Mordhau
 Havoc
  • Likes received 4264
  • Date joined 16 May '16
  • Last seen 10 Sep '19

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3234 4264
  • 23 Feb '18
 Havoc

@DerFurst said:
The only thing I expect is for crush to ban half the forums before the game comes out, and I'm not disappointed yet

I get a free soda the next time I'm banned from the forums

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  • 23 Feb '18
 Havoc

@DerFurst said:
This is a really dumb reason to argue with the developers about when there are so many better reasons to right now.

The Estoc SHOULD use mordhau because
1: It allows it to be used in a wider variety of circumstances and against more types of opponents, making it less one-dimensional. This is good because it's intended to be a main weapon, and you may not always carry a sidearm.
2: It allows the MORDHAU grip, which is the name of the game, to be used on more than just one weapon in the entire game.

Now that the important stuff is out of the way,

3: Half-swording to stab inbetween gaps in armor is indeed one intended use of the estoc, but that technique was also heavily combined with close quarters fighting and grappling for maximum effect. This game doesn't intend to depict close range fighting accurately. As such, you can view the half-swording techniques done on the greatsword and zweihander as simply choking up on the blade to make it less unwieldy in a fight, rather than using it as a thrust specific technique.
4: There's no reason to assume you couldn't use mordhau any less effectively with the estoc than a longsword. I'd actually think it to be more practical, since you don't have to worry at all about cutting your hands on the dull edge of an estoc compared to a sharpened longsword.
5: Any smart man would use his weapons to defeat his enemies in whatever fashion is necessary. If the estoc user is finding it particularly hard to find exposed points to thrust into, such as in a well constructed armor for a noble, he might just find it easier to bash their head in like a smart person.

  1. That could potentially detract from the role of other weapons, why bother using something that's just worse or doesn't have the amount of variety in a single weapon.

  2. That's not a good justification at all, you don't forcefully attach mechanics to weapons for the sake of branching out a mechanic because there aren't any other weapons that use that mechanic.

  3. Couldn't the same exact logic then be applied to choking up the estoc blade?

  4. It's actually worse grip wise as you have less surface area to press your palm and finger against. You also run into the potential issue of having the blow easily glance due to having thicc rigid blades with diamond, triangular, or square cross sections.

  5. Any smart man would use a weapon in their designed roll to the best of their ability. The estoc was also very good for grappling, and would have probably been more effective doing that than attempting to bash through plate armor.

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  • 22 Feb '18
 Havoc

@Grator said:
Since you don't seem to understand what I'm trying to explain, watch this video about John Clements explaining halfswording techinques, wich includes the mordhau grip.

So what would you call the alt-grip for the greatsword/zweighhander, and the alt-grip for the longsword?

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  • 22 Feb '18
 Havoc

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Alt grip for flail will be Mordhau grip ^

Why not at this point

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  • 22 Feb '18
 Havoc

@crushed said:

@Havoc said:
Wait, but by that same logic, what about the spear, the billhook, poleaxe, BattleAxe, and the Zeighhander? The real only main different being the estoc has less range. Yet it has just about the same range as a greatsword, but was more so designed for thrusting.

What about it ? None of those weapons have a support main mode apart from the spear.

Support main mode? The default spear mode is extremely viable in 1 v 1 duels, oberyn can attest to that, the alt mode just makes it even more deadlier in 1 v 1s. Pretty much any weapon with long range can be delegated to a support role, such as the zweighhander and the halberd. If the spear's main mode was supposed to be a support main mode, you'd think it would be a bit more unwieldy relying on having to support another player, rather than being extremely viable regardless of supporting or not.

In terms of mordhau the estoc shouldn't be an all round, that role should be delegated to the longsword

Most swords in Mordhau are all rounders.

