Mordhau
 Lionheart Chevalier
  • Likes received 737
  • Date joined 19 Aug '17
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Unflinchable riposte can be clutched pretty well but without hyper armor it's a huge risk... enough of a buff that it can give a fighting chance to someone who knows what they're doing and would've otherwise been spammed to death. But by no means does it let some one mindlessly spam attacks when fed or encourage attackers to intentionally miss instead of feed.

If hyper armor goes, we might start seeing people double parry again and alot less intentional missing.

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@PinkiePowPowMSK said:

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
They hear the grunt so feints and morphs don't work when their back is turned... they simply don't even know your feinting/morphing but they know when you attack by the grunt and 360 parry, not like they need to aim it well. They also hear your foot steps and know if you're chasing and when to 360 face stab with 1h. It really is better to let them run away.

Running away or turning away during a fight is mostly about timing and feeling. You can't 180 parry 24/7 and if someone with light armor and 1h would do that you could either follow up with quick feints because they just did a 180 parry and might panic parry or stamina drain them because they are using 1h and you have 2h.

When your riposte or attack goes and misses cause they're too far, gambling and comboing is not an option.

In this case/situation there should be a proper chase mechanic that would allow you to follow up to your opponent no matter their armor

Their 1h will win that gamble match every time. Sometimes I do combo just to catch them incase they try cftp mind game me but that's usually a free hit for them.

FTP if you combo and they turn back to "free hit" you.

Also, they may still be running away, why would your combo catch them when your first attack, which has lunge, failed? Just a waste of stamina. It really is better to let them run away. Least you can catch up on stam/health if they're sprinting away.

Yet again a proper chase mechanic would allow you to follow them and if they turnaround to "free hit" you FTP and follow up with either feint or drag. You would also have the option if you are low stam and health to let them get away.

I appreciate the time you put into replying with suggestions but I don't feel like understood my first post or my second post where I play out each of your suggestions before you even suggest them. That's ok.

There is a chase mechanic already but I've yet to find it useful when chasing someone, perhaps it does need to be improved or "made proper". Maybe more resistance at the start of a sprint to make back turn-running riskier but that may feel horrible... I just feel like sprint speed is so strong compared to weapon speed. People have literally outran my attacks by circling into my side (This is not to be confused with running into an accel and forcing it to fail... more like they run away to the opposite side of an attack and my attack fails because they were faster than my tracking/turning while horizontal swinging)... shouldn't my swing be faster than their sprint? May be a ping issue and controller has low max sensitivity but I've occasionally done this against other people too.

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@PinkiePowPowMSK said:

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Cant feint a riposte and the act of not riposting and then feinting can be easily punished by 1h gamble... they also turn around really quick when they hear the grunt and parry. I feel like there's nothing I can do about someone running away except to not follow and let combat reset... chasing always gets me surprise smaked and killed even though I totally know whats coming.

First of all if someone runaway or turn they back to you during a fight then you can easily punish it with either a combo or feint . If you cant reach and he keeps running use a feint when he turns around to parry which are all depending on what they do. and the way that u can gamble or punish into these feints is something that could be "fixed or balanced" by making feints faster

They hear the grunt so feints and morphs don't work when their back is turned... they simply don't even know your feinting/morphing but they know when you attack by the grunt and 360 parry, not like they need to aim it well. They also hear your foot steps and know if you're chasing and when to 360 face stab with 1h. It really is better to let them run away.

When your riposte or attack goes and misses cause they're too far, gambling and comboing is not an option. Their 1h will win that gamble match every time. Sometimes I do combo just to catch them incase they try cftp mind game me but that's usually a free hit for them. Also, they may still be running away, why would your combo catch them when your first attack, which has lunge, failed? Just a waste of stamina. It really is better to let them run away. Least you can catch up on stam/health if they're sprinting away.

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Cant feint a riposte and the act of not riposting and then feinting can be easily punished by 1h gamble... they also turn around really quick when they hear the grunt and parry. I feel like there's nothing I can do about someone running away except to not follow and let combat reset... chasing always gets me surprise smaked and killed even though I totally know whats coming.

