Mordhau
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  • Date joined 27 Oct '15
  • Last seen 24 May

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  • 14 Sep '18
 vanguard

Hey Monsteri, what you think about what I said, that maybe if the edge of the sword followed the tracer path, drags would be more visible?

Honestly, for me drags are fucking fun as fuck. I love drags, the concept is amazing but the execution is not quite there yet I'd say. Also, about this point you made:

"At this point in development cycle any broader redesigns of combat systems are unlikely"

I think they can release the game without it being mechanically "complete". Or better yet, releasing the game doesn't mean that the mechanics and all are complete.

Point being, the devs could close mechanics development for now to focuss on the bulk of the game, and once released, they can revisit the combat system. In fact, I think it would be a HUGE mistake to not revisit the combat system from time to time, don't pull a TB on us triternion lol.

I feel like with time, devs will end up developing better methods of visualising drags. It is up to triternion tbh, and their final vision of this product.

I don't think it matters if the game is released with not all the mechanics as the devs want. See Stelaris for instance, the game released ages ago, but the devs still are pushing in new patches that completely changes the gameplay in crucial aspects. For one side, this gives the impression that people bought a unfinished product, on the other hand, the product you bought some time ago is getting actual value (that is, gameplay changes) as time goes on.

I like this model, of having the game development open for a real long time after release.

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  • 4
  • 12 Sep '18
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@wizardish said:

  • This thread focuses on the new player experience from what I've gathered. In that sense, (and knowing matchmaking will exist) why don't we focus on what noob vs noob fights will look like rather than some comp guy deleting some new player? In CS it certainly doesn't feel good when someone much better than you peeks a corner and insta one taps you. Noob vs noob situations look a lot different - usually both noobs spraying at each other and missing a significant amount of shots before one of them comes out on top. Sometimes they'll get a nice headshot or a perfect spray. I imagine a similar parallel in Mordhau.

They spam LMB. Sometimes they panic parry too lol. We are talking real, effective noobs right, chiv free weekend tier, the person's literal first experience

Noob X noob is by far the most hilarious thing to ever happen to this kind of game, I love playing with noobs lmao sometimes they are so fucking unpredictable, it is very educative to get hit by a noob tbh, shows glaring flaws in your playstile.

In a noob X noob scenario I think the game is actually quite fun, obviously this is theorycraft on my part as I am not a new player and I have not played this game with noobs, but seeing the mechanics and how they interact, I'd say that noobs might actually have a great time going against each other and discovering the game by themselves. One of them might find that feints are a powerful tool, while the other ends up focussing on using chambers because he discovers that chambers, or the mentality of attacking as a reaction might also be a real useful tool. The LMB spam might result in a lot of clashes too, which are very fun and absolutely "epic", no other game has nothing like this.

Honstly, I think that the most obscure mechanic thinking from a noob perspective still is dragging. No other game aside from chiv has this accelerate your attack thingy, most people expect "solid" timing on attacks, like Dark Souls or whatever.

I think that clashing, by far, is the best looking and the most epic aspect of mordhau's fighting system. It is really fun, I don't care if it is unbalanced or if it fucks with teamplay, they are something fun as fuck, specially when you first start playing the game. They can be used to show off the game etc, it is a very "natural" mechanic. I really wish this particular area of the game was more explored, but I also don't know what to suggest about it, other then idk, make easier to force clashes, like a defensive manuever. Someone overheads you, you slash his attack out of the way and combo into something etc, but this might play real shit, so idk really. Or maybe this is already even possible and I'm not aware of it because I only use slow weapons

Clashes are cool

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  • 11 Sep '18
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What if the edge of the sword, curved with the tracers? You know, imagine a wessex for example, you slash kinda above your opponent and then drop the attack on his shoulder/back, right?

What if the horizontal attack turned into a "overhead" depending on how you drag it? Woudn't that make it more readable/looking better? Specially in the case of waterfalls. You know, the edge of the weapon kinda follows where the tracers are going

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  • 5
  • 11 Sep '18
 vanguard

@Frise said:

@vanguard said:
But now everybody is "parry botting", with a drag heavy meta it will happen the same, people will drag all the time because if you don't you are objectively playing wrong.

