Mordhau
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  • Likes received 70
  • Date joined 1 May '19
  • Last seen 19 Jan

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  • 14 May '19
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I felt like a more organized analysis of current map design was missing from the forums, so here it is. If you are not particularly interested in the topic, it is probably too long for your liking. Please, feel free to discuss in the comments, I would love to see a more detailed discussion of Mordhau gamemodes.

The main issue is that the Frontline gamemode is symmetric, while the maps aren't. It is inherently difficult, even impossible, to balance asymmetric maps for all skill levels and team sizes.
That is already understood by the competitive community, as they play scrims alternating the sides.
However it is an issue on public servers, where people expect to have equal chance of victory on both sides, which leads to frustration. Differentiating teams further, making matches consist of two rounds, with a team swap in between them, and having a victory condition based on both rounds is necessary. This will become mandatory for gameplay purposes if there will be an official frontline competitive/ranked mode anyway.

Such a gamemode change would also incentivize pushing the objectives more aggressively, as that usually renders larger score/token differences, while currently the most reliable way to win (especially so for Red team) is to capture the middle point and hold it, using defender advantage to have better k/d and gain score difference this way.

Another major issue is that the objectives are simply too small for the current player numbers (48/64 servers). There is rarely a reason to contest anything that's not the main point. On many maps the only threat outside of it are archers and mounted crossbows, which are not nearly strong enough to make tactics such as wide flanking mandatory. All this leads to a huge deathbowl on the point, or people giving up on playing the objective and tdming at random parts of the map.

One of the possible solutions to this problem is changing the gamemode to have multiple objectives active more of the time, such as with the current rescue/destruction objectives.
Otherwise we already have mechanics that could help with control points being an issue: horses, siege weapons and ranged weapons (bows, crossbow and mounted crossbow).

Horses allow to cut off enemy reinforcements, and make archers/mounted crossbows/siege more important by being vulnerable to them. However I feel like the current amount of horses (2-3 per team depending on map at most) doesn't make them a consistent enough factor. Especially with the respawn timer, a low skill player taking a horse leaves your horse with no access to it, meaning you can't rely on them as a necessary tool for one of the teams. I would suggest adding more stables-like locations on the map, factual control over which will allow a team to have more horses, thus adding a reason to fight over a part of the map that isn't the currently contested control point.

Catapult is overall good design, as it makes it less effective to just stack on the point, and is the most efficient tool to destroy fortifications, making other ranged options and horses more relevant. It can often become an objective on its own, making the enemy team flank to capture or destroy it. However currently if it is present on the map, it is only available for one of the teams, giving them a huge edge, furthering the asymmetric map design issue.

Ballista is very different. I would argue, the way it is currently placed on maps makes the gameplay strictly worse. It is usually too close to its team spawn, making it borderline impossible to flank and destroy, thus just adding a non-interactible advantage to that team, and nothing else. However some Blue ballistas, especially so on Camp and Grad, have firing angles that barely benefit its owners, if at all. At the same time, it is possible for the other team to sneak to the ballista and use it against their spawn. While this creates reasonably interesting gameplay for Red Camp Ballista, because it is actually useful for Red othrewise, it is simply an annoyance in case of Blue Camp and Blue Grad ballistas.
At the same time, even if the firing angles would be better, the only thing it would accomplish is making it harder to push certain objectives, which is already hard or impossible to do on larger servers, unless the match is extremely one-sided.
A better solution, if not a realistic one in terms of historical map design, would be to place Ballistas in a somewhat neutral part of the map, watching over one of the control points, making it a relevant flanking objective.

Archery promotes flanking somewhat, but at its current power level it can't solve the gamemode issues on its own, neither it should be buffed to such a degree for gameplay reasons. I think mounted crossbow is a better candidate for a buff, as currently it is not really threatening enough to be a mini-objective for the enemy team to counter. And I think there is a lot of room for it to be buffed, as it has extremely effective counters such as fire bombs, the catapult and crossbow archers, which are currently not even used against it most of the time, as it is simply overkill. It being stronger would also somewhat help with the shield spam in frontline, until it is (or if is not) going to be solved in some other way.
Edit: Mounted crossbow has been buffed since then, and I think all its capacity of being a secondary objective is being used atm. However it is probably not the way to solve things for competitive play, as current community bans its usage due to projectiles being unparriable.

