Mordhau
 Elder
  • Likes received 70
  • Date joined 22 Oct '17
  • Last seen 11 Apr

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36 70
 Elder

Personal Opinions on Mordhau mechanics and how they are flawed in comparison to Chivalry Medieval Warfare, and how they should possibly be altered.

(I do believe mordhau has a lot of potential, and is structured in a way that changes to the values of the already installed mechanics can alter the game to make it more competitive and allow a higher more consistent skill ceiling for 1vX and possibly 1v1. I do give credit to the fact that Chivalry is a very flawed game and I will list what I like about Mordhau over chivalry at the bottom)

My main concern with the base game mechanics of Mordhau mainly lay with the parry lockout feature of the game. This mechanic is the amount of time an opponent has to wait before winding up again after being parried by another opponent. In the current state of the game, this window is very very short. And I understand why it is this way, it allows the initial opponent to “punish slow inputs”, as well as chamber incoming attack accels from neutral. However, this affects other aspects of the game strongly, and in my opinion, negatively.

Because of the extremely short parry lockout, people are encouraged to be constantly winding up after being parried if the opponent doesn't riposte at them directly. This here is the main reason 1vX is inconsistent, and needed riposte trading as a form of a solution. In Chivalry, after being parried, you're forced to wait almost double the lockout time as you are in Mordhau, encouraging the person in the 1vX scenario to feint or switch in between lockout periods. This also encourages double parrying, as the person in the 1vX scenario then has solid initiative for say, 400ms.

In Mordhau, if I were to parry-to-parry to avoid trading or having the opponent just hit me and FTP my riposte, and I were then to riposte off the 2nd parry back at the initial opponent, there's not only a good chance, but a very high probability that the 1st person I initially parried, is already out of windup and entering release, recreating the 1st scenario. If I were to parry again, I could find myself in a loop of parry-to-parrying until I inevitably get stammed out. This being against good players who know how to play off each other and vary the timing of when they feed.

In chivalry, If I were to parry-to-parry to avoid trading or having an opponent just hit me and FTP my riposte, I could instead use the lockout time to move around the engagement to reposition for a cleaner 1vX, AKA Kiting, or I could throw out some feints which could potentially create openings, or I could also target switch off the 2nd parry-to-parry riposte, potentially faking or directly hitting either opponent. The timings in Chivalry 1vX were far more consistent for competitive gameplay. It was often seen as noobish to consistently 1st hit riposte trade opponents. A lot of the time players doing that would be just first hit and killed, or parried and abused in their own parry-lockout recovery. In Mordhau, the “skillful” based 1vXing relies on trading HP almost exclusively. Kiting still exists, not to the same degree. Getting surrounded in 1vX in Mordhau almost inevitably means death.

Another aspect of the game in Mordhau that degrades the consistency of 1vX, is the chambering itself. Target switching in Mordhau is only effective off riposting away from your original opponent, which if done off max range of the weapon, cannot even be punished by the person being parried due to an absurd distance of ground covered in the lunge of the release. Otherwise, if you're attempting to target switch in Mordhau, there's a /chance/ that your fake will just be chamber-attempted, hitting you on the switch immediately, not allowing you to fake switch back to the initial target switched off of, or allowing you to switch without getting hit in the back. This doesn't only affect 1vX, but also affects the base games team fighting all around. Its created a meta of ripost flying across the map for no risk, and a constant state of backpedaling after attacking to ensure all enemies are closely in front of you to avoid not seeing a chamber attempt on a target switch and allowing you to FTP if necessary.

Now on the whole, I think that chambering has become a makeup for the games lacking consistency in animation reading. If you were to play Mordhau without chambers, it would be quite difficult to read animations. Especially considering the feint recovery windows are so short that punishing a feint is inconsistent. With the current build of the game, the meta is around hard reading morphs, and chambering stabs and the follow-up on morphed attacks, along with backpedaling in a straight line to allow an easier time reading anims.

Even in chivalry, backpedaling is a viable, and should be used, mechanic for reading facehug anims put inside your player model. However, in Chivalry, because of the parry lockout, you had time and movement for repositioning in engagements much more freely than strictly backpedaling after being parried.

Now I have a lot of issues with the currents build application of feints. Like stated earlier, I believe that chambers are makeup for the poor animations. What I mean by this, is because of the low feint recovery, in combination with the EXTREMELY late feint windows (as in being very close to release windows), hard reading every animation just isn't an option. In chivalry, the animations were the problem for players not being able to read feint windows. As in, if you knew how to play, you could accel the living shit out of your attack tracer, and it became too similar to the deep feint windows. This is how double-parrying became a meta, and this is why comp mod increased the feint recovery. There was no way to consistently read in chivalry due to poor anims. In Mordhau, the release and windup are just too close together to hard read without chambering. In my opinion, this isn't a skillful based solution to a problem that existed in CMW. It adds a level of RNG, to when a player should and shouldn't be chambering. Again and again I've said that consistency is a huge issue this game has. I think without chambering to hide the poor, late release windows of the feints, used as an excuse of how one “should have played” given the specific scenario, the game would be seen in its true form as poorly optimized for competitive play.

