Mordhau
 Cswic
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  • Date joined 26 Jan '16
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160 572
 Cswic

Obvious shit stir detected.

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  • 1
  • 22 Sep
 Cswic

^ Huntsman only affecting headshots like you mentioned is another decent idea. The perk cost could also be lowered to 1 point if need be to compensate for the nerf.

160 572
 Cswic

It is not about me not wanting to be 1 shot on naked legs,
if I want that I roll light leg. It is about the fact that 1 shotting naked legs feels retarded, as does 1 shot throwing axe to medium chest, and 1 throwing knife to light chest. Such things should not exist.

The Archer duel dynamic of making them concentrate on you while avoiding shots and going for melee etc would exist regardless of huntsman existing.

Regardless of huntsman existing archers are still the main threat. You have the same options to deal with them that you described. How would removing huntsman shatter that typical scenario? Or did I misread something?

Another alternative worth considering is just making huntsman baseline for all bows. This keeps archer v archer damage high and frees up points. This would increase loadout options while maintaining the added incentive of anti arching that huntsman provides. The difference between the current system is the flexibility in loadouts it provides giving more armor or weapon options. Maybe we would see more longbow loadouts that aren't just 0/2/0 huntsman with short sword.

There can be a separate perk for throwing weapon damage to archers if devs want to keep melee thrower anti archer playstyle.

160 572
 Cswic

@Mittsies said:

@Cswic said:
even without huntsman perk the choice is usually "do I shoot at the archer who I can 1-2 hit kill" or "shoot at the plate melee that requires at least 2 if not 3-4 shots to kill".

1-2 HTK without huntsman? Hm... not sure where you're getting those numbers from.
If Huntsman perk did not exist, every Archer would wear a medium helmet to avoid the 1HTK zone.

  • Recurve requires 3 headshots if they have a medium helmet... 4 body shots with medium torso
  • Longbow requires 2 headshots if they have a medium helmet.... 3 body shots with medium torso
  • Both Recurve and Longbow require 2 body shots even against an unarmored torso

Even with the Longbow that's 2-3 HTK assuming you never hit the legs. Let's be honest, there's no way I'm gonna bother shooting at an archer who's just gonna heal up after I land two very difficult shots into his chest. The only reason I ever shoot at other Archers is because of the Huntsman perk, it creates this situation where you're forced to duel the enemy archer to gain control over an area, rather than just ignoring each other and mindlessly firing arrows into the battlefield.

I don't buy this line about "huntsman is needed to make sure you shoot the enemy archer". Yes huntsman provides MORE incentive to shoot the enemy archer but there is already incentive to begin with. You duel / shoot the enemy first because they are the only immediate threat to yourself if you are hanging back. Melee can't touch you, the archer can shoot you. Who does anyone with half a brain shoot first? The enemy archer. This is more than enough reason for me personally to shoot other archers first.

You keep saying that its presumptuous to think archers will ignore each other without Huntsman, but that's exactly what will happen, so it's really hard to follow your train of thought here.

I say "Let's remove huntsman and see how it will play out for a few weeks since current huntsman play is not so great".
You say "I know "exactly" how it will play out, somehow, so no".

What is a testing period for if not testing? 16 patches of melee changes, is a few week period without huntsman that difficult to stomach?

Here is the situation so far with current huntsman based off of the typical TDM / SKM

  • Plenty of archers ignore other archers in favor for melee anyway.
  • Why? Because A) they don't realize there are enemy archers. B) the enemy archers are far enough away to not be a huge threat so long as you adada. (e.g. archers firing at each other from towers in camp vs firing on melee in the middle) and C) they are bad archers who will ultimately lose out to archers who prioritize enemy archer first before firing on melee.
  • Archer loadouts are heavily built around avoiding huntsman 1 shots which restricts choices.

Neither of us knows what would actually happen which is why a test period would be nice. People may armor up or they may drop armor points since not as much armor is needed to avoid 1 shots from archers. They may go for weapons or perks instead. A shortbow loadout could go shortbow with greatsword + light chest and maintain the same HTK vs a huntsman longbow that previously would have required 0/2/1. Longbow loadouts could go even 0/0/0 if they wanted and maintain the same HTK as a 0/2/0 loadout vs huntsman longbow. There would be much more freedom for loadout choices. If need be raise the point cost of bows by 1-2 points if loadouts become too crazy.

Monsteri's suggestion of restricting archers to naked / light helm is also better than current huntsman even though it kind of restricts loadouts. Why?

