Mordhau
 Bɑbɑг
  • Likes received 6
  • Date joined 10 May '19
  • Last seen 8 Aug '19

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@ToLazy4Name said:
They'll balance it so that things are good and not bad very simple and easy think

pounding own head with huge oversized club. oog ug no like think

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  • 23 Jul '19
 CatR

Really boggles my mind how someone can expend time and effort to write hundreds of words on how words don't contain meaning. I'm starting a march to end marches.

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  • 19 Jul '19
 SWSeriousMike

Sounds pretty good to me, but you haven't mentioned hiring. IMHO you really should consider expanding your team.

1814 1898
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  • 20 Jul '19
 SWSeriousMike

Who says I'm pissed? It's not about what I can handle. I endure enough animosities on this forum. I entered these discussions because all the arguments against moderation are bullshit:

Freedom of speech doesn't apply here.
"It's also bad in other games" is just whataboutism and defeatism.
"You are thin skinned and I'm a badass" is probably wrong and also besides the point.
"Censorship leads to fascism" is also bullshit because every nation on earth censors shit one way or the other.
"Communists trying to fight our American values in Mordhau" is unhinged paranoia.
"It's not racist to write 'all niggers should burn'" is not even trying to make sense.

Your fake tolerance is hurting the game. The community failed the devs - that's why they consider adding filters now, which takes away from dev time. Grow a spine. Take responsibility.

Here is another high skill ceiling PvP game that doesn't have a toxic community: chess.

This shit with taking random games as examples is completely pointless. I can disprove climate change by comparing the temperatures of summer and winter. I can prove fire generates water by correlation.

Show me your R6 control group or please just stop your pseudo-scientific non-arguments.

1814 1898
  • 19 Jul '19
 SWSeriousMike

@KineticWolf said:

@Unlikely said:
Every racist pretends not to be a racist, but that's beside the point. If this were a poll about what your favorite color is, the result would still be meaningless, because the sample isn't random.

No, racists behave in racist ways. If they are pretending not to be, they aren't, because we're our actions, not our thoughts.

Maybe you are too young to remember Stephen Hawking. That guy was most certainly famous for his thoughts, not for his actions. And no, he isn't an exception in that regard but an example.

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  • 18 Jul '19
 CatR

@KineticWolf said:

@Unlikely said:
Every racist pretends not to be a racist, but that's beside the point. If this were a poll about what your favorite color is, the result would still be meaningless, because the sample isn't random.

No, racists behave in racist ways. If they are pretending not to be, they aren't, because we're our actions, not our thoughts.

Now that is just not true, if we were our actions we'd be creatures of pure stimuli. The cognitive aspect of a human is the single most important factor in deciding its personality, values, and preferences; which in turn informs which actions are reasonable to take. In fact one of the most unique features in humans is that we can hold several simultaneous goals in our heads at once and then independently decide which is worth pursuing and in which order. That humans can choose not to act, or more specifically, act selectively, is the cornerstone of our significant intellect. The cognitive function is the fundamental identity, the actions are merely expression of it.

You need to read up on your cognitive science and philosophy, young man.

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sjw is the new punk rock apparently since every socially isolated moron on the internet thinks they're The Brain Genius for learning to be ironically detached as a social crutch, and spout airhead sociopathic things like moralfag when someone with functioning empathy calls them a weirdo

its extremely cool to develop all the same sociopathic opinions that crackheads have. anti-social disorders are IN!

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  • 17 Jul '19
 Unlikely

When @JimboniusMaximus says

Back to statistics 101.

he's right. To expand on what he said, if one takes an elementary statistics course, one learns that any poll with self-selected respondents is bullshit. You can only learn something if you use a random sample.

This poll is worse than no poll at all, because it creates the illusion of knowing something when in fact we know nothing. And that's even if we grant, which I do not, that the question was fair and somehow measures what the pollster claims to measure.

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  • 17 Jul '19
 esturias

@MachinePlayer said:
Idk it's to the point. Ffs it's just a video game after all.