And that's also an issue, I wouldn't ever pick-up a mace if a Bastard sword is good enough. Blades are just too viable against everything, and I've never felt incentivised to use a high alpha damage weapon against T3 users. I know that Mordhau emphasizes a certain amount of hits to kill, as well as quick combat flow, but atm a lot of weapons feel like underpowered or overpowered sidegrades. And from what I can gather, NA meta seems to be 3/3/3 longsword, whilst EU meta is 3/3/3 Baxe.

And ironically the Estoc mordhau grip would be a more duel focused alt mode that using the half-sword grip.

This is wrong. Mordhau grip has slower attacks but more damage, which translates to better team fight potential. Kinda like the bastard sword is amazing in duels but is a bit worse in teamfights than the other swords. Estoc main mode has faster attacks which makes it better for dueling.

Wait... so you're telling me the Estoc main mode... is meant for duels... and the mordhau grip is meant for.... teamfights? You do know the mordhau grip has less range... right? Where as the main mode has more range, and it's main attack is a stab, a high damage fast stab that is less likely to hit teammates in group fights.

And going back on that... I've really only seen players use the mordhau grip in duels, due to having reduced range against pole arms, and less stab damage, and lower multi-hit potential.

You run into an issue where players won't bother to use the grip if the default mode can get the job done with only 1~2 extra hits.

It's not an issue, its just a choice how you want to play. Alt modes were never intended to be required to use in situations, but an alternate optimal choice.

Yet you're buffing alt-grips such as the mordhau grip to get more players to use them. As we've seen through the alpha, if there's no greater intensification to use an alt grip, players will just stick to what they're comfortable and most effective with. If that's not an issue, why bother buffing the grip?

I don't think haphazardly forcing the Estoc into this role was productive or healthy for the weapon type or Mordhau's diversity. If you really wanted to diversify you could've updated one of the weapons that aren't getting much love or attention, such as the billhook. And by that "2" logic, what about warhammer/poleaxe/halberd, Baxe/Billhook/Qstaff/Eveningstar, or all the throwable weapons. Not really a great justification tbh.

It doesn't mean that there should be 2 of each alt mode and no alt mode having more than 2, but that Mordhau grip is the only alt mode in the game which was only used on one weapon. This makes it so that every alt mode is in the game atleast twice.

So... because the mordhau grip was only used once, it was hammered onto another weapon type? What's wrong with just having unique weapons? All of the weapon types in mordhau share animation sets and alternate grips, maybe a bit more uniqueness or diversity would've been better, even if it does require more work, at least then weapons would feel and operate differently.

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  • 22 Feb '18
 Havoc

@Grator said:
Quillons are a part of the guard, not directly interchangeable but it doesn't matter, don't even know why would you bring this up.

I brought it up because you said:
"You can either hit with the pommel or with the quillons, when you say the guard it's in the way you are clearly showing your lack of understanding.".

To which I responded:
"Quillion and crossguard are interchangeable. Infact, quillion is the lesser know term."

I am indeed justifying the mordhau grip on the estoc, I thought that this is what this discussion was about. lol.

It's obvious that you don't want to learn anything here. But I'm going to try anyways. The blade is made from carbon steel and thus it has spring properties, but estoc blades are thicker and flex less by design. Also since you like wikipedia so much, why don't you search for half sword.

I did search for half sword. That's why I know that Half-Sword and the Mordhau grip are two separate grips.

Mordhau is a technique inherited from halfswording so all of this discussion is eternally pointless and you are just dragging it out for no good reason at this stage.

This is quite misleading as a half-sword grip and the mordhau grip are two different grips altogether, and is shown in the game you're developing with the Longsword, and the Greatsword being an example.

If you can't provide any real context on why nobody ever mordhaued an estoc let me know and I'll just close the thread

I have provided context, there's no evidence that the Estoc was used in a mordhau grip, the Estoc was designed for thrusting, and there's tons of evidence of it being used half-sword, and it's method of bypassing armor was to thrust into the gaps using half-swording... making a hypothetical mordhau grip redundant.

At this point you're the one providing no context and you just want an excuse to lock a thread that you don't like.

