Mordhau
 Oddball
  • Likes received 14
  • Date joined 29 Jan '18
  • Last seen 20 Sep '19

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Knight 627 2068
  • 3 Apr '18
 LuxCandidus

@Huggles said:

...So weapon balance and "instant" attacks will be resolved by basic knowledge of footwork, positioning, and attack angling.

Come on, Huggles. Look at battleaxe stabs being absurdly quick for no reason. Look at how weapons that are supposed to be slow such as the bardiche can be accelerated to where they swing faster than an arming sword (not an accelerated one). I cannot find that video showcasing ripostes which last like three frames, but I have encountered quite a lot of those in this patch.

People think it raises the skill ceiling but it does the complete opposite. It feels like someone is pressing the fast forward button at random intervals whenever you are up against a weapon that is expected to be slow. This one issue with the game bleeds into everything else: you cannot wait until the last moment to parry an attack because attacks can suddenly go faster than you can react to, so you have to panic parry a lot of the time. This also makes dealing with feints tremendously worse, and so on. Current attack speeds are also something new players could not even comprehend. Learning the game while up against someone who knows how to swing three times faster than you does not make for a fun experience.

I think the single best thing the developers can do for the game is limit attack acceleration. A close second is making the release phase last much longer.

@Huggles said:
Also, you say that you shoudln't have to have 100+ hours to git gud but really the game has no depth if this isn't the case. Of course, you can't pin all the problems on "git gud" and here is what I agree with.

No no, it should definitely take hundreds of hours to get anywhere close to the top, but people either take this too far and think basic concepts like parrying should also take hundreds of hours to learn, or they use it to excuse broken mechanics, such as when people defended bad animations because it takes more skill to read them.

Knight 941 2568
  • 8 Feb '18
 Pred

@LuxCandidus said:
People who are against readable animations are only taking that position because they do not properly understand what others are suggesting, and instead think everyone is in favour of making attacks so slow and telegraphed that even players with two hours of playtime can react to them consistently. This is not what is being proposed.

CvZahgv.png

Knight 627 2068
  • 8 Feb '18
 LuxCandidus

Not so. Clear, consistent animations means you can adjust their difficulty through gameplay changes such as raising the strictness of the chamber window, lowering the time a parry lasts or making it require more precision, making attacks faster in general, and so on.

Having clunky unreadable animations means combat is completely arbitrary until you have put in several hundred hours, at which point you would have gotten used to the broken animations and learned to exploit them, also known as the Torn Banner design philosophy. Such an approach results in neither an enjoyable game nor a reasonable skill progression.

People who are against readable animations are only taking that position because they do not properly understand what others are suggesting, and instead think everyone is in favour of making attacks so slow and telegraphed that even players with two hours of playtime can react to them consistently. This is not what is being proposed.

When you step back from the conversation and see that one group is suggesting non-broken animations while the other is vehemently advocating the opposite, it should become clear there is a communication error, a misunderstanding, not a genuine difference in opinion.

Count 4205 9821
  • 6 Feb '18
 DerFurst

Here is the cycle:

1: someone discusses problems or has an idea with massive potential to impact the game
2: everything is initially fine and people give their feedback
3: Giru notices that important stuff is being talked about that could change the game, so he hops in the thread to give his own opinion, usually civil at first
4: people disagree with Giru and try to explain themselves
5: Giru calls people who disagrees with him bad players and bad people, then shifts the topic away from the original purpose and makes it a personal fight between egos
6: New forum accounts either pop up out of nowhere or hardly used accounts become activated to shit on the people who are arguing against Giru and to like all of Giru's posts
7: the entire thread completely fucks up and nobody is focused on the original point anymore; it's devolved into pure stupidity
8: the thread ends itself or is closed
0: wait a few more weeks and it happens again somewhere else

Please stop doing this. Forget your egos at the door and just discuss things like humans and not apes.

Duchess 806 3550
  • 1
  • 5 Feb '18
 Stouty

@GIRUGIRU said:
Boner plays on high ping, wizardish admits that he tries to chamber too much, stouty is one of the worst people to talk about balance with coz he has no idea, gauntlet idk don't really see him play

On the contrary Giru, you are absolutely GARBAGE at discussing balance. Your arguments frequently boil down to "X player beat me, this shouldn't happen due to my unsubstantiated belief that I'm the best player in the game thus Y needs nerfing". Often grandiose trumpesque stories are peddled of your discussions with high regarded players that haven't called you out on your ego "Believe me I've spent hours in discord with wizardish and boner purely regarding balance and brought some of the devs in for discussions" - lmao it's like you pulled it off his twitter. Then you'll try and move the debate into discord where it's you and ten yesmen agreeing over how hard balancing is, sprinkled with a healthy amount of trashtalk whilst also getting sidetracked with some pointless feature creeps e.g. add in a dubaxe that has longsword animations (still scratching my head over that one, what about fixing the core game?)

I haven't really put much effort into this current discussion but as a standard I believe chambers should be consistent even at close range otherwise it will be a 50/50 which I know you hate. The whole thing is reminiscent of people testing whether SOW's were readable at facehug and obviously that was a problem in chiv so likewise the chamber consistency is an issue here

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 1
  • 5 Feb '18
 vanguard

Not the point. I know you are not supposed to chamber 100% of the time, and I didn't said you should nor I want that to be the case.