It's not to the point, it's a horribly dumb poll that won't yield anything. And the fact that this is "just a computergame" is entirely irrelevant.
Seriously... how old are you? Maybe ask a kid from elementary school for help when you are entirely overchallenged with this task...

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  • 15 Jul '19
 smug

@smokratez said:

@smug said:

@smokratez said:

@smug said:

@smokratez said:

@smug said:

@smokratez said:

@smug said:
Consequences for being retarded isn't censorship.

Censoring people for saying things you don't like isn't rightful or justified. It's an abuse of power because you are scared of what they say. You know your side is set of a throne of lies. You want to censor people because you fear the truth.

I dont want their posts deleted or ability to say anything taken away, what I want is temp bans or any sort of punishment.

You want to punish people for disagreeing with you. That's more than a bit silly.

Debate is different than calling people slurs, or other equally cringe actions.

Do you feel the same way about racism against white people?

Of course, its extremely cringe you’re trying to link me to a United Nations white genocide conspiracy when all I want is for people who break rules and act offensively be punished for their actions.

There are already punishments in place. White genocide is not a conspiracy. Forced immigration alone will result in the mixing of races and as a result the white race being fased out. Which is a definition of genocide.

"Dude white genocide duh."

"Wtf you want to punish people for certain kinds of speech? Wtf ur literally Marx"

"Dude chill out there are already punishments."

A bonus:

"Dude it's just words on a screen man, words don't mean anything. Why did Humans ever evolve the capacity for speech, or write great works of literature, or even bother writing things out with words amirite?"

Lenient moderation was a mistake.

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  • 15 Jul '19
 vanguard

@Alasdair said:

@ToLazy4Name said:

@Alasdair said:
They absolutely are capitulating to journalists whether or not its lip service is another question.

I don't fucking understand, they planned this shit for years and they're somehow capitulating to journalists? Are you insane or am I insane? what the fuck is going on

I don't think their plans are holy scripture which is why I've ignored it every time its not some great gotcha you think it is, adding women to a historical european middle age-fighting games is fucking stupid and would have said that when they made their video at the time and did so like I'm doing now. appeal to authority isn't an argument what you are doing is trying to make me look hysterical and delusional with facts and reasoning which isn't an argument. They are capitulating to journalists by removing the toggle, and saying they would censor if they had the manpower to do so. they are either giving lip service to get them to fuck off or capitulating to threats made by internet activists with no power.

They were capitulating to manchild like yourself when they said they would add the toggle tbh. The idea was to have women as a choice for customization since fucking forever, but some time ago people like you flooded this place with manchild tears because having women in the game would hurt their feelings, so they said this toggle thing to try and please guys like you, which looking back now, it probably was a mistake.

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  • 14 Jul '19
 vanguard

@LuxCandidus said:
@vanguard
You are making the same mistake as everyone else dignifying the tripe in that article. Because you are displeased with the state of the community, you are letting it slide that the article is dripping with misinformation, dishonesty, political agenda that goes beyond simply decrying racists, and a complete lack of compassion for a tiny team of first-time developers who are overworked and underprepared for the booming success of their game. If all the article was saying is that the community is toxic, and that it needs to be improved, I would be on board.

Look at the claim it is actually making. It is saying the community got this bad not because moderation was not strict enough, not because there were no official measures against it such as a chat filter, but because the developers picked Medieval Europe as the (very loose) setting for the game, and apparently such a setting is evil and a breeding ground for supremacists, because it is often 'falsely' depicted as being predominantly white and male... even though the developers personally want to include females and darker skin tones, and are still standing by it despite the enormous backlash they have gotten. But let's suppose they didn't include those things, would that make it racist? If so, then I guess Chivalry is a vile, racist game too. I know your views Vanguard, but even you must see how preposterous that statement is.

I really don't see the problem claiming that medieval games are a breeding ground for white supremacists. It in fact is. Same as WW2 games Lux, these are also usually a highly disputed place between white supremacists and commies. See Red Orchestra 2 community for reference. Wehraboos and Tankies everywhere. WIth medieval europe you will have all these white supremacist incels trying to make the game their safe space.

