@Bang said:
You could test a 600ms flat attack lockout instead of band-aid 1vX solutions. That "clunky" feeling is just bullshit - no one ever said chivalry felt clunky because of attack lockout, and how would you know anyways since we actually never testing it? The only thing I can foresee bringing Mordhau up to par with competitive chivalry teammodes is mod support atm since the devs won't actually test anything.
Several people have said chiv felt clunky because of attack lockout. People mention clunkiness and brokenness everytime chiv comes up in a topic.
Chiv itself is just a janky, clunky, broken mess.
Number 1 thing @marox devs can do to help with 1vx without destroying the excellent teamfighting the mechanics have for us so far is addressing how chambers function in general or in that scenario. The issue is chamber, not parry lockout.
Being able to chamber the 1 in 1vx is what allows people to just spam it and circle strafe and there is pretty much nothing you can do about it even if you are reading everything and in general are way better than the x.
If two people on a similar skill level than you are destroying you in 2v1, I don't think the game is broken. I think that is actually good for teamfights and healthy for the game. But when two people way below your skilllevel can just fuck u up cus they spam chamber and there really isn't anything you can do about it period, I think that sucks and takes away from the core philosophy of the game. It being unforgiving and taking skill.
Well, if you increase the parry lockout you can't chamber as often in those situations. The issue isn't chambering itself, it's the ability to chamber ripostes, which makes 1vX shit since you're constantly getting attacked. I'm not suggesting 1vX should be easy, but there should be much more potential for 1vX, since that's where the greatest skillgap typically lies in games of this sort.
You could test a 600ms flat attack lockout instead of band-aid 1vX solutions. That "clunky" feeling is just bullshit - no one ever said chivalry felt clunky because of attack lockout, and how would you know anyways since we actually never testing it? The only thing I can foresee bringing Mordhau up to par with competitive chivalry teammodes is mod support atm since the devs won't actually test anything.
3rd person is just exposing underlying problems with the game. Removing 3rd doesn't fix the legibility of instants, drags, ect -it's just a bandaid solution.
To be honest, there's nothing inhibiting you from doing that in 1st - it's just significantly easier in 3rd. I don't think limiting fov and 3p is the best route to preventing "ballerina" stuff, though it might work in the short term. I'd rather the devs increase the fov a bit and bring it back a tad so first doesn't feel so claustrophobic - so there's more innate advantage to first, like there was in chiv.
@ÐMontyleGueux said:
How will a bigger parry lockout buff 1vX ?
When you parry your opponent, they'll have to wait a bit longer before they can attack you again. It allows you to parry two/three attacks and retaliate rather than get perpetually flinched/spammed to death.
The only reason parry lockout is as short as it is, is because you needed to be able to chamber ripostes, since ripostes were once feintable. But ripostes are no longer feintable and we still have this remnant parry lockout. The reason chiv 1vX worked without hyper armor was because of the longer parry parry lockout, and the increased time to retaliate.
Lol, people are still ostracizing those who don't like they game.
If you drew a venn diagram between chivalry veterans and people who dislike Mordhau, you would see a surprising overlap. There's some merit within those who are dissatisfied with the game. Some find Chivalry more simple, brutish, and fun.
@Bang said:
How do you imagine players will cause one another to mess up their chamber input or timing?
ideally through drags and morphs over jank-ass anims
Turncap during windup/release phases, amount you can contort your body, how close you can get to someone, fast accelerations, and drags are all additional factors outside of animation. Would it currently be more effective to back and forth chamber fight someone for 10 seconds or to baboon someone in 3 seconds - especially in a teamfight scenario?
@Zexis said:
One point I think Bang is trying to make is:
Being able to windup after being immediately parried provides both players less time to move around. Timing is negated because you can just windup attacks whilst your opponent ripostes
Bang, please correct me if I'm misinterpreting you. I think he is saying: because the design philosophy dictates all ripostes should be chamberable, the lockout window cannot be too big. Because the lockout window cannot be too big, you can always be attacked quickly again after parrying someone. Because you can be attacked quickly, it is harder to disengage and target switch in team fights like you could in Chiv.
I'm not going to try to defend or counter that point now, just present it.
Yes, that's a fair summary. Feints are negated by chambering, so fights are "suppose" to end when someone messes up a chamber input or a chamber timing. How do you imagine players will cause one another to mess up their chamber input or timing?
Windup times are surprisingly important in a game with first hit flinch and no hit trades.
You should be able to confidently fhf an alt grip poleaxe, battleaxe or eveningstar with say a longsword, assuming you just jousted at each other with stabs. It was a subtle way of balancing weapons because you had to respect the fhf potential. Now it's inconsistent - might be due to how that particular stab animation juts out, small windup differential, or a combination.