  • Ensures low HTK vs other archers of 1-2 shots always for all bows.
  • Ensures 1 HTK vs archers from many thrown 1hand melee weapons. Throwing axes would still 1 HTK head.
  • Removes cheesey 1 shots vs archers that huntsman caused. E.g. 1 throwing axe to Medium chest, 1 longbow shot to naked leg, 1 throwing knife to light chest, etc.
  • Means that if a melee loadout closes the distance with an archer he is already at an advantage since he can 1-2 shot the archer in most cases with a 2hand weapon.

TL;DR:

Would be nice to have testing period of 1 or more of the following:

1) Huntsman removed, all else kept the same. Potential for some crazier archer loadouts so may need something to keep them in check.

2) Huntsman removed, bow cost increased to compensate for the potential points freed up to keep archer loadouts in check.

3) Huntsman removed, archers restricted to Light and Naked helm to maintain low HTK on archers with headshots.

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  • 7
  • 20 Sep
 Cswic

Why not have no huntsman for a few weeks then to see how it would actually play out?

Sure Chiv did archers like shit and we want to avoid having archers just spam shoot melee constantly. However Mordhau damage values vs plate/medium are also about 1 HTK higher on average than warbow/longbow were for vanguard and knight in Chiv. In other words even without huntsman perk the choice is usually "do I shoot at the archer who I can 1-2 hit kill" or "shoot at the plate melee that requires at least 2 if not 3-4 shots to kill".

Saying "without huntsman archers will just shoot melee like they did in Chiv" feels too presumptuous because of the damage differences.

Yes the situation would change if archers all decide to equip more armor from the 2 points free'd up from not equipping huntsman making the typical HTK between archer / "knight" more even. That is assuming that everyone only opts for more armor though, which is why I feel a test period would be good to see how it plays out or they can increase the point costs of bows.

Monsteri's suggestion of just having no helmet for archer's is worth considering too. This would also provide incentive for archers to pursue other archers still since they can always 1 shot them. Since it is only a headshot though it still feels skillful rather than a throwing axe to medium chest or a legshot to naked legs.

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  • 6
  • 19 Sep
 Cswic

"Perk is perfect".
Being handed 1 shots because you picked a 2 point perk is far from perfect.

" Kills don't need to feel satisfying when you're an archer". This is just bait right?

Shift the topic a bit then. What would be an anti archer perk alternative that is not just a meme tier 100% damage increase while still providing anti archer incentive?

Disarming shot perk that enables your arrows / projectiles to knock the bow out of an archer's hand?

Poisoned ammo drastically increases bow sway until you heal up to full HP?

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  • 19 Sep
 Cswic

@Naleaus said:

@Cswic said:
If these archer hybrids are spending more time in melee because their melee loadout isn't as shitty shouldn't that make melee players happy? Now you have 1 less guy camping a tower spamming arrows and 1 more guy in melee.

That's a big if there. What is more likely to happen is that they'll still camp, but it'll be harder to kill them when you finally do get to them. Why would they purposely join the fray, unless it comes to them or they run out of arrows?

This entire thread is full of big ifs from myself and many posters because there are too many variables to say how it'd play out. The only thing that is known is that anti archer perk forces every archer to play around it and it can impact the skill gap between a good and a bad archer too much currently.

Shooting someone in the leg and 1 shotting them is a joke. Shooting a medium helm and 1 shotting it is a joke.

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  • 3
  • 18 Sep
 Cswic

@das said:
Playing against 2/2/0 Recurve Bow + BSword on a regular basis as a melee or as archer would probably be even more obnoxious.

Archer tax is what lets damage vs melee and damage vs archers be sensible. A Recurve Bow archer potentially being 2/3/1 + quarterstaff with no Huntsman perk in the game just makes him an obscenely obnoxious person to kill for both Longbow archers and NORMAL MELEE PLAYERS, let alone Crossbow with its infinity reload time and other Recurve Bow archers.

If you remove Huntsman, the "mandatory building around this" thing still remains, only in a direction that makes archery annoying for the entire playerbase: spending 2 or MORE points on armor to be essentially unkillable from counterarching, further encouraging archers to keep shooting at melee untul they get hit once, upon which they just hide and regen, hiding optional if you just turn around with pavise.

I mean if Counter-Strike had bunnyhopping and Quake weaponry, the better individual player would win duels way more, but that would detract from the game's tactical and blink-of-an-eye "realistic" (for 1998 games) feeling.

Ask for cheaper bow costs instead imo. 7 for RBow and XBow, 9 or 10 for Longbow.

I don't see why I would ask for cheaper bow costs since that is not the issue here. The cost for bows is fine. The base damage bows deal is fine.

The issue is that there is a 2 point perk that is as much a crutch for archery as shields are for melee. Except that people defend the perk tooth and nail but shit on shields 24/7.