Chiv was also filled with white supremacists, Der Furst came from Chiv's forums. Most of the "famous" right wingers from this forum also did. During early days, this place was literally a extention of Torn Banner's community but without moderation and it was pretty common to see conversations about why whites are biologically superior to everyone else. This shows that Chiv's community was also plaged by this, but moderation didn't allowed it to grow up.

The game not including females or or other skin tones other than whites is really not the problem, indeed, but don't you recognize that there is a group of people who activelly push towards these games to be kept like this and against any sort of diverity, and that these people are in fact 90% of the time fucking nazis or right wing edgelords? Just look at the arguments against women or other skin tones in this game, its glaring. Imagine if Torn Banner announces tomorrow that Chiv 2 will have black people and women, the natural response of a big part of this community will be "hue le SJW devs where muh realism tbh dis jew conspiracy against white man XD muh reparations".

So idk Lux, its not the fact that the game includes or not women and other skin tones other than white, is the fact that part of the community is militant about NOT including these people, and this part of the community are mostly the goddamn nazis and radical right wingers.

I would ignore the historical revisionism they are pushing by claiming Medieval battlefields were teeming with women and black people, because it is a separate discussion entirely, but I would be remiss not to point out journalism is supposed to be unbiased, while clearly the entire article is using Mordhau as an excuse for the writer to push their revisionist political agenda when they are paid to write about video games. In fact, he went out of his way to lie about Mordhau being advertised as historically accurate despite the developers never missing an opportunity to correct that misconception by saying the game is not meant to be a historical simulator at all. He did this so he can compare it to Kingdom Come: Deliverance, and treat them as the same thing, because the developers of that game have already garnered some notoriety by making statements people considered racist or bigoted. Everyone should condemn such cheap dishonesty, regardless of what their views are.

The article claims that this game falls under "low fantasy", which is true. The part where the article says mad shit is here imho, when saying why mordhau has only white males:

"If this was not an intentional design (and I’d like to hope it was not), and the developers were simply working under assumptions they believed were true, it’s hard to fault them--after all, they were working from the same popular culture depictions of medieval race that thousands of creators had before, each built on the same feedback loops of “authenticity” dating back to the Romantics and the Enlightenment scholars that constructed the fantasy in the first place. It is a legacy of obfuscation, designed specifically to play into the biases of early ethnonationalist scholars, artists, and politics. It is a legacy that lives on through not only unintentional depictions of a homogenous white medieval Europe, but through the adherents of modern white supremacy and white nationalism."

It doesn't consider the fact that the devs planed to have other skin tones and women since basically forever. Tbh though, the article is talking about what the game is, its coming from the same point of view of buyers of the released product imho. Its kind of a fair point when you consider that there isn't a roadmap or anything like this stating the plans for the game. It's what probably helps breeding right wing radicals too, since they get into the game and its the fucking white male orgy they always dreamt being part of too tbh, whithout any clear sign that the devs are still working on the customization options for the game.

In the end, this is also related to the fact that Mordhau was released as a finished product instead of a early access game, when in fact it is effectively NOT a finished product. It's clear the devs vision of this game is yet to be turned into reality, it lacks maps and customizations, maybe game modes they want to add etc. I don't blame them for this, money and Steam policies must play a fucking huge role here and it is lack of consideration on the article part to not consider this fact, that money and steam policies forces devs to release games in a state they didn't wanted to, which can cause... unforeseen consequences. But again, we don't have a book of mordhau development history, neither we can read the dev's minds so they must communicate and talk to people about these issues. We know these things because we follow this project and nerd about it since forever, but it's unreasonable to expect that people from the outside will have the same insights we do. Devs must speak up tbh.

And since people are so quick to point the finger at the developers and accuse them of being complicit with the racism, let me point the finger at that journalist and ask where all his outrage at Mordhau's setting was when he was writing his previous article on the game, in which he said he was having a lot of fun. Was he having so much fun he did not notice the characters are male? Or could it be that he liked the game, but as soon as he saw the bandwagon of people writing accusatory articles about the game, he hopped right on to get those clicks?