Currently, the most balanced frontline map is Moutain Peak, simply because it is the least asymmetric. At the same time, it is a bit too simplistic, and I don't feel like it works that great for 64 or even 48 people Frontline. Making it somewhat wider and adding secondary objectives is just as necessary, if it is going to stay a frontline map. Otherwise I can see a smaller scale control point oriented competitive gamemode similar to TF2's 5CP being interesting, and Mountain Peak could be a good start for that.

Edit: I forgot to write about spawns. There are two problems with them. First is that forwards spawns are not forward enough to make winning by pushing the objective possible in all but the most unbalanced matches. The other is that most of them are completely open for the enemy team to walk into and spawncamp. The latter is especially problematic on separated spawns, such Blue second point on Mountain Peak, where you are spawned randomly one one of the two sides of the map, which can lead to one of them being overwhelmed and camped for quite a long amount of time. I think it is important to have only one spawn per team per point, both to avoid camping and to make it easier for the other team to avoid running into it. Especially so with current open spawns, where you can find yourself with players literally spawning behind you, which forces you to remember every single spawn spot in the game if you wish to avoid that.

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  • 19 May '19
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Have you never played any large scale team games at all? :D

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  • 9 May '19
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I sincerely hope this is a shitpost and not serious

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  • 15 May '19
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@muNt said:
Snitching is pretty gay

If you are in 3rd grade, maybe it is

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  • 1 May '19
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You have a significant range advantage, use it. Feint to get through their parries.
If they are using a shield, your best bet is slowly draining them of all stamina while trying to stay safe.
Carrying a quick sidearm to be able to rush shield users (to be able to kick them) is also an option.

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  • 8 May '19
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The hilarious part is that even shroud wasn't actually complaining about balancing, he was praising the skill cap (you can hear him say an unfinished "... that's the skill[difference]"

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  • 1 May '19
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@Gravvy said:
I agree with everything you said except for the fact that the ballista you build is not "yours". You are a builder meant to support your team. Which means your ballista is for the rest of your team, not you. You are a builder. You build.

The reason I think the builder should be using it is because his loadout is suboptimal, with 8 points taken by the toolbox. It doesn't make sense for someone with 15 points worth of combat tools to use it, when I can do it just as efficiently with 7. And I should probably stick around anyway, as I might have to repair it, or might want to reinforce the area with spikes/barriers.

The ballista isn't really worth using full time anyway due to its atrocious reload time. A builder can spend that time repairing/grabbing ammo/placing other things, what is a fighter going to do?

And for an archer to use it is the least efficient, as they might as well shoot their ranged weapon instead, which is about as good

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  • 30 May '19
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Turn off the chat or grow up, the choice is yours.

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  • 16 May '19
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@smellycathawk said:
ya but you can constantly shoot with a longbow at anyone from anywhere... you can constantly do damage, regardless of whether or not you are "getting kills" you are helping your team by suppressing the enemy, when half of them are at half health at the end of their charge cause you shot everyone, half will die and the other half will retreat, giving you 1 or 2 assists.

Going 15 kills and like 4 deaths and like 30 assists is a good score for an archer, what's wrong with that?

You do realize that this is an extremely different statement from your last one?
I personally never argued for an archery buff, and I play archer quite a bit. I think all of the ranged weapons are in a pretty good spot balance-wise.

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  • 16 May '19
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@smellycathawk said:

@Saoirse said:
Prove me wrong.

If you hit all your shots you have higher damage output/second than any other weapon in the game.

Get better at aiming.

There is just no way. Even if you get exclusively headshots, I'm sure most melee weapon have higher dps.
As an obvious example, Maul can one hit anything, and it has speed comparable to longbow.
Even if you go with Maul bodyshots vs Longbow headshots, it comes out about even.

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  • 2 May '19
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The download speed has literally nothing to do with the devs.

Also I'm pretty sure what you get through SteamCMD is exactly the same as through Steam UI, so you must be doing something wrong

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  • 1 May '19
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So I've been playing a lot with the toolbox for the last two days, and I like it a lot in general, but there are a few issues with it.

  1. Building placement is very unreliable. Sometimes you can put your ballista down at an angle on a steep slope, and sometimes you can't do it even on flat ground. It is somewhat less of an issue with spikes and barriers, but still present. As a result, many positions which you would think were intended to be used by builders are unavailable or force you into suboptimal firing angles.
    Placing barriers next to the ballista can sometimes make it move to the side in an unpredictable manner.