Is this specific to light loadouts? Cause they already slowed them a tad. I honestly don't know what you want. Do you want faster heavy armor? More speed in general? I can't tell.
The plan was to make certain weapons loadout centric to bind them (e.g. zwei/halberd light armor, greatsword/billhook medium, ect.). You can't have the movement in these loadouts be too liberal otherwise it negates the intention of balancing via loadout.
Again, making your playstyle one of breaking animations and doing stupid shit, has nothing to do with chambering. Guess what? It'll be possible regardless of chambers! Please tell me what chambering has to do with it?
Chambering inadvertently creates a caveman meta in order to counter it. I mentioned this before...
And you're afraid that new players will criticize Mordhau like they did Chivalry, while wanting the game to be more like Chivalry. Please stop contradicting yourself.
Yes, I mentioned that they should add reverse overheads and one frame animations.
Please stop using other comp players as reasoning, as there are still plenty of clans and non comp players who enjoy the game or see it's potential. Leaving without providing any feedback that I've seen doesn't help the game at all, so them leaving the alpha doesn't really matter. So please stop jerking off to what other players did and focus on the points at hand. And if you speak for them, sorry, but you're not doing that great a job.
I address pretty much every point you mentioned just not in a direct reply to you. Windup times cannot be heavily adjusted without buffing feints, feint to parry, active parry and the chamber window. Me going bastard sword and playing like an autist shouldn't be as effective as it was vs me trying to fight you "honestly". If I'm not mistaken, lighter loadouts are suppose to be more of a nerf to vanguard/heavy weapons than they are to be an enabler of footwork. If they enable footwork too much then they defeat the purpose and the vanguard/heavy meta will still remain.
If i'm mistaken above please let me know. And if you could, watch the videos above and see the differences in movement.
Why don't you increase parry lockout by a flat 100/200ms, disallowing some of the "op" weapons such as heavy and vanguard the ability to chamber chambers/ripostes? It would provide shorter weapons more of niche in teamfighting without having to resort to a loadout system (which tbh isn't the best way to nerf vg/heavy weapons while simultaneously trying to promote light loadout footwork. ) I also believe raising the sprint acceleration in general would open up more footwork and bounciness like I linked above. Perhaps just make lighter loadouts just movespeed focused.
The fact that people time and time again mention how you play signifies the lack of respect for you because you're playing the game a lot differently than some people
Who I am or how I play is an ad hominem and is beside the point. Arguments should stand on their own and be independent of arguer. Furthermore, I'm even mentioning the problem with cavemanning which is my own playstyle. I wouldn't shoot myself in the foot if this was an egocentric post.
There's a lot of individuals who are dissatisfied with Mordhau, a lot of ex-chivalry players, and I genuinely don't understand why no one cares about them. All of the dissatisfied people left quietly while everyone who loves the game sticks around, especially here. I fear that noobs fresh to slasher games will criticize Mordhau the same way in which Chivalry was criticized, namely around drags, exploits, and gambling.
As I take it, you haven't really been able to consistently chamber or use a lot of these new mechanics to the fullest extent.
I can actually. I have to play really passive though, which to me, isn't as fun, but most importantly, isn't how teamfighting will go down. You should know that it's chaotic and fast-paced and the chiv vet within me see's more merit in practicing how to kill quickly than to be patient. The killtimes 1v1 vs teamfighting is a lot more polarizing in Mordhau than it is in Chivalry if that's any indication.
Furthermore, in those facehug situations, could you not agree that chambering becomes more risky? That perhaps it might be better to use your longer parry window to more consistently get a riposte than to risk a chamber when you can get accelled/decelled/cavemanned.
You still haven't given any actual reasons why the former two are "neutered" without chambers,
I have, several times. Being able to windup after being immediately parried provides both players less time to move around. Timing is negated because you can just windup attacks whilst your opponent ripostes and if you fuck up the "chamber" or if your stab won't land first, you can just feint to parry out. This isn't much of a problem with the current stam system and especially not in teamfights. Wiff punishing is really difficult in Mordhau due to the ability to cftp out before you can footwork and counterattack.
You remember in chivalry how you could parry, wait a split second, and then immediately attack and flinch your opponent? That actually added whole timing dynamic and an additional way to mindgame/punish people who just immediately attack after they see you don't riposte. Now you can consistently gamble and ftp out if need be. As to footwork, I genuinely thought that was self evident, but I'll do a quick youtube search to prove my point, picking the first mordhau/chivalry 3v3 videos I find.
I love how you guys glaze over my post while voraciously jerking off to Boner's.