Sure, journalists do tends to bandwagon on what gives clicks. Really doesn't change the fact that medieval setting in games is a breeding ground for right wing radicals, same as WW2 games. And, although none of us could have predicted this would be such a big thing, I think its time to adress this officialy tbh. Mordhau is at the frontline of this political discussion in gaming communities now, it's not something the devs chose but such is life imho, they got sucked into the whirlwind of politics and now must deal with it.

I mean, this situation can be turned around in favor of the devs, but they must position themselves and say their political stance on all of this, how they view it, how has their experience been with all of this since the begining and all that. Silence and "centrism" will only lead to more shitstorm and people will keep trying to guess what the fuck is actually happening from a dev point of view. Some will say that yes, they are right wing radicals and have always wanted and allowed this to happen; some will say that no, they just could not have imagined this would happen and don't know how to deal with it, and so on. Better is to just say what the fuck is actually going on than to let this fuckery keep building up imho.

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  • 14 Jul '19
 Alphonse

@LuxCandidus said:
I would be remiss not to point out journalism is supposed to be unbiased, while clearly the entire article is using Mordhau as an excuse for the writer to push their revisionist political agenda when they are paid to write about video games.

Articles with the tone of the OP (i.e., editorials and opinion pieces) can't be truly unbiased. They are what they are.

I don't want to get into too deep epistemological shit but the gist of it is that journalism --in general-- can't be 100% unbiased because truth and facts in the modern world are non reducible to very fundamental basic principles, i.e., they are not "absolutes". Reporters don't just write "Milk costs $4. An increase of 10% since January", because that would be boring and people don't exactly read newspapers or journals for that reason.

I'd also like to point out the last part of your argument is called a tu quoque fallacy.

I agree with whoever wrote before that the article DOES gives Triternion the benefit of the doubt. The "revisionistic agenda" is the whole point of the article, and it's argued with different cited sources, so I won't go into that either. Where you said he goes out of his way to lie, I'd say the whole paragraph of “historical authenticity” in its "fictional, but realistic world" is open to interpretation. It's reinforced by an earlier paragraph about sympathies and questions just how specific Triternion is in terms of realism, how specific or realistic they should be, and player's own interpretation of the setting.

I also agree with Vanguard that this board is kind of poorly moderated and has always been from both a content and a PoC viewpoint(s). This is pretty obvious. The reason being lack of staff or not wanting to confront with long time supporters. I mean, people call others retards, slurs are used "ironically" (like here) or whatever. It's not like they break rules in too obvious ways, but I'd be suspicious of the "banter". I don't recall ever reading any warning or announcement of the sort "please behave".

I'm inclined to believe those backers are just dumb, or edgy, instead of mean assholes, because I've been reading some of them since the early days of this forum and the Chivalry/Slasher subreddits and I'm not so sure. But with the influx of hundreds of thousands of new players, and a general in a cesspool like 4chan since release, I'm not so sure if a laissez faire approach is the best way to deal with this anyway.

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  • 14 Jul '19
 vanguard

@LuxCandidus said:
The biggest slap in the face regarding this sensationalised slander is that the writer got paid to write it. They are not only sabotaging the success of a young and ambitious indie company, but they also make a living out of it. And surprising to no one - they have no idea what they are talking about, else they would know females and darker skin tones are already planned, and were only absent from launch because the developers had to rush the game to a release-worthy state.

Lux, you are old enough on this community to know that this place fucking breeds nazis and fascists of all kinds. The article is not slandering the devs in any way tbh, its just stating this fact. You were here already back in the political thread days, weren't you?

Since fucking forever right wing radicals have tryied to make this community theirs, this is what the article is about and tbh it's very precise, these people are in fact since forever trying to make this community a safe space for right wing radicals, its a disputed territory. And the question that it brings is also expected, are the devs aware of this? How do they position themselves knowing this fact? Are they right wing radicals too or they simply don't know how to handle the situation?

