtle differences. I think the final layer that could reasonably be added to the combat are either perks or more weapon specials for more weapons (think like the billhook pull but more gameplay changing). This would open up more strategies and play styles. Maybe the game just doesn't resonate with you, Roshawn, and that's fine. I would never go back to chivalry after mordhau, and that's my opinion.

Knight 697 1611
  • 11 May '18

Have you considered that it's because we did so much exploring on Chivalry already? Imagine if Chivalry never existed and this game got released out nowhere with zero cool or educational Youtube from Jax, moosey, Sharantil, Giru, etc. You'd probably have the same half-decade slow meta optimization and discovery process of matrixing, spacing, aiming, etc. We've discovered the big, obvious, macro mechanics long ago. There's still a lot of subtle depth not being touched imo. I'll elaborate furthermore.

I play mainly with US West Coast, which means I do play a bit with some US Central and East, but the best players there tend to only Private Skirmish these days.

Gauntlet and Bob Sapp are two good examples of players comfortable with a blisteringly fast playstyle. With weapons like Bastard Sword or some other 1hander, their aim is to condition you with a barrage of riposte and chamber accels, then mix it up with morphs (punish blind counterchambers), chamber feints and empty ripostes (punish parries). The Bastard Sword in particular is quite versatile because it can drag a bit like a 2h. Unfortunately, I can't have a fair superspeed 1h vs 1h with them because either one of us is gonna lag.

GAY FISH has a pretty solid and underrated "neutral" imo. He's among the best at baiting and initiating a fight that has yet to start. Very good spacing and matrixing. A lot of people telegraph pretty badly and don't give much consideration to a duel in that beginning phase when neither player has attacked, or when the fight has reset with neither player flinched or out of turn (thus, neutral).

Nauleaus, wizardish, and Huggles really ingrained in me just how essential footwork is in tandem with chambering and overall defense. Combine this with GAY FISH's matrixing to force later hits/whiffs, and your defense feels so much more in your control. Still not common, but I think people are slowly starting to utilize more and more waterfall/wessex drags. Not the most reliable thing, but it's good against stationary chamber bois and can screw over even regular parry attempts with their deceitfulness.

Speccing and playing against Prince is always a good "barometer" of sorts in learning how to play with and against stab drags. It's taken me a long, long time but I've finally understood how stab drags play out on both sides of the fence (well that and the recent patches make it look less silly lol). Both my defense against stabs and my estoc/rapier gameplay have improved tremendously in the past 3 or so days just from conscietous practice and observance with the one player everyone here loves to hate.

You want to diagonal strafe AWAY from the hand he's winding up with (go WITH the stab flow, not AGAINST it). If his hand is raised (thus starting a "high" stab), do a crouch tilt back matrix and chamber a little late, you're forcing him to do a late stab drag by taking advantage of his turn cap since you're "dodging". Your smaller hitbox also disallows him from doing mid to headshot drags. Since he started winding up high, he won't have the turn cap to do a headshot to foot drag with a stab. If he's aiming lower, it could be a side stab or aimed at the foot. Sprinting sideways will buy you time to chamber the former reliably. For the latter, doing that and aiming low should suffice.

So let's say YOU are Prince. How do you start gnawing at the defenses at a guy who knows how to chamber your stab drags? Start using your strikes like a quarterstaff! Estoc and alt spear have blistering speed LMBs that are ALSO really long. Mix up those chamber feints and morphs, ripostes, heck even drags because of their lengths. Condition your enemy to move in a way so that, when you morph or riposte back into a stab, they'll be caught "in the middle" of your stream and have immense difficulty reading/guessing which side you'll stab drag to. The worst scenario to be in against a spear stab is backpedalling with no lateral movement; from here, he can drag from sky to head, side to left, side to right, torso to lower, and any combination of these since you're not footworking to limit his options. Of course you can parry. If he's conditioned you enough to parry in these troubling spots, whose to say he won't feint the next time your feet are tied?

The way I approach the same people with Zwei, Rapier, Estoc, Battle Axe is all pretty different man! I adopt different philosophies in range playing (or lack of -> facehugging unga bunga me axe man), mixup "patterns" (more morphs on Zwei rather than feints, more parries and feints on Rapier because it's tough to FTP or morph with it), and emphasisbon aiming. I love adopting to enemy reactions and their own unique adaptations. For instance, I headshot Prince with my rapier aftee he falls for a feint. He begins crouch 180ing when he falls for a feint, thus dodging my headshot attempts. If I whiff and didn't combo, that's bad news. Now, he's soft forcing me to aim for torso hits as feint punishes, which is significantly less damage. Or, I disarm him or successfully feint him from a distance. His reaction is to 180 and sprint - darn I can't reach him! Except oh wait, I'll chuck my damn sword at him!

Forget about duels. There's so much freedom in how you want to approach team fights and what "role" you wish to play. You can play nimble, backstabbing rat with a rapier, flinching enemies any moment they don't look at you. Or, similarily nimble footed, you can wield a mighty Zwei, Halberd, or Maul instead and sneak up for some nasty headshot and cleaves. Or you can play more with the team and support them with pokes from the backlines with spear, halberd, or Zwei. Maybe you prefer 1hers but want to be more of a frontliner? Well, how about a shield + 1h messer, bastard sword, or shortspear? Fire pots and smoke pots leave a lot of room for clever play, and this will undoubtedly be even moreso with Frontline maps. And we haven't even considered archers or cavalry and potential counterplay styles to them... Billhook + caltrops, anyone?

1315 2881
  • 27 Apr '18

@Koda said:
Standing still is the best way to demonstrate the combat mechanics in the game as they are. Footwork just mitigates the broken-ness of it.

This is a huge misunderstanding on your part.

The game is footwork + combat mechanics.

He wouldn't have been able to pull off this attack without employing footwork himself. You employ your footwork to counter his footwork and deny him an effective deception. Stop crouching and you won't have issues, you're quite literally gimping yourself by not utilizing a huge core mechanic. The only real issue here is the visuals of the attack, which is a thing that can be talked about, but gameplay wise there's no problem here.

Count 671 1131
  • 19 Apr '18

hello reithur, good luck

Mercenary 2193 3914
  • 4 Mar '18

There are threads to post feedback into, you are just promoting your own badly recorded, edited (If it is edited even) videos in separate topics everytime in a most cringe way. I just don't understand how you don't see it.

I try not to insult or offend you really tbh, couldn't care less. Its just the spam and bad content that gets me and how you can't notice it.

Hey guys here is a me saying: 'Hello' videos and here, another video where I ask 'How you doing?'. I'll just post those videos in 2 topics, why not amiright ?

Express your thoughts anyway you like, so am I. Trying to say what could make your vids better, where to post it, how to present it to audience. You take it offensive way, not really my problem duderino.

Ermehgerd, tenks fur forgiveng mi

Knight 528 3385
  • 9 Feb '18

tried it out, if you do it on a chamber correctly you can make your chamber feints unpunishable but telegraphed to look pretty convincing. You can always do it correctly if you just make a macro btw so it seems kinda gay but maybe thats just me being homophobic