Your definition of cavemanning according to playing with you last night
Was answered here:
I'm referring to playing as retarded and weapon manipulative as possible in order to prevent/punish chambering
Developer headache is part of the alpha experience. Asking them to redo the entire combat system to exclude chambering would be more of one.
I never said chambering should be removed and it still could provide some counter to feints since you can't riposte a feint. The footwork is not in a good spot and it's so easily evidenced by watching people fight. Just look at their feet. Light armor isn't going to alleviate the issue without over-buffing the vanguard weapons which its suppose to nerf.
The game is janky without chambering because the mechanics are centered around it. I'm only suggesting the combat should be fluid and solid independent of feints, morphs, chambers and all other "skillgap" enhancing techniques. The game at its core should be timing, movement and hitbox porn. And the former two are neutered due to the incessant need to chamber everything with everything during everything.
But whatever, I'm done. I've earnestly tried vocalizing my concerns and the concerns of others but I'm just pissing in the wind at this point.
13 Apr
BangWell, if you increase the parry lockout you can't chamber as often in those situations. The issue isn't chambering itself, it's the ability to chamber ripostes, which makes 1vX shit since you're constantly getting attacked. I'm not suggesting 1vX should be easy, but there should be much more potential for 1vX, since that's where the greatest skillgap typically lies in games of this sort.
11 Apr
BangYou could test a 600ms flat attack lockout instead of band-aid 1vX solutions. That "clunky" feeling is just bullshit - no one ever said chivalry felt clunky because of attack lockout, and how would you know anyways since we actually never testing it? The only thing I can foresee bringing Mordhau up to par with competitive chivalry teammodes is mod support atm since the devs won't actually test anything.
3 Apr
Bangrip chivhau
3 Apr
Bang3rd person is just exposing underlying problems with the game. Removing 3rd doesn't fix the legibility of instants, drags, ect -it's just a bandaid solution.
- 1
3 Apr
BangTo be honest, there's nothing inhibiting you from doing that in 1st - it's just significantly easier in 3rd. I don't think limiting fov and 3p is the best route to preventing "ballerina" stuff, though it might work in the short term. I'd rather the devs increase the fov a bit and bring it back a tad so first doesn't feel so claustrophobic - so there's more innate advantage to first, like there was in chiv.
- 3
15 Sep '18
BangWhen you parry your opponent, they'll have to wait a bit longer before they can attack you again. It allows you to parry two/three attacks and retaliate rather than get perpetually flinched/spammed to death.
The only reason parry lockout is as short as it is, is because you needed to be able to chamber ripostes, since ripostes were once feintable. But ripostes are no longer feintable and we still have this remnant parry lockout. The reason chiv 1vX worked without hyper armor was because of the longer parry parry lockout, and the increased time to retaliate.
- 3
13 Sep '18
Bang- 2
8 Sep '18
BangLol, people are still ostracizing those who don't like they game.
If you drew a venn diagram between chivalry veterans and people who dislike Mordhau, you would see a surprising overlap. There's some merit within those who are dissatisfied with the game. Some find Chivalry more simple, brutish, and fun.
2 Nov '17
BangAll I need is a dark forest to last me a few years.
2 Nov '17
BangThey should add voice commands.
- 2
2 Nov '17
BangWhy don't we keep it simple?
W,A,S,D, Shift, Space, Ctrl are all inputs too - we could put more emphasis on those.
Not everything implemented needs to siphon left hand movement into right.
31 Oct '17
BangTurncap during windup/release phases, amount you can contort your body, how close you can get to someone, fast accelerations, and drags are all additional factors outside of animation. Would it currently be more effective to back and forth chamber fight someone for 10 seconds or to baboon someone in 3 seconds - especially in a teamfight scenario?
31 Oct '17
BangYes, that's a fair summary. Feints are negated by chambering, so fights are "suppose" to end when someone messes up a chamber input or a chamber timing. How do you imagine players will cause one another to mess up their chamber input or timing?
31 Oct '17
BangIt doesn't, I'll admit I was wrong if I suggested so. Windup could work as a balancing tool if it operates independently of active parry and feints.
Turncap, release window length, body contortions and facehugging are all a factor too.
Balance independent of loadouts.
It has to do with timing which is what crush mentioned
31 Oct '17
BangChambering is easier if I backpedal and keep space. You're clearly just an asshole pal.
- 1
31 Oct '17
BangWindup times are surprisingly important in a game with first hit flinch and no hit trades.
You should be able to confidently fhf an alt grip poleaxe, battleaxe or eveningstar with say a longsword, assuming you just jousted at each other with stabs. It was a subtle way of balancing weapons because you had to respect the fhf potential. Now it's inconsistent - might be due to how that particular stab animation juts out, small windup differential, or a combination.
