Mordhau
 wizardish
  • Likes received 286
  • Date joined 13 Sep '17

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  • 24 Jan '19
 wizardish
  • The main discrepancy in the justification of this proposed change revolves around what a punish ought to be/what you think a punish is. Essentially what you are asking for is a guaranteed window of damage where your opponent just has to watch themselves take a hit for what I would consider to be a very very minor (and sometimes it's intentional) mistake. You can argue all you want about how the burden is then on the player that missed to dodge or do some cool movement as a way to react to this guaranteed damage window, but that isn't a practical/viable response (especially for new players). You don't seem to view forcing a cftp as punishment because it is a "slight stam disadvantage". I don't know about you, but losing 20-25 of my total stamina with just one move is a pretty hefty price to pay even more so if you're CFTPing constantly in a fight. That's fine though; the game shouldn't have stamina as the only punish because then it devolves into stamina warfare obviously. Coincidentally, however, forcing a significant stamina advantage off of a CFTP is not the only punish available to you. RB/Giru have already mentioned the punishes available to you, but you seem to dismiss these as punishes because of potential that you will be gambled. Morphing/dragging ensures that you aren't able to be gambled in scenarios like the ones you have in your video -- your opponent is parrying so incredibly early that you really should just be dragging or morphing him every time. It's no different than punishing a player who parries super early. Likewise, the potential to be gambled/read when you go to feint someone's combo windup certainly exists but that doesn't mean it isn't a feasible punish. That's like suggesting feints are ineffective because there always exists a chance that your enemy will just gamble into it. Regardless, that sort of interaction of potential gamble or them even reading your feint is good interaction, I think. This is the sort of depth RB was hinting at in his posts. In any case, as a player you always have choices/decisions to make in combat. This is no different: if you're concerned about the potential to be gambled/read, just take the stamina punish. Misses like the ones shown in the video, in my opinion, are not significant enough mistakes to warrant a guaranteed damage window. This would be especially brutal for new players who have little sense of range and constantly swing around missing. To be fair though I don't think in noob vs noob combat the noob would be punishing misses like these so the guaranteed damage window actually wouldn't be too bad. No way to be sure without watching noob gameplay/talking to noobs which leads me to the next point.
  • Similar to the feint thread that around a while ago, why are we speculating and putting out bold assumptions of what noobs are going to enjoy/feel/do? Based off of Shroud's gameplay, to me it appears that newer players don't really have any sense of punishment meaning that a guaranteed damage window or what we have now wouldn't affect a noobs intuition. Perhaps I'm wrong though, I don't really know -- I'm just going off of what I saw in Shroud's gameplay. Maybe we should ask some newer players about this supposed intuition to punish? This kind of change is derived from what you view as problematic with combat, not directly from what noobs view as problematic. You just talk about the intuition of noobs as a nice little supporting piece of 'evidence' for this change.
  • There are far-reaching implications if a change like this were to happen. I'll list them out and if you're confused I'd be more than happy to elaborate:

1 . Feels clunky
2 . Destroys a lot of important elements in teamplay
3 . CF window is already small -- you're taking away the ability to micro feint or even do a moderate feint thus leaving the player with only deep combo feints which is just taking away options/depth from the player.
4 . Happy feet would become a dominant/oppressive strategy with a guaranteed damage window like the one proposed. (1vx also probably fucked as a result)
5 . The only positive implication that I could think of would be a more grounded/methodical look to combat. Basically, players would engage more carefully and range play would have more merit. However, this would probably slow down the game considerably and discourage aggressive plays.
6 . Guaranteed damage never feels good (insiders, kick stun, etc)

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  • 12 Sep '18
 wizardish
  • The problem with this thread and feint threads in the past is the over simplification and misrepresentation of the mechanic. Feints take skill to use. If you don't know what you're doing, you'll end up dying by trying to use them. The disparity between skill to perform and skill to defend certainly exists, I don't think anyone would deny that because it is inherent for feints and will always be as a result of how the mechanic works, but it's not as severe as people commonly make it out to be (like 0-100 or something). It seems I have to again suggest that the game is a multi-variable game, it's not a reaction time simulator. Feint reading doesn't always scale with hours put into the game or your reaction time. I used to tell noobs all the time that I have 300ms reaction time on humanbenchmark and I play on 60hz (now 144hz) to inspire them. The point being that feinting isn't so one dimensional as people make it out to be.

  • This thread focuses on the new player experience from what I've gathered. In that sense, (and knowing matchmaking will exist) why don't we focus on what noob vs noob fights will look like rather than some comp guy deleting some new player? In CS it certainly doesn't feel good when someone much better than you peeks a corner and insta one taps you. Noob vs noob situations look a lot different - usually both noobs spraying at each other and missing a significant amount of shots before one of them comes out on top. Sometimes they'll get a nice headshot or a perfect spray. I imagine a similar parallel in Mordhau.