Punishing feints is a good thing, and I think most veterans of melee games would agree with that. It's a skillful mechanic to seize initiative. With the current build of the game, this is overshadowed by chambering. Skillful players in Mordhau will feint their faked chamber attempts, and this has created a skill ceiling to the game. However, this has also encouraged both parties in a fight to be consistently winding up with the short parry lockout. In combination, in high skill play, if a skilled, non profiled player were to stab gamble the risk to reward outcome is too high in the current state of the game. Because of players always winding up, often other players will, what we call in NA, “no fear” feint during the opponent's starting windup, because players that consistently gamble and are profiled are played against differently, and usually don't receive /too/ much success in high tier play. This is fine, and was similar in chivalry, however the parry lockout feature allowed more time to input while simultaneously reading accelerated animations from the opponent.

What I want in a competitive melee game is consistency. There's a lot Mordhau has going for it, but there's a lot of mechanical aspects of the game that are lacking, and in my opinion should be changed.

For instance, I think the game would be better with chambering. The game should have more of a defined initiative, and in such would increase team fighting and 1vX capability. Im not just a chiv fanboy, though. I think there should be application to chambering, as its a niche interesting mechanic that is attractive and appealing. A personal idea I thought for it would be to have it be used as a double parry mechanic. Deep feints having a slightly longer feint recovery, and chambering attempts having a slightly shorter lockout after you parry. An example of this would be, you fall for a deep in-your-face gross fucking animation stab feint and you have parried. You are then in parry cooldown waiting for your ability to parry again, in place, your ability to wind up an attack is slightly shorter than the parry cooldown, allowing you, with some footwork, to chamber the followed up attack on the deep feint, at a cost of stamina.

A different idea for how chambering would work as a general mechanic would be having it innately only be for stabs on equal initiative. It could be morphed and even feinted, but this way itd have a suitable application for punishing stab feints, and stab target switches. Morphs would be untouched in the game, and so this would still have its place in the game as a core mechanic. Because of the increased parry lockout, it would not work if they parried you, followed by an immediate stab accel.

One more aspect that alters the games meta is off-screen dragging and swing manipulation. Now, I didn't make the game so I'm not sure how much testing they did with this, and maybe off-screen drags are the way to go to avoid abusive swing manipulation like in Chivalry. However, if it can be avoided, I think it should. Inputting while looking at the opponent to watch their inputs is an extremely important aspect to a melee game. It allows skillful players to FTP when necessary, IE, when getting gambled or punished on a morph feint. It also allows the person attacking to process information in the actual engagement, rather than staring up into the clouds to hit that sick drag. Dragging is going to be inevitable as its very strong, so if that's all the off-screen shit was supposed to discourage, it didn't work and should be changed. It's perhaps more easily telegraphed, but in a game that's equally designed for new players as well as competitive ones, it looks like shit. It's not an attractive feature to the game, and doesn't help the meta of the competitive-based scene either.
Another aspect of how 1vX is affected by swing manipulation, is the lack of turn cap on every weapon in the game. “Turn capping” an enemy in chivalry guaranteed freedom of movement by skillful players, allowing reposition simply by reading and reacting to the tracers the enemy is using. Because the turn cap is so high in Mordhau, there's no chance of running in between enemies without getting pegged (unless they are bad, tbh). But a skillful player wouldn't do this much to begin with, as with the short parry lockout, getting surrounded is death. The meta this creates is again, heavily back pedal focused. Restriction of movement. An issue the game has had since alpha release.

In addition, not being able to parry in flinch is stupid. If two enemies hit me within quick secession, I should be able to parry the 2nd enemy after getting flinched. Otherwise the random timing windows have a strong chance to just eliminate you from the game for 1 mistake. As the hit to kill can be quite low depending the build. That extra opportunity for proper defense is important for a higher skill ceiling.

Clashing is a mechanic that isn't that detrimental for the competitive scene, but does not add anything positive as well. Its slightly irritating at times, and usually forces the person to FTP. Just delaying the combat, slowing down the pace of the engagement.

IMO, mordhau is good. And in comparison to chivalrys dogshit netcode, some would argue it's a better game. Reverses removed, great. Desyncs gone, awesome. Hit trading on equal initiative deleted, thank god. But as a competitive game, I think its in a state when combat is not as consistent. I think it has a lower skill ceiling than chivalry, because of all the aspects of RNG mechanics that have no strictly dedicated use. I know over 95% of the competitive chivalry players dropped mordhau months ago because they had issues with things that havent been changed since alpha release. Now, there's a new breed of pubbers from chivalry that play it “competitively” but in NA, even that is seen as inconsistent and low skill ceiling to the few surviving comp vets that stayed with Mordhau through this past year.

This is a lot of change to the current meta of the game, and it's very very unlikely any of it will implemented, but at the very least, I think it should be tested. No testing for any of these changes to the values of lockout or feint recovery or anything have even been touched and it's a shame because compmod did a lot of things right, intentional or not, and these changes to base game created an extremely varied game, open for a plethora of different playstyles, techniques, and ultimately added to the contribution of a very high skill ceilinged game. The inspiration for this game.