The plan was to make certain weapons loadout centric to bind them (e.g. zwei/halberd light armor, greatsword/billhook medium, ect.). You can't have the movement in these loadouts be too liberal otherwise it negates the intention of balancing via loadout.
Chambering inadvertently creates a caveman meta in order to counter it. I mentioned this before...
Yes, I mentioned that they should add reverse overheads and one frame animations.
I should probably just give up then.
- 1
31 Oct '17
Bang@Naleaus
I address pretty much every point you mentioned just not in a direct reply to you. Windup times cannot be heavily adjusted without buffing feints, feint to parry, active parry and the chamber window. Me going bastard sword and playing like an autist shouldn't be as effective as it was vs me trying to fight you "honestly". If I'm not mistaken, lighter loadouts are suppose to be more of a nerf to vanguard/heavy weapons than they are to be an enabler of footwork. If they enable footwork too much then they defeat the purpose and the vanguard/heavy meta will still remain.
If i'm mistaken above please let me know. And if you could, watch the videos above and see the differences in movement.
- 1
31 Oct '17
Bang@Crush
Why don't you increase parry lockout by a flat 100/200ms, disallowing some of the "op" weapons such as heavy and vanguard the ability to chamber chambers/ripostes? It would provide shorter weapons more of niche in teamfighting without having to resort to a loadout system (which tbh isn't the best way to nerf vg/heavy weapons while simultaneously trying to promote light loadout footwork. ) I also believe raising the sprint acceleration in general would open up more footwork and bounciness like I linked above. Perhaps just make lighter loadouts just movespeed focused.
- 3
31 Oct '17
BangWho I am or how I play is an ad hominem and is beside the point. Arguments should stand on their own and be independent of arguer. Furthermore, I'm even mentioning the problem with cavemanning which is my own playstyle. I wouldn't shoot myself in the foot if this was an egocentric post.
There's a lot of individuals who are dissatisfied with Mordhau, a lot of ex-chivalry players, and I genuinely don't understand why no one cares about them. All of the dissatisfied people left quietly while everyone who loves the game sticks around, especially here. I fear that noobs fresh to slasher games will criticize Mordhau the same way in which Chivalry was criticized, namely around drags, exploits, and gambling.
I can actually. I have to play really passive though, which to me, isn't as fun, but most importantly, isn't how teamfighting will go down. You should know that it's chaotic and fast-paced and the chiv vet within me see's more merit in practicing how to kill quickly than to be patient. The killtimes 1v1 vs teamfighting is a lot more polarizing in Mordhau than it is in Chivalry if that's any indication.
Furthermore, in those facehug situations, could you not agree that chambering becomes more risky? That perhaps it might be better to use your longer parry window to more consistently get a riposte than to risk a chamber when you can get accelled/decelled/cavemanned.
I have, several times. Being able to windup after being immediately parried provides both players less time to move around. Timing is negated because you can just windup attacks whilst your opponent ripostes and if you fuck up the "chamber" or if your stab won't land first, you can just feint to parry out. This isn't much of a problem with the current stam system and especially not in teamfights. Wiff punishing is really difficult in Mordhau due to the ability to cftp out before you can footwork and counterattack.
You remember in chivalry how you could parry, wait a split second, and then immediately attack and flinch your opponent? That actually added whole timing dynamic and an additional way to mindgame/punish people who just immediately attack after they see you don't riposte. Now you can consistently gamble and ftp out if need be. As to footwork, I genuinely thought that was self evident, but I'll do a quick youtube search to prove my point, picking the first mordhau/chivalry 3v3 videos I find.
Watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqek6wq8x70
Now watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w3rCImL_rU
Chivalry was a lot more movement based and sprint heavy.
31 Oct '17
BangI love how you guys glaze over my post while voraciously jerking off to Boner's.
Was answered here:
I never said chambering should be removed and it still could provide some counter to feints since you can't riposte a feint. The footwork is not in a good spot and it's so easily evidenced by watching people fight. Just look at their feet. Light armor isn't going to alleviate the issue without over-buffing the vanguard weapons which its suppose to nerf.
The game is janky without chambering because the mechanics are centered around it. I'm only suggesting the combat should be fluid and solid independent of feints, morphs, chambers and all other "skillgap" enhancing techniques. The game at its core should be timing, movement and hitbox porn. And the former two are neutered due to the incessant need to chamber everything with everything during everything.
But whatever, I'm done. I've earnestly tried vocalizing my concerns and the concerns of others but I'm just pissing in the wind at this point.