The difference is that to bypass a parry with a delay, you have to make a big drag, and bait them to parry early by acceling them regularly. This is where interaction comes into play. When people chamber botted, any braindead slight drag go you a free hit.

Yeah, I like telegraphed delays and accel drags, I think they are healthy for the combat. But, the point was towards making it more directional and shit. The more directional the parrying is, the easier it is to make subtle shit connect, and subtle shit makes the game dumb imho, as it adds to much randomness in defense and its opressive beyond imagination, every riposte is a fuck, it takes alway incentive to do crazy footwork manuever because you can't run around like a retard if you have to keep reading each mouse movement your opponent makes.

but I don't know any realiable way to deffend against it feels more like I'm having to wait for you to comit a mistake making these drags, than me activelly disarming them.

They're incredibly punishable though, if you already parried and you see the wessex coming you can run into it and most times it will force a miss; Those drags are impossible to do if you run towards it. If you follow the weapon with your camera, it's possible to track it and parry it accordingly, when I went to Miami I played with rob owner and naeleus, who both use a lot of waterfalls, and I found it completely possible to simply parry these drags.

Yeah it is possible to parry these drags, but they are absolutely unintuitive. Every attack in this game requires that you more or less look at the direction the attack is coming, right. These attacks break this rule completely, instead of having to turn a bit to where the atack is coming from, you gotta center your screen on it and pray a lot. Honestly, against you I think I manage to parry/avoid this bullshit via footwork mostly lmao. The pojt is, it is unintuitive and looks exploity as fuck.

You know, as I said they do add skill to the game, same way backswings did to chivalry. But I don't find them fun atm, or better yet well fleshed out. They still look and feel exploity here.

It is that thing we were talking about, these drags are the sort of thing you won't see in any promotional video of this game, or any video that tries to convince people to join us in any form.

What I'm trying to say man is that drags are fun and skillful, but they are also frustrating and exploity.

Think about it, people hate feints because they are sort of a cheap deception right, drags are a very elaborate one. Some drags are way too elaborated way of decieving. You get what I mean? Like, you can expect a feint. You can read a feint by reading the situation you are in + your opponent, you don't rely 100% on reading the animation. These drags, any overhead can be one waterfall, any horizontal cut could be a wessex. You see, they are a very elaborate shit to deal with that can happen all the fucking time and you can't tell, I find annoying idk

Its like backswings man, any slash could be either a fucking delay of doom or a retarded backswing, same with overheads.

And like backswing, yeah, they are fun, but they have this very annoying aspect in it

Stabs are impossible to read reliably, they're borderline Chiv-tier. The only thing that keeps them from being full retarded are chambers, but that just makes it a boring mess of "chamber stabs or be forced to read ridiculous feints and morphs". And stabs are useless aside from feinting right now.

This true tbh stabs a fucko, too fast

Yeah I'm all for sidestabs and morphs bypassing direction. I'm against fucking subtle drags, these shit on the gameplay imho. Footdrags that looks like a accel etc, these things are cancer man. I understand they add dynamic and skill etc, but they are so fucking cancerous to deal with, it isn't fun. I mean yeah, it is fun to execute these manuevers, but to be on the recieving end? Fucking bulllshit I say.

I have to just disagree here; Playing in NA against Naeleus was thrilling, he just played with overheads but had incredible aim, and I had to constatly keep his weapon in the middle of my screen or he would hit me on the foot, head, or the other side with a waterfall. Even when defending, I was constantly doing something. (This was in patch 16 when parries had a reasonable size). Whenever I receive a wessex or waterfall here in SA, I just get a feeling of getting outplayed, because I know that it's not an easy thing to do. Instead when you get feinted, the other dude just pressed a button and you failed to defend against a very powerful attack.

I ended up answering this in the wall of text above I think. But as I was saying, for me it feels kinda like backswings in chiv.