  • Furthermore, if we're talking about the new player experience, why don't we ask some newer players how they feel? This thread consists of above average players speculating on what the new player might think about feints. Ask DasShuugs what he thinks about feints. 30 hours in chiv and hundreds in Mordhau (although he was able to read a lot at only the 100-200 hour mark). He is a prime example of what a new player might experience in the absence of matchmaking: having to fight chivalry veterans with thousands of hours and having no prior experience. Admittedly he had resources and help that other players didn't get, but I think that only emphasizes the need for an expansive tutorial and variety of resources to learn the game. You could argue that he is just an outlier, but we don't really have any kind of data to confidently conclude that. It's not just Shuugs either, there are other new players like Bob in EU.

  • All feints, with the exceptions of stabs, are readable. Highlighting the strength of stabs and thus the strength of feints via stabs is useless. Stabs are the issue (in that particular context), not the feints.

  • Arguing over whether or not a new player finds swing manipulation or feints more interesting is also useless. Unless a player has played the game, they probably have a limited sense of what is actually happening and therefore both feints and drags would appear just 'normal' to them. Extremes of feints (headbobbing) or swing manipulation (spinning or spazzing out) are both likely discouraging to new players. Feints objectively look cleaner because of the general lack of camera movement (yeah it exists Frise, but it's less extreme than chiv and at least in NA there's not many people doing it because it's not really effective in any capacity).

  • Longer release weapons also favor waterfalls or z-stabs, not just simple delay drags.

  • The chat log you included in your first post in this thread is taken out of context.

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  • 12 Sep '18
 wizardish

Or just press ctrl key and never have to worry about aiming your parry again. Just like in chiv.

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  • 9 Sep '18
 wizardish

That clip is a morph, not a feint. I don't blame you though, it visually looks like a feint.

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  • 30 Jun '18
 wizardish

The screenshot has the answers.

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  • 30 Jun '18
 wizardish

Early release already does what you're describing. It's especially noticeable on stabs. It's also very noticeable when you try to put your attack into somebody and drag it away - it doesn't really work. I don't fully understand the issue you're describing either. What exactly is so problematic currently that would warrant adding more early release? Early release is already an artificial mechanic that, if done poorly (i.e, making the window too large), can make the game feel clunky.

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  • 16 May '18
 wizardish

These clips were put together fairly quickly and against players not who are not necessarily top tier (the exception being Shuugs, one of the best players). As a result, these are not the cleanest or most accurate portrayal of these mechanics. However, I do the exact same things to the best of the best -- anyone that has fought me can attest to this. Some clips are unrealistic (for example landing 3 waterfalls in a row) but the main point here is to show that waterfalls are viable and the footwork to deal with drags/insta hits. You'll notice there aren't that many chambers because what happens is the attacks miss me. They either miss or connect instantly. This is how I personally deal with the attacks that are tough to read. It's obviously not 100% consistent because that would break the game, but I can perform these maneuvers enough to what I would consider consistent.

Waterfalls are not the only way to bypass parry, there are a plethora of unique things you can do. I chose waterfalls because they are a basic and well-known move that stems all the way from early chiv days.

I have also included two bonus clips for those interested in what it looks like for stabs (the footwork for stabs is near 100% consistency):

https://clips.twitch.tv/FriendlyMistyVelociraptorRalpherZ

https://clips.twitch.tv/FantasticRichCoyoteKeepo

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  • 3 May '18
 wizardish

Standing still will allow for attacks to look strange like this.

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  • 27 Mar '18
 wizardish

I think you're missing a few things and you're going off of visuals rather than the actual parry volume. Your stab tracer connects with the volume before it even reaches their back. It's also not anywhere close to 180 relative to their camera, but yes it is visually deceptive and I can see why you would think that. You don't lead your opponents in any of the clips (leading as in forcing them to footwork or look to a certain direction in a significant way). It's very evident in each clip because your opponents are staying center relative to your weapon's position. If you try to do z-stabs or waterfalls on a stationary target who doesn't move their camera to the right or left that much you will find it nearly impossible to land any of those hits. How is that not consistent? Show some clips where these are successful hits. I would say the things you're doing in these clips consistently never hit, as it should be.

There's also no real way to make this "consistent" as you want.

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  • 26 Mar '18
 wizardish

Visually, it may be fair to say some of those should have hit. Gameplay wise I certainly wouldn’t want any of those hitting me. I’ll be the first to argue that they should not have been hits. Parries are already absurdly hard for such a basic mechanic which is so apparent in the new active parry (new AP is really nice btw). Waterfalls and z-stabs are hard to do but rewarding if you practice, as they should be. Make parry any harder and team play would be aids.