I'm here since fucking forever and I don't know the devs political stance, liking it or not, this is what is at play here, their political stance. I believe they are not right wing radicals because they said they will be adding women and other races to the game, or if they are, they are not allowing their political beliefs mix with their work. Just answer it, its really that simple tbh. Are you guys right wing radicals? How do you feel about the FACT that this community breeds fucking right wing radicals?

If you devs think that taking a stance on this will have a severe impact on the sales numbers or some shit, I have to disagree. If the game is good, no one will give a flying fuck if you guys say all this right wing bullshit in your community is, well, bullshit.

I think honesty is the best way foward tbh, just fucking say it, take a stance on the subject. How do you feel about the politics of your community? Which side are you on?

This right wing problem is present in tons of gaming communities, even here in fucking Brazil tbh. What I think its happening now is that political parties realized gamers are a fucking huge part of their actual and future political cattle, so we have "agents" stirring shit up. Its starting to have a economic effect towards the devs side, and no dev has yet spoken about this fuckery. Maybe its time you know, to adress this fucking elephant in the room, all this obnoxious right wing fuckery in gaming communities.

TLDR: This place effectively has been disputed by right wingers through its history, and I think the devs should make a public post about their views on this subject.

PS: I know the "agents stirring shit up" part sounds kinda conspiracionist, but I have some real fucking good reasons to believe that this shit is actually goddamn real, at least in a few big brazillian gaming communities. I feel like in one of them I poked a wasp's nest, but this is something for another time. Its fucking creepy I shit you not.

1814 1898
  • 13 Jul '19
 SWSeriousMike

@LuxCandidus said:
The biggest slap in the face regarding this sensationalised slander is that the writer got paid to write it. They are not only sabotaging the success of a young and ambitious indie company, but they also make a living out of it. And surprising to no one - they have no idea what they are talking about, else they would know females and darker skin tones are already planned, and were only absent from launch because the developers had to rush the game to a release-worthy state.

Mad at words.


Here is a guide how to deal with unwanted articles:
1) Go to the browser tab showing the article
2) Press CTRL + F4

You're welcome!

As CatR already pointed out: You brought this on the game. The community never stops giving and I'm sure the devs are really grateful to all the contributors from this forum, who helped making that article by proving it right time and time again. I'm sure you will add fuel for the next article now with your alt right conspiracy bullshit.

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  • 13 Jul '19
 CatR

Gonna be honest here. You can bang the drum of 'But we are adding muffins to this game populated entirely by cupcakes ANY SECOND NOW!' all you want but you can't get credit for it. You don't get grades based on what you were going to add into your paper if you had 2 more weeks, you get graded by the paper you hand in. Your movie doesn't get reviewed based on what the sequel looks like. Mordhau is a product that is sold for full price as a finished product and is treated as such.

Also, getting offended that journalists write news about the contents of the game and calling for their heads most of the time by discrediting their work and sometimes quite literally calling for their execution, as you'll see more frequently on the Steam forums; it doesn't exactly scream 'calm rational people that are really just doing their best'. Meaning no offence, but having a mod call the piece 'slander' is not really helping the image, because I actually took the time to read the thing everyone was outraged about and here is what I found:

The research is cited and uses a credible source. It postulates a correct phenomenon that entertainment about medieval times or European martial arts attracts white-supremacists. Mordhau as an example quite literally had people talking about the 'white ethno-state' and 'cultural marxism' until very recently. And in the end the article does not say anything about Trinternion that is not true. Let us get some quotes!

The developers of Mordhau, whether they planned to or not, have created an environment that is amenable to the
viewpoints of white supremacist appropriators of medieval culture.

Yeah, pretty much. Until very recently the entirety of the front page was "Don't add black knight!!" which incidentally is still what the Steam forums look like every other day. Sorry, Void, but you can't stem the tide on your own. You don't have to agree with the sentiment to see that it is still a very present factor in the community.

Mordhau’s forums, officially moderated by Triternion, are currently home to a number of threads and communities that
have a relatively lax approach to offensive slang.