I never feel outsmarted

I like Cswics/Mittsies and other's previous ideas of giving jumping,cimbing etc speed/stamina buffs to light armor. The jump kick was removed for a reason and vertical wall running has to be a joke but otherwise I'm a fan.

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Horses are pretty unstoppable when paired with crouched weapons and half a brain. However, horses are pretty awkward to use for anything but spearing people with their backs turned. Trying to get around small dips in the map terrain, timing a jump over some small raised ground/fence or rock, and getting around small obstacles without getting stuck on them or walls. If you get caught in a corner, you're not really stuck by the enemies around you so much as by the awkwardness of maneuvering a horse. Sometimes I'll turn a horse meaning to turn a few degrees but turn a full 180 and still be stuck or something weird.

What if, in time, devs developed an AI for horses? Allowing horses to attempt jumping over short objects when sprinting directly into short objects. You can make a specific animation for jumping fences, similar to how players climb things... like approacing the feince and pressing jump activates it. What if this same AI gave horses the ability to sidestep thin obstacles... such as a fence post or gate, etc.

Horses also get butchered like retards when riderless, what if they tried running away from combat when attacked while riderless, adding to the chaos/unpredictabilty of melee. I'm not sure what can be done about the awkwardness when getting a horse near a wall but I'm sure there's a way to make riding a horse feel better, more accurate when turning and less clunky.

Maybe some of these ideas are not feasible or take away from balance somehow... but something to make horses feel alive would be nice. Currently they're mindless drones that run into walls, never turn how you want them to and sit idle while getting spam stabbed.

I hear horses are getting health regeneration removed and this is very welcome news... No more invincible crouched spear circuits around the map. But what if we got Benchmarked regeneration for horses? Lets say it's set to every 25 HP. What I mean is that a horse regenerates only up to the next benchmark, so a horse done 10 damage will regenerate to 100 HP but if if it takes 30 dmg it will only regen up to 75 hp. The next benchmark is 50 and then 25 etc. If that's too much 50 can be set to the max regen or something. So a horse keeps losing health and never regenerates until it's below 50 health and only regens up to 50 max health. I'm just worried naked horse will be useless for anything but archers and horse stealing will simply be good only for putting it in your spawn and denying the other team a horse.

Also, can we get maxed crouch time for a weapon to be like 5 seconds or something?

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Warhammer is prolly my favorite 1h... If you don't head shot with it though, you're way better off grabbing AS. Wish we had a 2h polehammer/lucerne based off the same premise.

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@Bodkin said:
Decided to try out Recurve and honestly it felt like "Pimp Your Archer" compared to Longbow because of the points left over. Fun weapon too.

EvolvedCancer.png

recurve1.PNG

recurve2.PNG

Thanks to @BobSapp for helping me with the demo mode!

Also on a side note, Warhammer gore is great thanks devs

warhammergore1.jpg

You were terrifying with the warhammer.

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@SherbershLemel said:
one thing i love about mordhaus shields is that they move up and down depending where you look, a cool extension of that would be to let it cover the head more if you look up enough. this would be useful for when youre going upstairs or through a archway and u got archers perched up looking down you waiting to get easy headshot

Shields already do this :)

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@TombstoneJack said:
we ABSOLUTELY need women in mordhau if I cant be a lady in a long flowing pretty pretty multicolored princess dress maul in hand while standing on a siege tower being pushed towards the castle screaming at the top of my lungs WHERE PATCHIE then then game will flop before its first hotfix

Don't forget to add Double KO

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You talk about tickling noses but use a slow motion sword. I have previously argued for parries to work on attacks in attack windups that are inside of people, so tickled noses are not relevant in my idea of balance. You reiterate my point about back swings as if I hadn't said it first then ignore the fact that, in my previous explanation of a perfect world parry system, it wouldn't matter what an attack starts out as since you can move your infinite parry as you read an attack or as an attack changes... be it accel-> waterfall or reverse-> spin drag or leg hit->morphed face stab... no more "split time line" dimensions of accel vs decel mind games... You tell me I need to explain my idea of talent/skill when that has been explained in many of my previous posts which you were quoting at the beginning.