This is why I don't really mind a shift towards feints, I find them better idk I like it more than to have to read a attack that looks like X, but it is actually Y

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  • 11 Sep '18
 vanguard

@TheShade said:

@vanguard said:
We already had a drag heavy meta, and it played pretty shitty tbh, to the point I was having more fun with chivalry than with this game.

Drag meta is full of retarded manuevers that are shit to defend against tbh, the game feels inconsistent and exploity.

Feints are much more clear, you Know why u got hit. Drags can be one or 3 other different things that you/your opponent did that resulted in a hit, some of these things have no intuitive way to deal with.

Accels and delays are also clear. Waterfall, frisedrag, footdrags, these aren't clear.

I think it's really poor design to have things like this. Think on quake, it is a consistent game with consistent mechanics. Easy to understand what is going on.

I legit don't get why a drag meta would be so much better and skillful.

The problem with Chivalry was the exploits it had. Why would you go back to Chivalry if you are tired of drags in mordhau? Chivalry's drags are a lot worse to read lol.

Well no lol, with patch 16 drags were WAY more readable in chiv then in Mordhau tbh. Although they did look worse, the point is that you could read it.

Drag meta matters because it actually takes skill to use.

And so does feints, think when you were a noob, did feints made you win against veterans? No, feints probably fucked you up even more. I get fucked all the time trying to feint here in this game, which means it isn't "press buton to win".

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  • 1
  • 11 Sep '18
 vanguard

@Frise said:

@vanguard said:
We already had a drag heavy meta

You mean when everybody was chamber botting so everyone just did subtle drags to avoid chambers?

Well ye that was shit but that was the fault of the chambers.

But now everybody is "parry botting", with a drag heavy meta it will happen the same, people will drag all the time because if you don't you are objectively playing wrong.

All these complex side-drags are fairly clear when on the receiving end once you know that they exist and how they work, it's just a matter of recognizing them as proper mechanics and explaining them to new players. If you're a new player in TF2 and you don't know what rocket jumping is, of course you're going to think "what the fuck that guy is cheating" when you see a soldier flying at 200km/h and oneshotting you with a shovel.

Yeah fair point but think about it, I have 2800h in chiv and almost 400 in this game and these drags still look fucked up when they land on you. I know what was that hitted me, but I don't know any realiable way to deffend against it feels more like I'm having to wait for you to comit a mistake making these drags, than me activelly disarming them.

With feints, I can read them and in a healthy gameplay situation, I would be able to punish it. My problem with feints is more related to weapon balancing than feints themselves.

With match-making though, noobs aren't gonna see a lot of this at all, because it takes a huge amount of practice to pull these drags off, so they realistically will only experience them commonly once they've climbed through the ranks and are ready to learn the intricacies of the combat. Meanwhile, if feints are this powerful, any person with 20 hours in the game can do an attack that takes hundreds of hours of practice to read properly.

I'm not even bothering wiht noobs here tbh, my point is that these drag heavy metas play bad in high level. I think it makes sense that the best noobs will be the ones who wait to parry instead of panicking all around. Remember that noobs fucking spam everything, this game kinda rewards that via FHF and chambers too in a low level fight. For a noob, it will be a fucking nightmare to feint another noob lol.

Even if these drags end up becoming a huge issue, you can just nerf them by adding turncap or adjusting release animations to curve towards a horizontal strike again. You can still have sidestabs and morphs to bypass direction.

Yeah I'm all for sidestabs and morphs bypassing direction. I'm against fucking subtle drags, these shit on the gameplay imho. Footdrags that looks like a accel etc, these things are cancer man. I understand they add dynamic and skill etc, but they are so fucking cancerous to deal with, it isn't fun. I mean yeah, it is fun to execute these manuevers, but to be on the recieving end? Fucking bulllshit I say. If we were to have these things, then the game must be slower overall. Releases, windups etc, everything slower so it gets readable, otherwise I'm full against it.

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  • 11 Sep '18
 vanguard

We already had a drag heavy meta, and it played pretty shitty tbh, to the point I was having more fun with chivalry than with this game.

Drag meta is full of retarded manuevers that are shit to defend against tbh, the game feels inconsistent and exploity.