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  • 22 Feb '18
 Havoc

@Vq.Raccoon said:
I wonder how many points the Estoc will cost 🧐

7 points according to Jax

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  • 22 Feb '18
 Havoc

@crushed said:

@Havoc said:

@crushed said:

@Havoc said:
2 . You already have weapons with the same design philosophy, for example the spear. There's so much you could have done, such as taking range, speed, and damage into account. You've already done so with other weapons. What makes this so different? You're turning the Estoc into an inbred longsword.

It's not the same. The spear covers 2 playstyles, the long mode being a support weapon and the short grip being a dueling weapon. The Estoc main mode stab already has good speed and damage, and making that even better would result in a cheesy and unfun weapon to fight against. So it goes from a stabbing weapon to a slashing weapon, just like Zweihander and Greatsword go from being slashing weapons to stabbing weapons.

That's the issue I don't understand though. By that logic, the default "long"/main mode could've been a support weapon with range, and the short grip a dueling weapon.

The argument that the default "long"/main mode "already has good speed and damage, and making that even better would result in a cheesy and unfun weapon to fight against." doesn't hold much merit because these are just values/variables you can adjust on a whim.

From what I understand, the original design goal was to make it a greatsword with weaker slashes and stronger stabs.... what happened?

Unless you're speaking mechanically, which is disproved by weapons with decent stab damage, such as the greatsword, and the spear.

So please tell me, in what situations would you use the default "long"/main mode, and the mordhau grip mode?

The estoc is a faster greatsword with more focus on stabs and weak slashes. It makes no sense to make the main mode a support mode, because it doesn't suit the weapon.

Wait, but by that same logic, what about the spear, the billhook, poleaxe, BattleAxe, and the Zeighhander? The real only main different being the estoc has less range. Yet it has just about the same range as a greatsword, but was more so designed for thrusting.

Its a dueling weapon and a team fight weapon in one like the other swords. The spear has a support main mode because of its huge range and because its a spear, it only makes sense just from the weapon itself. The estoc main mode is a good allrounder with more focus on stabs, so having a duel focused alt mode makes no sense.

IRL it was a war weapon that became popular later on for dueling. In terms of mordhau the estoc shouldn't be an all round, that role should be delegated to the longsword where it actually makes more sense, blade for quishy, mordhau grip for t3. And ironically the Estoc mordhau grip would be a more duel focused alt mode that using the half-sword grip. So really in the end, the mordhau grip would just be the same thing, except buffing the Estoc into a mace when dueling instead of a long rigid rapier as was intended.

Mordhau alt mode is being buffed next patch in damage, so it will be a good choice whenever you want to mixup your fighting from stab heavy to slashes and dispose some plate armor enemies quicker than usual.

I honestly don't think that's a great idea unless the role of it being an anti-t3 weapon is emphasized as the default blade is good and versatile enough to ignore using the mordhau grip. People already don't use the mordhau grip (at least on NA) because they believe it's overpowered, and the default longsword is decent enough against everything. You run into an issue where players won't bother to use the grip if the default mode can get the job done with only 1~2 extra hits.

This also becomes really redundant as stabs using blades do the most damage. It's the reason why the greasword in mordhau is considered an Estoc atm.

Another thing is alt mode diversity, instead of 3 halfswording alt modes, theres now 2 mordhau grips, 2 halfswording grips, 2 bastard sword grips etc.

I don't think haphazardly forcing the Estoc into this role was productive or healthy for the weapon type or Mordhau's diversity. If you really wanted to diversify you could've updated one of the weapons that aren't getting much love or attention, such as the billhook. And by that "2" logic, what about warhammer/poleaxe/halberd, Baxe/Billhook/Qstaff/Eveningstar, or all the throwable weapons. Not really a great justification tbh.

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  • 22 Feb '18
 Havoc

@Grator said:
It seems to me that I might have hurt your pride m'lady, I'm sorry yet you are still wrong.