I already know what your retort to this post will be. If you surprise me with some point that is new and hasn't been addressed then I'll reply, otherwise I'll let my posts answer you for themselves instead of writing new essays and diluting this thread. Hopefully this thread will lose relevance when the next update comes and the devs have hopefully delivered more freedom, but that remains to be seen.

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@rob_owner said:
man, lionheart, i dont think you like the game but you want to try to change a fundamental part of it to make it how you like it. This aint mirage, theres no magic, i've seen you throw that wizardly word around a few times already now.

This is subjective but timing parry is better, if you want to experience similar melee combat in a different game but with held block, go play Dark Messiah. It is fun. A different game, first person ONLY, and actually has combat mechanics compared to something like Elder Scrolls. The only thing I can think of for you would be to use my shield idea on all the weapons, so you can both parry and block with them so theres a parry window and if you hold past it then instead of parry recovery you enter block state, and if you attack someone's block then you clash off it and can keep hitting their block until they drop it, and attempt a parry again so they can perform a riposte, im not sure if you correctly understand what im describing or if i described it correctly. You would not want to block someone in a teamfight for risk of them using the speed of a clash's combo to target switch into your teammate, dragging would only happen if you want to force a clash in a teamfight, yaknow a lot would be different. Parrying gives you initiative window, blocking doesnt.

And I really wouldnt recommend you keep begging for combat closer to "catching the olive on the toothpick" as a description for parries, if the combat is too dependent on the direction you have to block in, it falls apart. You dont have to believe me, it can be tested with mods in the future and you can have fun never blocking or parrying a living soul if they dont want you to (especially in a teamfight) ever again no matter how many pounds of sweat you put on the line. i'd also recommend not throwing around that flights looking like flights quote, it means nearly nothing, the overuse of that and the word "intuitive" just makes them all sound like hollow buzzwords and phrases that make me guess what you mean when you say them. I dont think this game will ever not have timed parry, you need to learn to love that or wait for mods I guess.

Parry is already gonna be easier to bypass on the sides, if the turncap isnt really lax then it will probably be quite grotesque to parry in a teamfight in most cases, but we'll have to wait and see

I respect your opinion but will continue to see things differently. Parry failing in Dev Blog 2 for being too low was why I decided to risk 250$ on an alpha key that could've totally been a scam.(Not to mention, Mordhau was the main reason I bought myself a new computer.) I think a timed parry with the magical parry recovery window encourages everything we hated in Chivalry, such as drags, spin drags and reverses, etc. Food for thought, would reverses have been so bad if parry wasn't timed? Sure, they would've been ugly and unrealistic but would they have been game breaking, blocking one would be as simple as back stepping and parrying opposite from it's start. Would insider hits feel so bad if you could just hold your block up the whole time? Morphing/feinting would require thought to perform instead of being free hit buttons or mindless skill checks on your opponent. I don't feel outsmarted because someone started an attack inside me then back stepped, turned sideways and looked up to make it float in after my parry. That didn't take skill, it took a few hours of rehearsal and a few more to track against footwork.

I could play Chivalry on an EU server and have a good fucking time. No cheese, I never used back tracers or delay drags, just side hits, matrixes and footwork using longsword.. totally shunned messer, brandistock, and norse/claymore/sow. I could take Chivalry's worst drags/reverses and feints and have a good time. In Mordhau I play on a central server with 90 ping and have a horrible fucking time and lookdown morphs/drags/accels are the only meta and I feel gross even using these. Messer is still disgusting, like a copy/paste from Chivalry, though now it at least has less range. Was glad to hear there would be no norse/sow but gee, they added rapier and estoc which are identical in principle. Firebombs, lance horses, shields... I'm actually gonna stop there, you know what I'm getting at.

No, I do not like this game and really wish it addressed Chivalry's core issues instead of just fixing net code and maintaining the same un-intuitive Accel/Decel Meta, now with the lack of freedom.

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@fmay2123 said:
How about decrease the backpedal speed more while the shield is up to make it even easier to kick them?

This continues to encourage a passive playstyle based on back pedaling... now they have to sprint sideways or turn they're back to run. We need to stop trying to make the shield a trap and instead make it a tool for fighting with just like normal parry. It's like you people want to automatically win against a shield user because all shield users are just bad and deserve to be kicked/spammed to death regardless of their skill level or yours.