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  • 16 Feb '18
 wizardish

Why NA can't play?

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  • 14 Jan '18
 wizardish

It's not a desync.

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  • 21 Dec '17
 wizardish

@Zexis said:

@wizardish said:
I disagree with most of the stuff here.

The 15% change is very subtle and only noticeable if you actively abused chiv-drags. It took me over an hour of playing to finally notice it - and it was on the enemy's end, not mine. A lot of people are saying it's a band-aid fix or a cheesy fix or some stupid shit, it's not. If you seriously notice it or it seriously hinders your play style, you are probably playing the game in chiv-mode (which this game has striven to remove since the beginning). A lot of the people who have complained about it being inconsistent tend to be those who crutched and abused those retard drags to the fullest extent.

I call the change a band-aid because while I like what the change does to drags, it won't make sense to new or uninformed players that their swing, still in release, suddenly doesn't do damage. You'll rarely see it happen in duels depending on your play style, but that's not the point. Glancing blows need to be made more obvious visually if they're staying in because they aren't intuitive enough now IMO

You will never ever notice it unless you're specifically trying to use those types of drags. I don't think a new player is going to look 90 degrees to the left or right and just drag their mouse super hard (and if they do, they'll realize "holy shit, that's not working, I probably shouldn't try to do that"). The beauty in this change is that it targets those specific players (who use retard drags) without harming others.

I absolutely see what you're saying in regard to it potentially being confusing if a new player comes across that, but it would be so rare for that to happen to them, unless they watch a video of someone trying to do retard drags and then they themselves try to replicate it.

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  • 21 Dec '17
 wizardish

I disagree with most of the stuff here.

The 15% change is very subtle and only noticeable if you actively abused chiv-drags. It took me over an hour of playing to finally notice it - and it was on the enemy's end, not mine. A lot of people are saying it's a band-aid fix or a cheesy fix or some stupid shit, it's not. If you seriously notice it or it seriously hinders your play style, you are probably playing the game in chiv-mode (which this game has striven to remove since the beginning). A lot of the people who have complained about it being inconsistent tend to be those who crutched and abused those retard drags to the fullest extent.

I had one concern over the change: how would it effect team play, mostly target switching? I played around two hours of 2v2/3v3s tonight and it wasn't noticeable at all. Team play felt completely normal and I never had a weird moment where my swing was "connecting" during the last 15%.

I was a little bit shocked when I read about the 50ms chamber nerf in the patch notes, but I haven't really noticed that either. If anything I initially felt like chambers were easier than before. I think it's a step in the right direction because as much as I love chambers, they should require skill and shouldn't be the entire base of combat. I think the reduction in window coincides with the significant reduction of drags which is completely fair. If drags are buffed a bit, buff chambers too and vice versa.

I don't think riposte feints are an issue at all, maybe they are only because ripostes aren't chamberable. The window is incredibly tiny and therefore pretty readable. It does seem like a sort of random addition though, I agree. However, as I said, I don't really think they're that significantly powerful. They also cost a shit ton of stamina, obviously depending on what weapon you're using, but generally it ranges around 20 stamina per riposte feint. If you punish someone for attempting that (which is easy to do), they just lost a shit ton of stamina and potentially HP if you landed the hit. I must say though I have limited experience fighting them so far, only fought Stauxie (who was easy to punish) and a few others. (So with all that being said you could be completely right, my play time has been limited, but so has yours. If they are truly an issue though, I think making ripostes chamberable would easily solve the issue.)

You seem to have a negative perception of feints. This build was focused on reducing retard drags and making feints more viable. Feints weren't effective or used at all in prior builds (against good players at least). I don't think the changes are enough to make them the meta game, chambers will still be king, but at least feints are somewhat relevant now. Don't forget how readable this game is compared to chiv, even when ripostes start inside you and are super fast, it's not nearly as bad as chiv feints.

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  • 17 Dec '17
 wizardish

Memes aside, there is one really important takeaway from Mirage: being able to parry projectiles doesn't solve the problem.

I thought it was the best thing being able to parry projectiles (which were slow and very telegraphed if you were focused on the person throwing them at you). However, once you got into larger matches like 6v6 and above, it became clear that projectiles were still a massive issue, even more than chiv. I really thought that having the ability to parry projs would finally balance out ranged vs melee, but it truly didn't. In a fight where you're focusing on multiple different people at a time, who are in your face, there's no way you can keep track of the archer that's several hundred meters away sniping. Even if you could pay attention to the archer, projectiles fuck with the flow of melee combat itself. Now you have to accommodate your parrying not only to the people you're fighting, but also to the archer that's shooting at you which really limits your capability in a fight. So what's the solution? Get an archer to kill their archer. I personally think that's the dumbest shit around and that still doesn't solve the problem.