Feints are much more clear, you Know why u got hit. Drags can be one or 3 other different things that you/your opponent did that resulted in a hit, some of these things have no intuitive way to deal with.

Accels and delays are also clear. Waterfall, frisedrag, footdrags, these aren't clear.

I think it's really poor design to have things like this. Think on quake, it is a consistent game with consistent mechanics. Easy to understand what is going on.

I legit don't get why a drag meta would be so much better and skillful.

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  • 9 Sep '18
 vanguard

@Pred said:

@vanguard said:
Chiv is slower yet there its harder to read stuff, insta hits all the goddamn time, norse sword, broken feints, broken drags, no chambers, clashes or morphs. Mordhau is objevtively better tbh, it is literally chivalry but fixed and improved uppon its best aspects.

There are more insta hits and more Norse Swords in Mordhau than there were in Chivalry tbh, 1handers are absolute terminal AIDS. You could gamble trade against Norse, it was a retarded thing but it was a counter of sorts and trades made lighter classes think at least SOMETIMES before spamming. Here you just midlessly gamble into everything that's not a riposte and when you get a hit in you take them through a ride of 50/50 guesses on your combos and combo feints. Chambers are a decoratory mechanic, you would probably perform better if you never attempt them, clashes only screw you when you try to target switch.

Yeah you have a point tbh, but honestly idk if its one handers or stabs. I mean, they are naturally more annoying to fight against, but the stabs are just a fuck, maybe its because they are fast and have long reach, so ends up being opressive as fuck against slower weapons.

I disagree about chambers though, I think they open up the gameplay via chamber feints and morphs, in 1vX it is kinda useless though because you cant hittrade with it and it doesn't have active parry anymore.

Idk about clashes too, I think they can actually end up being useful in 1vX if you have a big weapon and luck, at least I haven't found a way to actually use the mechanic consistently, it seems to just happen randomly and if you see it comming and your opponent doesn't, you sometimes can use it to your advantage, sometimes.

Mordhau IS objectively better, just not nearly as much better or as much different as I thought it would be. Right now mechanics-wise it's just a refurbished Chivalry, far from being a next step in the genre.

Well, think on arena shooters. We had doom first, then the next step was quake. Quake isn't much more then a refurbished doom, yet it is the next step in the genre.

I think that a lot of people that expects that mordhau will be a revolution mechanics wise will inevitably end up disapointed, as it is more of a refinement. Chivalry was the revolution, think about it, mordhau is the next step, that is refining that idea.

What can be revolutionary compared to chiv, or most other online games, is the Frontline mode, with all the roleplay shit avaliable. The whole interaction with the map etc. Chivalry had the potential of becoming a big medieval roleplay sandbox in a way, mordhau seems to be capitalizing on this.

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  • 9 Sep '18
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@Pred said:

@Seseau said:

@Pred said:

@Seseau said:
I hope Frontline comes out soon, so we can give feedback on the real game instead of this endless cycle of back and forth between feints, chambers, drags, ripostes and so on.

Combat, no matter how good, will only carry this game so far.

If it's bad, it will drag it down though, exactly as it did with Chiv.

That is true, but I'd say the combat is already far better than it was in Chiv. The current alpha is terrible for judging that though, because a large percentage of the current playerbase is already immensely good at the game.

Combat is better by the virtue of removing two garbage mechanics in backswings and trades (removing trades actually favors the more skileld players though). The other parts of combat I think are just slightly different here and there, not necessarily better than Chiv unfortunately.

Chiv is slower yet there its harder to read stuff, insta hits all the goddamn time, norse sword, broken feints, broken drags, no chambers, clashes or morphs. Mordhau is objevtively better tbh, it is literally chivalry but fixed and improved uppon its best aspects.

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  • 7 Sep '18
 vanguard

The problem I see with the idea of making parry more directional, like having to look up to parry a overhead, is that the animation for overhead allow you to fake out so fucking easily, and there is no way around this, its related to the angle of the attack. I'm absolutely against this shit, it doesn't look good, it doesn't play good, the visual clues are non-existent and the skill it adds is negligible because its a dumb easy manuever to make if parries are more directional, while being a pain in the ass to deffend against.