I believe accurate parry angles will make fighting and beating a shield intuitive while still giving beginners an extra few seconds of life AND also giving Pros a tool that is only as good as they're own skill. I like shields (used to, currently shield disgusts me) because I have high ping and find blocking where an attack is going much more intuitive than blocking when like with normal parry. Should be a matter of choice like it was in Patch14 where shields didn't give you a free victory, you still had to read attacks. Just like the attacker had to hit around the shield instead of mindless riposte stamina warfare and feint kicking... defeats the purpose of a shield when feint-to kick ends the duel as it currently does.

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I like Mittsies/Lemels ideas for passive benefits. Faster ladder climb, faster structure climbing, quick horse dismounting, quicker getting up when ragdolled and less fall damage. These are intuitive.

Horses are pretty powerful and remind me of the powerup given by, say, Ghosts in Halo, etc. But they feel more like a trap as well, very good but only for drive bys. Would be interesting to get a "jumping off' animation when galloping, especially for lighter classes who may not have a massive weapon to swing from horse back or crouch with.

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A locational, instead of timing based parry with an arbitrary magical parry recovery time would certainly ease such "exploits" as slow motion swords, head banging, hidden underhands and pressing Morph/feint button to get a free hit. But I guess they can't be called exploits if the game encourages these tactics.

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I was tempted to add a snippet about avoiding discussion of things totally unfeasible such as "removing held block" for all shields, stamina cost for longer shield raises, sweet spots and entirely new mechanics that cannot be added into the game this late and Devs have specifically said are not feasible anyways... but I thought that would be unnecessary for obvious reasons.

Was hoping to leave behind such clutter in the previous threads. Also Point 2 discusses use of shields of different situations, obviously buckler/targe would be best for dueling but would fall short in 1vX... It's also been rumored Buckler is going to have parry as opposed to held block... Which is feasible since held block is very important against archery and buckler would be useless against archers anyways. Kite would hold door ways well, viking/heater would be the middle ground for dueling, team play and smaller shields would be for duels or added survival of archers, etc.

The other ideas don't deserve to be mentioned. The only things left to discuss are parry size, stamina cost, kick stun, shield raise/lower delays, turncap and other statistics already in the game...

Either like my post or post why you think it's bad idea and what statistics should be changed instead... or why you think shields should stay exactly where they are. Or just ignore altogether, it's not like you use shield. Just please don't pollute with ideas already declared unfeasible by the devs.

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Shields in their current state rely too much on arbitrary stamina nerfs to balance them and these arbitrary nerfs force users to adopt a very passive playstyle that can drag duels out until someone literally decides they're gonna risk a gamble.

This is exacerbated by the fact that shields, by nature, only pair with low range 1handers and any armor worn shortens lunge/drag length... also 1 handers require stamina to morph/feint with and are easy to matrix and force misses against.... and Stamina on hit doesn't give enough stamina to pay off these deficits... and you better not even bother trying to chamber. Shields are also incredibly weak to feint-to-kick and the only counter is constant back stepping even with initiative. A single kick means the fight is pretty much over for the shield user. Personally a kick also gives my opponent a free hit since I have high ping (the whole reason I use a shield anwyays) and can't get a shield up in time despite the most obvious follow up.

On the other hand shield is absolutely invincible. You cannot drag around it without doing something absolutely absurd.. meaning you have to resort to stamina warefare... baiting misses, kicking and hard reading. Whatever you do don't chamber against a shield.

Shields add an artificial skill ceiling similar to feints. Average players and below can do absolutely nothing to a shield user while even a mediocre one is free to feint /morph to victory against better players. Meanwhile, in an advanced duel yard, a good player can take a shield up against equally skilled players or even less skilled players and it will be useless if the lesser player reads at least a few feints/morphs and it's game over for the shield if he gets kicked... Remember a shield user's 1h morph/feints are difficult to read but are predicted by the simple fact that he didn't riposte. The no-delay on hitting shield makes it brainless easy to pressure a shield user into spamming ripostes.

Shields aren't even very good in 1vX since they come down on hit and get kicked into corners as if it were patch 13 or something.