I'm saying that, when you are supposed to chamber, if you try to read it, you won't be able to because the animations doesn't convey what is going on properly, thus making it a gamble or a prediction, which, imho, lowers the skill ceiling of the game and brings absolutely nothing good to the table.

The video only demonstrates how bad it can get, and you can be victim of a drag like that while footworking without any problem. As I said, these drags are easy to perform. Try it yourself, only do really subtle drags, you won't bypass parries, but you will fuck any chamber atempt your opponent tries to do, which will force him to parry or gamble to chamber, and that will make him vulnerable to your feints or eat a hit every time his gamble fails. These subtle drags are OP, and once people start doing it more, high level fights will boil down to stamina and hard-reading feints because chambering is a unecessary risk.

And this on duels, where you can actually pay attention to your opponent's animation. Teamplay should only make this question worse and even more of a unecessary risk to chamber.

I really don't get why is it better to have unreadable animations instead of readable animations but with a more restrict timing to chamber.

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 2
  • 4 Feb '18
 vanguard

@GIRUGIRU said:
readings drags + accels is a joke compared to how it was in difficult it was Chiv.

You must be playing with players that drag and telegraph like they are playing chiv then tbh.

Shit was hard to read in chiv, but here it isn't all that better. You can Parry them easily because the parrying time is much more forgiving, so unless you Parry ridiculously early, you are safe against both accels and delays against most weapons.

With chambers, you gotta either hard read it, predict your opponent attack or gamble as the timing is much less forgiving. The only skill based option here is not viable, that would be hard reading it.

i think you need to be devoting more time to the game before you can make statements like "i can't distinguish drag+accel".

Check out the other thread about this same subject, look at the people who liked my original post, or posted themselves there, or liked some other post that agreed with this claim that they are unreadable. There are some pretty good dudes there if that is the problem.

Trying to chamber like the way you are doing in those clips - you're trying to run before u can stand up. Pointless trying to chamber if you cant maintain a consistent defence with parries. It's like going for 1 taps in CSGO and nothing else

The point is that you can't read them when you want to chamber. Can you read them? Seriously?

How the hell is this readable man.

This sort of thing happens in fights all the time, it isn't even hard to do these drags. In fact, it is really easy to perform it.

Knight 26 83
  • 2
  • 2 Feb '18
 GucciLoafers

Distinguishing a drag from an acceleration is not actually possible due to the timing overlap in which you can be hit from an accel and a drag respectively.

E.G. if you attempt a read for a drag, the point at which you have to wait to effectively read the drag is overlapped by the timing in which you can be hit from an accel, meaning that you have to wait past the point of being able to be hit before you can actually parry and chamber consistently for the longer kinds of drags.

You may be able to guesswork your way into reading a drag from an accel by the position of their torso but the turn cap on all weapons makes turning from an accel to a drag and vice versa too easy to do, resulting in an inconsistent form of reading. This concept is most noticeable by mixing between looking into accels in windup and doing the same but dragging after you have done the accel movement.

Wait until you can parry a chamber or drag, be hit by an accel, parry early for the accel and you get hit by a drag because they can interchange them after you have accommodated for the timing of the weapon.

I presume that with the animation update, it wouldn't fix this issue but would rather mask it with more noticeable and snappier movements, but the timing goes untouched meaning that the issue will still be present.

The issue could be solved with more turn cap (Not ideal, but may be a necessary evil) in the release state of attacks or making release state of an attack slower so it doesn't come down as fast which will make up for the overlap in which a drag can be distinguished from an accel.

This is my take on the turn cap and timings of weapons in Mordhau, I am open to anyone who would be willing to present arguments against mine but I haven't come to see any as of yet.

GIFS
Defense - https://gfycat.com/SafeScholarlyBorzoi
Attack - https://gfycat.com/UnfitWeepyBoutu
Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjwTVqK04zA
Instant attack - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8r5lcFFUP0&feature=youtu.be
Instant attack #2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFbowbEfjEY&feature=youtu.be

Duchess 806 3550
  • 1
  • 7 Feb '18
 Stouty

@GIRUGIRU said:
stouty tried to kickup some more drama after the discussion aswell coz he'd never try to do it in voice but i'm not really interested in petty squabbles, i'm just here to discuss balance and educate

You had the opportunity to say it in voice but stayed quiet and posted it in discord instead, guess you were shook lol

Jax don't forget to include the clip where giru admits to brigading the forums

3234 4264
  • 6 Feb '18
 Havoc

@Stouty said:
A low iq response proving my point to the letter, thank you and goodnight everybody

GIRUGIRU is the cancer rotting mordhau from the inside out. His ego is blinding him from accepting any issues other have, unless he personally has an issue, it's a L2P issue obviously.

Duchess 806 3550
  • 5 Feb '18
 Stouty

A low iq response proving my point to the letter, thank you and goodnight everybody

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 1
  • 5 Feb '18
 vanguard

What the fuck, have you even read the thread or are you just here brigading for giru? Good one Burrito lmao. Here:

https://mordhau.com/forum/topic/12596/the-readability-of-drags/?page=1

Read the thread, why dont you try to understand what we are talking about ye?

But if its anims you're on about, they could do with some tweaking.

Yeah, that is exactly what we are all about. What have you even thought we were talking about? Asking to remove drags?