First of all theres many origins for the estoc throughtout history, and they come in many shapes aswell but two handed estocs come from longsword design variations so you could say it's an inbred longsword.
If you think an spear and an estoc is the same design filosophy well, they are obviously not. I thought you were able to distinguish between spears and swords by this point.

I meant in terms of Mordhau's own gameplay design philosophy that the spear is a thrusting weapon than can be shortened.

Estoc as a word comes from latin languages like spanish and french, it means thrust, yes, but the way you relate that to only being able to half sword it just made no sense at all. While half swording is possible, in the end it's a longsword specifically designed to be much more agile, with a longer grip wich means superior point control against the common longsword, so the halfswording is extra redundant when you already have good maneuverability with the original grip.

You forget that blades flex. Even the rigid thick blade of an extoc flexes. Half-swording gives you increased accuracy as well as more rigidity, which was crucial for the Estoc's main purpose. THRUSTING. The attack the Estoc was designed for.

On to your last point about weight balance: thats just straight up bullshit you made up to support your already weak af points, the balance in weapons like estocs is very close to the crossguard, id draw you a diagram but I think you can comprehend that if you flip the sword, the further the weight balance is, the more momentum it carries, like a mace or a warhammer.

The issue being Estocs have thick rigid blades that have a lot of the weight, and were widely used as a cavalry weapon. They're pretty much war rapiers in that respect. And they weren't designed for being used in the mordhau grip. Besides often having a thin blade, which gives your fingers and palms less surface area to grip onto, just by looking at the MORDHAU asset example shown, it's obvious the crossguard wasn't designed to be striked with.

estocleak.png

You can either hit with the pommel or with the quillons, when you say the guard it's in the way you are clearly showing your lack of understanding. As estoc guards are generally similar to any other classic longsword or greatsword.

Quillion and crossguard are interchangeable. Infact, quillion is the lesser know term.

Just because the only few manuscripts drawings that survived the time only show it done with a longsword doesn't necesarly mean the technique doesn't work on a messer or an estoc or any other sword with similar dynamics.

Because the Estoc wasn't used in a mordhau grip. There was no point, it's solution to armor was thrusting in between the gaps. That's how it was designed. You're just making an excuse to justify giving it the mordhau grip.

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  • 22 Feb '18
 Havoc

@Pred said:

@Havoc said:
So please tell me, in what situations would you use the default "long"/main mode, and the mordhau grip mode?

Maybe the same as with LS mordhau grip? Ie. when you want people to not parry your attacks.

So... pretty much never if we take the alpha as an example?

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  • 22 Feb '18
 Havoc

@crushed said:

@Havoc said:
2 . You already have weapons with the same design philosophy, for example the spear. There's so much you could have done, such as taking range, speed, and damage into account. You've already done so with other weapons. What makes this so different? You're turning the Estoc into an inbred longsword.

It's not the same. The spear covers 2 playstyles, the long mode being a support weapon and the short grip being a dueling weapon. The Estoc main mode stab already has good speed and damage, and making that even better would result in a cheesy and unfun weapon to fight against. So it goes from a stabbing weapon to a slashing weapon, just like Zweihander and Greatsword go from being slashing weapons to stabbing weapons.

That's the issue I don't understand though. By that logic, the default "long"/main mode could've been a support weapon with range, and the short grip a dueling weapon.

The argument that the default "long"/main mode "already has good speed and damage, and making that even better would result in a cheesy and unfun weapon to fight against." doesn't hold much merit because these are just values/variables you can adjust on a whim.

From what I understand, the original design goal was to make it a greatsword with weaker slashes and stronger stabs.... what happened?

Unless you're speaking mechanically, which is disproved by weapons with decent stab damage, such as the greatsword, and the spear.

So please tell me, in what situations would you use the default "long"/main mode, and the mordhau grip mode?

3234 4264
  • 22 Feb '18
 Havoc

@Lincs said:
I'd be down for spear mordhau grip tbh

So... a Q-staff?