SOLUTION:

  1. Bring skill back into using shield. Make shield parry box accurate to shield model once again.
    -A beginner can learn the basics of defense by having to be accurate and it will still extend his life slightly when fighting and an expert can take it to the duelyard just as well... a shield is only as good as the user and is about his/her personal ability to read attacks as opposed to mitigating fake,arbitrary and artificial mechanics such as kick stun on shield or extra stamina taxes.
    -This also makes fighting and beating shield much more consistent and more intuitive than spamming until hes out of stamina or kicking him to magically paralyze him. You need skill to beat a shield just as you need skill to use a shield. The attacker has to hit around the shield and mask his attacks, play mind games etc to do so. Just like in parry vs parry but now location is the deciding factor instead of timing.
  2. Add stamina negation to shields again, based on shield size. Bigger shields = more stamina negation but at the cost of points.
    -Stamina on hit isn't high enough to justify shield's extra costs when you factor in the stamina cost of morphs, feints, chambers, misses, parries and feint-to-parries. It's just not feasible when you're playing against good players who read and can simply spam their way to victory against a shield's current stamina weakness. Shields realistically give you a stamina edge that would slightly even out against 2h (but still leave you at the disadvantage just like before, when they were high.)
    -Cheaper shields stam out easier and heavier shields become more useful for soaking up hits in teamplay or holding objectives but cost more points and thus get smaller 1handers, less perks and or less armor.
  3. Remove raise/lower delay.
    -C'mon this just makes it feel like you have a brick tied to your every movement instead of a multipurpose military tool meant to increase your survival odds and fight more opponents.
  4. Make it so shields stay up even when you've been hit like before.
    -This is so the shield stays up when fighting multiple opponents and doesn't get you simultaneously hit by 3 weapons because a smaller weapon side stabbed your now smaller parry box.

I want to see shields done properly on release, requiring skill to use and skill to defeat.. None of this arbitrary, fake stuff we've seen lately. Stamina warefare with an invincible wall has been a failure, the kicking to death meta was a failure. If kick stun sucked in general melee why would it be any better fighting shield users? In Chivalry, we saw how kick stun only separated day 1 players from pros, where noobs got kick raped and pros would never get kicked and would even bait kicks for a free hit of their own, we can do so much better. Patch 14 was the most balanced and intuitive shields ever were and I want to see us go back to those intuitive balances.

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Appreciate your video alot and I found it informative. Sound's like Longbow needs projectile speed nerfed and perhaps the other projectile weapons to match. I definitely agree that throwing axes do way too much damage, especially to T3.

The problems with archery aren't in what armor they bring... @Bodkin. Making T3 discouraged on archery is already in the game anyways and is carried out by point costs associated with shortbow/xbow, side arm and the cost of armor plus a T3 piece. Any long bow archer featuring T3 is a joke unless that left over point is spent on cleaver.

"Archers" like myself (if you can even call me an archer) that mainly melee with AS but open with a xbow quarrel and don't bother to reload are not the cancer. Dedicated archers raining Longbow shots all over and then run away from combat or pull out a cleaver to yeet all over multiple wounded knights are the cancer.

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@TheKingInTheNorth said:
Hyper armour is extremely unintuitive, I preferred active parry because that at least makes sense intuitively. 1vX is supposed to be hard, artificially making it easier is not a solution in the first place imho.

I have to disagree that active parry was intuitive... Too many of my back stabs bounced off and in some ways it felt like getting traded except my attack did 0 damage and there's did full. But yes Hyperarmor is almost as bad for the exact same reasons: Successful back stabs/flanks from safety are not rewarded and it gives the 1 in 1vX an artificial powerup.

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Anal Error to replace Jax 2019

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Would love to see it go as well or at least be drastically reduced down to 60% damage taken. 11pt Longsword stabs from safety are annoying. When I invest in a halberd build and hit people from out of reach I want to do my full damage.

Hyperarmor is NOT necessary to make lighter classes viable... light armored classes get big weapons or big perks and have to use these along with skill to win at 1vX. Tired of seeing Halberd/Zwei builds smash at 1vX because oh Hyper armor Trades rather than footwork and talent.

I dont even bother double parrying and its sloppy of me but it's so viable to mindlessly spam in 1vX as long as they keep feeding me.