Archers need to be made extremely niche or very situational in order for them to turn out well. If they take any kind of meta role in a team play setting, the whole game just goes to shit (like it did in chiv).

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  • 25 Oct '17
 wizardish

Increased parry recovery is needed because too many players were going unpunished after someone successfully feinted them.

If you haven't relied on double parries, the change won't affect how the game feels for you.

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  • 21 Oct '17
 wizardish

SICK OF DUELING ALL THE TIME? ARE YOU BAD AT SKIRMISH OR TEAM DEATHMATCH? NEED SOMETHING NEW AND FUN TO DO IN MORDHAU? THEN COME PLAY MORDHAU DODGEBALL, THE NEXT BIG GAME MODE.

What is "mordhau dodgeball"?

Mordhau dodgeball is a community gamemode in which players fight to the death by throwing weapons at each other in a team setting. It's played in the skirmish mode on the map contraband and features 360 no scopes, slam dunks, and sheer fun. You can play with as little as four players, or upwards of 16, or really however many you can fit into a server.

How do I play?

Community member Naleaus has kindly dedicated his private server to the new dodgeball game mode. You can find this server (which is located in NA) named as "Dodgeball - Thrown Arming Swords, No Armor" (server name may be slightly varied, I will try to keep it updated).

Here is the current rules list: (subject to change, and always willing to take feedback)

-All players must have a loadout that has no armor pieces whatsoever and three arming swords.

-There is absolutely no parrying allowed at any point during rounds unless otherwise noted (view exceptions below).

-Each team must remain behind their side of the pillars at all times unless otherwise noted (view exceptions below).

-Avoid staying in the tunnels or long alley of the map, you should be in the middle 99% of the time unless otherwise noted (view exceptions below).

-Never use any kind of melee attack with the arming swords under any circumstance.

Exceptions:

-When there is one remaining player on either team, teams may then cross the pillars and venture to any point on the map. Players may also use fists and parry other fists during this time. Players may still use throwables, and are encouraged to, but don't necessarily have to in place of fists.

This rule also applies if there are less than 20 seconds remaining before the end of the round.

Misc:

This is a community driven gamemode, and as such, it's important to respect these rules so that it's fun for everyone. Admins will kick if need be, and that's really only as a last resort. Just play nice and enjoy the game.

EU people should come play - the high ping isn't too bad. Crush was able to top frag many games, so don't be deterred by the ping.

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  • 17 Oct '17
 wizardish

Sorry for the low mic audio and low video quality, 'twas just a stream.

If you can tolerate the shitty music (I blame autoplay) and quality, there's some really good stuff in there, I think.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/182820039

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  • 11 Oct '17
 wizardish

I've had this happen to me as well. It's very weird because some days I go without crashing, but on some days it's almost every death that results in a crash.

The only consistent thing I've noticed is that it usually happens on death, as you said, but it has happened once or twice where I just get hit without necessarily dying which ends up crashing my game.

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  • 8 Oct '17
 wizardish

@vanguard said:
It's disturbing how I haven't seen one fucked up drag like frisedrag, footdrags, radical stab drags and shit. The duels I have with people here in Latin America is basically who can make more fucked up drags, most attacks I don't even bother trying to chamber anymore

We play to improve, and not necessarily to win via some of the stuff you mentioned. The game is in alpha, and as such, is subject to change pretty dramatically as the devs iron out the core mechanics in preparation for beta and fine-tuning. Stab drags haven't really been an issue (for us), and are generally very readable if you put the practice in.

The only footdrags that are super difficult to chamberable are the very extreme ones that just barely hit your toes. All other drags are easily chambered in my experience, it's just a matter of timing. In the video I chamber a lot of drags but also get hit by a lot - the timing is a bit more difficult on drags just because of how I see the animations.

As for this "frisedrag" or "wessex", which was originally named as a "rainbow" (I have no clue how you guys arrived to these names), they aren't very practical or applicable to a lot of situations. Even if players started putting in the practice to consistently do it, it could potentially be tweaked.

In any case, I feel sorry for you if that's the case in Latin America. Chambers are really fun and rewarding. I hate playing like the game is in chiv mode, and I would encourage players to not play like it's chiv, as that is what the game is trying to get rid of and hopefully eventually will.

edit: I should also note that in chamber exchanges swing manipulation takes less precedent over feints/morphs. Most weapons can't really easily drag during a chamber. The fights then turn into reading and outplaying your opponent rather than trying to drag around their parry.