Same shit with stabs, it is braindead easy to fake a left stab but land on the right side, if parry is more directional, its easier to execute these manuevers. I'd rather have them being hard to execute then common place. Again, it doesn't look any better then feints too.

This "takning turn" thing makes absolutely no sense or I am really not following the logic behind this argument, because essentialy you are all the time taking turns, the only moment this doesn't happen is when both fighters are not fighting, or when a clash happens. If your opponent attacks before you, you wait, read, react. You are taking turns all the fucking time with every single mechanic avaliable, dafuck is the point with this argument. Tell me, what sort of mechanic you guys want that will make so both players imput at the same time instead of taking turns? Turn the game into a big clash fight?

Feints are braindead easy to use when you are using something fast like a bastard sword in a duel against a halberd or zwei, because it is so fucking hard to punish feints with slow weapons, and stabs are a pain to read at the moment. It isn't a problem with feints, its a problem with how fights goes with certain weapons against others, and weird fast as fuck stabs.

I think that aside from stabs, the mechanics are in a very good place depending on which weapon u use against other weapons. I'd say most problems now result from timings of the weapons than the mechanics themselves.

Right now, it is not easy to land a feint depending on the weapon you are using/going against, but with some weapons it is.

I think overall that fast weapons, specially swords, are pretty unfair. They get excelent turncap, fucking good stabs, morphs, feints, damage, reach.. everything is fucking great, there is no downside it seems. 1h weapons can drag pretty well AND have the hardest to deal with feints, this is not balanced imho. Either remove their drags, or make the feints easier to deal with on 1h weapons tbh both its just too fucking much. Another option could be to buff bigger weapons, give halberd, zwei, spear etc better turncap.

Point being, I think drags are in a exelent spot and feints too, but weapons need balancing.

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  • 27 Aug '18
 vanguard

@Ceril said:
Hey guys, I'm not sure what's going on with my game, but i'm unable to join any servers.
Whenever I click join, it endlessly says "Joining Server" But nothing ever happens.
When I attempt to use local play, the bots spin in place and then I get booted for losing connection after about 3 minutes.

Has anyone experience this before?

Yep, back in patch 16. The Brazillian server would glitch (or at least this is what we thought it was happening, because no one I knew could join it) and would become stuck in the "joining server" thing. If I didn't restarted the game and created one with bots, they would behave as you describe. Restarting the game and directly creating a match with bots fixed it.

The "joining server" thing would fix itself with time, or someone fixed the server, idk really.

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  • 14 Jul '18
 vanguard

WRIIIII

It was funny I give u that lmao

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  • 14 Jul '18
 vanguard

Gambling is better to avoid feints then chambers lmaoe

But srsly, it's not that hard to hard read feints in this build. Drags are by far much worse to deal with.

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  • 9 Jul '18
 vanguard

Standalone morphs are indeed kinda stupid imho exactly because of this

...The result being that this brainless mechanic will not only successfully counter chambers whilst also acting as a feint by threatening an insta-hit

The insta-hit here is the key to understand the cancerous aspect of it.

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  • 6 Jul '18
 vanguard

I legit think there is something wrong with servers. The Brazillian server, when iddle for some time, becomes impossible to join. It is broken atm, this isn't even the first time. Seems like always that we here stop playing on it for say, a week, the server gets all broken and no one can join.

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  • 20 Jun '18
 vanguard

@Ignorance Brigade said:
At least i broke the seal and put my two cents on rrgarding something.

People say that games get better when devs hear the community, but the community must speak up it's mind to the devs for this to work.

You do good by posting ideas tbh, even if in a first moment they sound not viable for some reason or another, it's important to have as many ideas around as possible imho, for when the devs feels the need to hear us, they have where to look up and find our views.

You are only contributing to the community and game by posting ideas and generating discussions about the game imho.

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  • 22 May '18
 vanguard

Halberd is big, alt mode has even more of the big

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  • 16 May '18
 vanguard

What I think its worse here then in Chiv is what seems to be insta-hits, or hits landing on you earlier then it looks like they should.