  2. There is no tutorial for building. This is a pretty significant issue, as many teammates don't realize what you are doing as a builder. I regularly have to protect my buildings from my own team. People also tend to get pissed when I don't let them use my ballista, I assume because they think it's a pre-existing one and are not aware I've built it.
    Finally I found out you can build the ballista completely by accident, as you start with 3/6 ammo and it requires 6, with no part of the interface indicating you can construct it. Having it in the tutorial would help.

  3. I'm not sure why the toolbox starts with 3/6 ammo, the only thing it does is force you to go grab ammo immediately, which on most maps is available right at spawn. More tedium for no gameplay gain

  4. Similarly, ammo boxes refilling just 3 ammo is more on the tedious side, quite often I'm forced to simply sit there at the box for 5-10s to grab ammo, but I can see this being an attempt at limiting how often you can rebuild things.

  5. Ballista costing 6 ammo makes it hard to set up in any spot that's not immediately next to an ammo box, and there aren't many of those on some maps, such as Taiga. On some points you have to run more or less to your spawn to grab ammo after placing a ballista to place some defenses around it

  6. Ballista (or mounted crossbow? the game refers to it in both ways) takes quite a while to reload a single shot. I'm not sure if it would be balanced for it to reload faster, but it is rather boring to just sit there waiting for it to refill. Maybe make it reload faster when "repaired" with a hammer? Could also tie it to repair rate, so more uses for the Smith perk and blacksmith hammer (currently I feel they aren't really worth the points)

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  • 23 Jun '19
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Ranger and Huntsman are both quite nice, since they were made cost 1.
Otherwise most of them are not worth their cost though, that's for sure.

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  • 9 Jun '19
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@PinkerStinklage said:
secondary objectives/capture points is a must. like you mentioned, people hardly go to the point anyway due to it being so cramped, and end up just fighting at random chokes. give them something to do out there that actually helps.

yeah, the new map actually has a lot of horses, two ballistae and a mortar, but they are located in such away they can't be contested by one the other team. so they are just a source of random deaths instead of providing secondary objectives.

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  • 9 Jun '19
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With the last patch notes devs said thanks for 1 million sales.

The numbers you are quoting are projections and a very high estimate based on publicly available data, which we don't really need, because devs announce the numbers anyway.

Average Pakistani IQ seems to be 84, which is not that low, so there is a possibility dpmagician is technically correct

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  • 28 May '19
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Wow, someone is so butthurt they decided to necromancer a thread from February.
Get a spear in your life mate.

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  • 24 May '19
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I had a similar issue, which was caused by my router. If you have a cheap/old router, especially if you are using wifi, it might not be able to handle the amount of packets produced by Mordhau Frontline. For a comparison, try playing duels, that should be much more manageable

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  • 16 May '19
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@BudSpencer_vs_TheHound said:

@smellycathawk said:
ya but you can constantly shoot with a longbow at anyone from anywhere... you can constantly do damage, regardless of whether or not you are "getting kills" you are helping your team by suppressing the enemy, when half of them are at half health at the end of their charge cause you shot everyone, half will die and the other half will retreat, giving you 1 or 2 assists.

Going 15 kills and like 4 deaths and like 30 assists is a good score for an archer, what's wrong with that?

Its just not a satisfying playstyle if you have more assists then kills.Most people wouldn't like having more assists then kills for them self so they shouldn't expect others to play that way either.

And that the archer has theoretically a high damage output if he hits every shoot as head shot , is just not realistic to assume. Nobody is that perfect and certainly not the average archer player. If you like to proof me otherwise i would love to see you recording you playing as archer and then uploading it.

I do find it satisfying to play archer. It feels great to look out for fleeing low hp enemies and finish them off with a short bow shot to the leg :) Predicting someone's movement at long range and oneshotting their dumb naked head feels nice too.

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  • 16 May '19
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lol reacting to slashes with a stab against good players is a good way to die a quick and painful death

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  • 15 May '19
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Very cool to see almost all of my balance feedback addressed in the latest patch, but I don't understand why toolbox starts with 5/6 ammo. My point about it adding nothing but annoyance still stands.