Yes, pretty much. I don't find "Kniggas" offensive but I'd call it 'lax' indeed. Of course even people who argue for stricter moderation often use the N-word or the F-word or the R-word in descriptive or mocking ways. I don't refer to them as such in private but this is not private, is it?

Not only is this a gross misrepresentation of historical concepts of medieval societies, but it offers a dangerous space
for white supremacist movements to take hold, claiming that “authentic” portrayals of medieval Europe look a lot like
Mordhau: white, male, bloody.

Same as the first statement, Mordhau certainly contains only white people, only men, and a lot of blood. It certainly did not ever enforce the 'no racism' rule. Seems fair to me; we'll get to the historical argument in a second.

The fact that Mordhau, a game that draws heavily from the same aesthetics as neofascist white supremacist movements draw inspiration from, is grappling with bigotry and hate movements within their
gaming community, comes across as disappointing, but unfortunately not surprising.

Nothing controversial there, it is struggling, and neofascists do love knights. In fact I challenge you to find any part of this article that is in fact slanderous, inaccurate, or attacking Mordhau. I challenge you because these quotes I put forth are in reverse order and they still are isolated descriptive statements that in no way, shape, or form lie or mislead about what the Mordhau community contains. It in no way claims Triternion are racists, nor does it claim that this is an intentional development, nor does it claim that Triterion actively endorses any of its community bad behaviour. Now if you want to argue with their cited expert then go ahead, I won't join that discussion because I have better things to do than arguing with 10 people none of which has read a primary or even secondary source; but you enjoy that.

So let's all smash our pots and pans and yell loudly about how Trinternion is being targeted by the SJW press, that they are a victim of a conspiracy by Epic Games to make their work look bad. Let's weep sad little tears about how the average outside observer sees the Mordhau community as a place where people gladly engage in rubbing one out to romanticised medieval fantasies about murdering each other. Let us claim that everyone who criticises Mordhau is either out to get us, or over-sensitive political activists, or just don't see the bigger picture, man!

Because sure Mordhau is a game released where the only customisation options you have are being a white man, but you can be female soon! Very soon! And black! Or Asian! You can be all these things in the future just trust us NOW that all of this is coming in the future. The only reason it is delayed is because we have such a HIGH STANDARD that we wouldn't want to release LOW QUALITY CONTENT. That's literally the only reason. Just trust us, despite being given no reason to do so, despite the community showing that you really shouldn't; please trust us. The word filter? We'll release it when it's perfect, we'll release all the moderation features when they satisfy our personal standards. Don't worry, once they're all released you'll think yourself a fool for doubting us!

Or, perhaps, just maybe.

Now this is just, you know, a suggestion.

You know me, my silly suggestions.

How about taking responsibility for your actions?

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do ppl realize what i mean yet when i say that the words aren't offensive but it invites a certain mentality

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  • 5 Jul '19
 Fattigkussen

@ToLazy4Name said:
holy shit they're WORDS

W O R D S

Well put, I wish more people would just realise that words have no impact on anything, they're just letters lol

Like how could anyone be dissatisfied with racial slurs clogging up every chat, this literally cannot have an impact on anyones enjoyment of the end product, they're just W O R D S

This thankfully also means I can be an insufferable asshole to anyone I like, because if they get offended it's their fault for being triggered by words, not mine for typing the trash out xDDD

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@ToLazy4Name said:

@CocyxTheGaySkeleton said:

@ToLazy4Name said:
holy shit they're WORDS

W O R D S

not everyone struggles with empathizing with other people, but i guess you need empathy to understand that lol

ppl aren't offended by the words, they're annoyed by dumb antisocial people clogging up chat

then fucking mute them lmao

this argument has looped back to this about eight thousand times now and i barely need empathy to understand that you have literally two argument points

  • mute them

  • they're words

and every time someone points out ones dumb you just flip to the other lol

you're not even arguing, you're TOGGLING.

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@ToLazy4Name said:
imagine being this concerned about words

imagine it, punzy

how come u keep disassociating words with the mentality behind them. is it cause u disassociate urself from your online posts as an avenue to pretend to be an interesting person