  • Joshua
36 70
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  • 25 May '18
 Elder

I hate how criticism of Mordhau ends up being shit-slinging at chivalry. It reminds me of the republican party pointing fingers at Hilary - despite it being two years after the fact. Take it in the chin that Mordhau isn't superior to Chivalry in every single possible way and figure out how to fix whatever issue is presented rather than point fingers at Chivalry.

36 70
  • 22 May '18
 Elder

Messer = 8 bananas

36 70
  • 22 May '18
 Elder

Any noob can pick up a bow and point & click, but not every noob can do a chamber wessex morph feint reverse uppercut.

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  • 22 May '18
 Elder

This forum is a cesspool of ignorance. Have some faith in huggles and crush. They have thousands of hours in slasher games and can tell you from experience that projectiles are nothing but fun at the expense of others.

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  • 18 May '18
 Elder

.

36 70
  • 18 May '18
 Elder

@SK.Edam said:
I beg to differ, i barely see any unsatisfied alpha players only a few retards who are shit at the game so they "demand" the devs to implement shit that will supposedly make the game better other than that i dont see cancerous topics in the forum you should check bannershit forums if you think this one is bad lol.

That's because the unsatisfied alpha players left months ago. I'd rather the devs listen to them than those who think this game is idyllic.

36 70
  • 17 May '18
 Elder

Crush has amnesia and forgot that kick stun is a bad idea.

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  • 16 May '18
 Elder

How do you people believe that everything Mordhau implements is inherently better than Chivalry?

Not only is that reasoning improbable, but this relentless Mordhau shilling will ostracize those who do have legitimate criticisms about the game.

I genuinely do not find the movement to be better than chivalry's. The bubble is bigger, getting hit in Mordhau nearly halts you, the initial sprint speed is slower, and you can attack sooner after being parried, resulting in teamfights being much more static than in chiv.

36 70
  • 15 May '18
 Elder

Chivalry had more liberating movement and a more arcadey feel. Mordhau feels like a constant crabwalk.

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  • 7 May '18
 Elder

They should just increase the parry lockout a lot. Yeah, you won't be able to chamber ripostes, but since you can't feint ripostes, does it really matter? Would give much needed breathing room for teamfighting and we wouldn't have to rely on trading/taking damage in order to 1vX.

Additionally, remove the movement penalty when hit - that neuters 1vX. Make movement more arcadey - probably increase the base sprint accel when you immediately hit sprint but keep the top speeds the same.

Edit: Also, running around someone's bubble takes much longer in this game compared to chiv.

36 70
  • 2 May '18
 Elder

Initiative and reading/punishing feints all died with hit recovery.

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  • 27 Apr '18
 Elder

Fights crouched and stationary

Complains about drags

36 70
  • 24 Apr '18
 Elder

No, more shit in the game == higher skillgap. That's the whole design philosophy of mordhau.

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  • 18 Apr '18
 Elder

Kick's better than what use to be, but it's starting to be used offensively again, which is the main problem. You can do shit like stab with a maul, intentionally miss, kick, then get a free 1htk. You can hit someone with the end of the release phase, which will stagger them long enough so they cant backpedal a kick. Pressing F because my opponent pressed F is not a fun gameplay mechanic and dumbs down the gameplay.

36 70
  • 13 Apr '18
 Elder

@TwistedFox said:

@Elder said:

Yet you're probably right, making parry easier would simply turn most experienced players into impenetrable walls in the point of view of a casual player.

I doubt that. You can spam Q and molest your mouse and make anyone panic parry.

That's when you are panicked. If you have played the game enough you will be a lot calmer and if you haven't already gotten hit you could probably just sit and stare while they do this shit everytime.

Lookdown overhead riposte/chamber feints are unreactable. By the time you realize it's not a feint you're already hit.

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  • 12 Apr '18
 Elder

Tighter parry windows won't affect much since the majority of the time you get hit is by falling for feints. They have to address feints before they alter parrying/drags/footwork.

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  • 12 Apr '18
 Elder

Yet you're probably right, making parry easier would simply turn most experienced players into impenetrable walls in the point of view of a casual player.

I doubt that. You can spam Q and molest your mouse and make anyone panic parry.

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  • 11 Apr '18
 Elder

Mordhau is as cheesy as chiv imho:

The meta revolves around spamming riposte/chamber feints and mindlessly stab gambling.

Feints and misses aren't punishable 95% of the time (and by punish I mean by hitting them), because you can just ftp/cftp/combo out the mistake. This negates footwork, reading your opponent, and forcing mistakes. Try missing an attack then immediately parrying - that should be the lockout for messing up. However you can just combo into a ftp if you miss, making lockouts or times when you're vulnerable hardly existent.

Stamina hardly balances anything since you can just backpedal and regen incredibly quickly.

Hit recovery. (devs addressed this)

Active parry is still inferior to chiv's unflinchable windup. In chiv you could easily 1v3/4 if you were skilled enough. In mordhau you have to "kite" people and/or get a lucky active parry lmb.

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  • 27 Mar '18
 Elder

Make feints more punishable so I can feel like omniscient god again.