@das said:

@vanguard said
Once I stopped doing this and fought normally, I could use footwork to chamber attacks that probably were aimed to throw of my Parry, that is, those more telegraphed, less subtle drags. Turns out that if your opponent doesn't expect you to chamber a lot, he ends up throwing attacks that are easier to chamber.

In the end, if you put yourself in a situation that you need to chamber, and your opponent knows that, you are fucked. Like being out of stamina, is one of these situations.

What I'm doing is, playing really conservative with lots of parryies, not using radical drags that can easily miss and using range mind-games to try and force my opponent to miss or ftp, so I win the stamina game. Chambers are a bonus that can help me win the stamina thing. Hard reading Feints and morphs also rekts their stamina real fast.

I'm playing more around punishing mistakes or dumb risks taken by my opponent, denying chambers and stamina management.

This is a pretty eloquent summary. Balancing chambers, parries, and utilizing footwork to supplement the two (along with hard feint reads, successful baits, and successful kicks being increasingly bigger bonuses) is what it's all about.

For instance, Zwei's good at stamming out people because it's a heavy weapon and it's too risky to chamber all the drags and morph drags, but it's not good at killing fast in a duel since the feints are useless and it's not hard to parry it per se and you definitely can't interrupt/flinch greedy/gambley plays as easily with it like you can with a Rapier. Something more versatile like a Greatsword is generally more threatening in a duel because it has more potent feints and accels while still retaining competent drags, so it's tougher for the enemy to know whether to parry or chamber, but the slightly shorter range and lesser stam negation could mean it takes that one extra crucial attack to stam someone out. On the other extreme end, fast weapons tend to be on a bit of a timer because their lack of draggability makes them easier to chamber, they're harder to chamber with because they're shorter, they have less stam negation and drain, and they rely more on feints. If you can't force the duel to a halt to regain stamina when you're low, you're in some trouble.

True man, the zwei can be quite versatile if you consider its alt-mode. It works pretty good in duels, give it enough speed to be considerably safer against gambles, and makes easier to reclaim initiative.

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  • 16 May '18
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@yourcrippledson said:

@das said:
Zwei's good at stamming out people because it's a heavy weapon and it's too risky to chamber all the drags and morph drags, but it's not good at killing fast in a duel since the feints are useless and it's not hard to parry it per se and you definitely can't interrupt/flinch greedy/gambley plays as easily with it like you can with a Rapier.

This is why I complain about zwei for duels. Give me a poke to work with so it is more than just a BORING battle of attrition every time I fight another good player with it.

I kinda like these battle of atritions tbh, I always liked to play more defensively, so zwei and this fighting style suits me very well.

What gets to me is what appears to be insta hits. Fucking hate these things man, specially annoying because I use light class.

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  • 16 May '18
 vanguard

Wasn't this record that day that I played with you? Holy shit, having to deal with these waterfalls with 170 ping was PAINFUL lol

I spoke mad shit when I said that using footwork to force chambers was theorycraft. It just seemed to me way too unreliable, and tbh it is, if you do as I did.

What I was doing sometimes was trying to chamber everything, for science. To try and find a way to reliably chamber your opponent, while he knows you will try to chamber stuff and actively try to throw you off. Needless to say I could not find a way to do so.

Once I stopped doing this and fought normally, I could use footwork to chamber attacks that probably were aimed to throw of my Parry, that is, those more telegraphed, less subtle drags. Turns out that if your opponent doesn't expect you to chamber a lot, he ends up throwing attacks that are easier to chamber.

In the end, if you put yourself in a situation that you need to chamber, and your opponent knows that, you are fucked. Like being out of stamina, is one of these situations.

What I'm doing is, playing really conservative with lots of parryies, not using radical drags that can easily miss and using range mind-games to try and force my opponent to miss or ftp, so I win the stamina game. Chambers are a bonus that can help me win the stamina thing. Hard reading Feints and morphs also rekts their stamina real fast.

I'm playing more around punishing mistakes or dumb risks taken by my opponent, denying chambers and stamina management.