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  • 22 Feb '18
 Havoc

@Grator said:
1.- Mordhau grip is a style of half swording.
2.- Makes very little sense gameplay wise to have two thrust focused modes one being a straight range downgrade.
3.- Looks and feels baller.
4.- Only joke here is your close minded views of medieval weapon usability in this post
5.- Delete this

Inb4 messer mordhau grip.

1 . There is a clear cut definition for both the Mordhau Grip and the Half-Sword. It scares me that you don't know this.

Augsburg_Cod.I.6.4%C2%BA.2_%28Codex_Wallerstein%29_107v

2 . You already have weapons with the same design philosophy, for example the spear. There's so much you could have done, such as taking range, speed, and damage into account. You've already done so with other weapons. What makes this so different? You're turning the Estoc into an inbred longsword.

3 . That's an opinion. It adds nothing to this discussion. I think it's silly, others may not care.

4 . Mordhau gripping an Estoc is a joke because the Estoc is a thrusting weapon, which translates to thrust in french, and was literally designed to be used in a half-sword grip, hence the messer mordhau grip joke. I haven't seen a single example of an Estoc used in a mordhau grip. That's not even taking into account that the balance is off, and many Estoc crossguards would be counterproductive for attempting a mordhau grip.

5 . You have the ability to delete this yourself, Mr. Tough guy.

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  • 22 Feb '18
 Havoc

@Lincs said:

@Havoc said:

@Lincs said:
What would you rather its alternate grip be?

It makes sense. Estoc in normal grip does excellent stab damage but piss-poor strike damage, and is better against light armor. In halfsword grip, it'd do decent strike damage and less than decent stab damage, and be better against plate.

No it doesn't, might as well ask for Messer mordhau grip at that point.

By you're own logic that means GS alt, Baxe alt etc becomes redundant.

The Estoc's method of dealing with armor is thrusting. Estoc litterally means THRUST in french. The Estoc was designed to be used in a half-sword grip.

What's wrong with just making it a greatsword with better stabs and worse slashes? Wasn't that the original design? What happened?

I think it's just a case of feature overlap. There are already two separate weapons that can halfsword, adding another to do the exact same thing would be redundant mechanically.

By that logic there are a bunch of weapons that can be thrown, and can be held up the shaft/flip the head. So that doesn't really apply, and doesn't give any logical excuse to just start pushing cubes through triangular holes.

And if ANYTHING the Estoc, the sword literally designed to be thrusted deserves the role of being able to be wielded in a halfsword more than the greatsword.

3234 4264
  • 22 Feb '18
 Havoc

@Lincs said:
What would you rather its alternate grip be?

It makes sense. Estoc in normal grip does excellent stab damage but piss-poor strike damage, and is better against light armor. In halfsword grip, it'd do decent strike damage and less than decent stab damage, and be better against plate.

No it doesn't, might as well ask for Messer mordhau grip at that point.

By you're own logic that means GS alt, Baxe alt etc becomes redundant.

The Estoc's method of dealing with armor is thrusting. Estoc litterally means THRUST in french. The Estoc was designed to be used in a half-sword grip.

What's wrong with just making it a greatsword with better stabs and worse slashes? Wasn't that the original design? What happened?

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  • 22 Feb '18
 Havoc

Mordhau grip on Estoc.

Please tell me that's just a funny joke Jax told me... you're not really planning on giving a thrusting sword designed to be half-sword against armor the mordhau grip.

@crushed
@Grator

3234 4264
  • 7 Feb '18
 Havoc

@Jax said:
Yeah those and tower shields are a little too old

PAVISE REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

3234 4264
  • 7 Feb '18
 Havoc

@EruTheTeapot said:
Inb4 someone links "Giru Giru Milked" video and gets 13 like

Sounds like a bad gay porno

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  • 7 Feb '18
 Havoc

@Sir Zombie said:
Crush has said that it isn't a glitch

Someone stop crush

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  • 7 Feb '18
 Havoc

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Still kinda want my bastard mace.

YESSS