What is wrong with a hybrid build though? If the qstaff example here is spending time in melee he is not shooting people with his bow. and qstaff is basically a support melee weapon itself When he does decide to shoot people with the shortbow / crossbow he is probably not as effective as a longbow archer. If these archer hybrids are spending more time in melee because their melee loadout isn't as shitty shouldn't that make melee players happy? Now you have 1 less guy camping a tower spamming arrows and 1 more guy in melee.

Like the loadout system is meant to encourage variety but the existence of AA perk goes against this. There is no guarantee that people would just take more armor with their extra AA perk points if huntsman was removed. Some may opt for a better melee weapon or for a different perk.

160 572
  • 18 Sep
 Cswic

@Pred said:

@Cswic said:

@Pred said:

@Cswic said:
The incentive is to kill the enemy archers if you are counter arching in order to prevent them from killing your melee.

Let's not kid ourselves that this will be anyone's priority.

Why do you find that so far-fetched? The main threat to yourself as an archer is other archers which also happen to be a threat to your team overall. There doesn't need to be the threat of huntsman hanging over you to go after enemy archers first. The archers that decide to ignore enemy archers and go after melee more will just be shot in the long run.

Because people want kills in the game and won't care about playing a role of protecting their melee. They will get more and easier kills shooting melee players.

We've already seen how it plays out in Chivalry, no one with a bow ever bothered to shoot archers because you had to shoot far, isolated target twice, while you could easily rack up kills spamming into the incoming mass of melee players and get them sweet triple kills.

Bows also dealt more damage to knights / vanguards on average than bows in Mordhau do to plate. If you are concerned about a typical pub game and encouraging archers to go for other archers devs can add in counter arching accolades or whatever that gives bonus score for shooting another archer as an archer.

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  • 18 Sep
 Cswic

@Pred said:

@Cswic said:
The incentive is to kill the enemy archers if you are counter arching in order to prevent them from killing your melee.

Let's not kid ourselves that this will be anyone's priority.

The main threat to yourself as an archer is other archers which also happen to be a threat to your team overall. There doesn't need to be the threat of huntsman hanging over you to go after enemy archers first. The archers that decide to ignore enemy archers and go after melee more will just be shot in the long run.

160 572
 Cswic

The incentive is to kill the enemy archers if you are counter arching in order to prevent them from killing your melee. You also shoot archers first in order to give yourself breathing room since now you have no need to worry about being shot at. Better to prioritize low armor targets as well. You want to give more incentive then devs can tack on bonus points / awards for counter arching to encourage it.

Here let me paint this another way for you.

"Patch 18 introduces the melee master perk. Melee master perk lets you deal 50% more damage to players who equip a T3 helm or chest. This provides more incentive to fight plate wearers".

But that would be retarded, just like a current huntsman is retarded. Being granted 1 shots because you have a perk equipped does not feel rewarding, it feels cheap.

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  • 3
  • 18 Sep
 Cswic

I've played a decent amount with huntsman and without it now and honestly feel like it is not needed. I am only going to talk about the perk in relation to bows since the perk + throwables is a different discussion. The only time where it feels like you "need" the anti archer perk is when an enemy archer is using it.

The point cost of the longbow prevents any lb archer from ever being more than 2 shots from death so long as you pick your shots, even if they spend all 5 remaining points on armor. Majority of longbow archers run 0/2/0 right now, but that is mainly because of the existence of the huntsman perk so let's assume that we would see more 2/2/0 loadouts if the perk was removed. Even with a 2/2/0 loadout the archer is still able to be 2 shot by any combination of head shots and leg shots or put at 5 hp with a chest shot + leg/headshot. The damage still feels satisfying enough without huntsman. I don't feel cheated for not getting a 1 shot kill against a medium helm, because you should be used to not 1 shotting medium helm from melee play.

What does feel like cheating though, is shooting someone in the leg and 1 shotting him because he has on naked legs. Or shooting a medium or plate helm and 1 shotting it with anything outside of a maul. 1 shotting someone with light chest feels just as cheap. They don't feel like kills you earned just kills that were handed to you because you picked out a 2 pt perk. There is also the issue that the perk closes the skill gap between different archers too much.

You can even argue that the existence of the huntsman perk is what is preventing archers from having more melee capable loadouts and being a more flexible playstyle rather than your typical campy / hang back archer. If an enemy archer is using huntsman you will likely feel compelled to equip it as well (lets assume that skill level is about even here) just to keep up in the 1 shot arms race against the enemy archers.

To summarize:

  • kills you get just because of huntsman don't feel satisfying, they feel cheap (personal opinion here but I'd be surprised if people think a leg shot 1 shotting feels satisfying).

  • the existence of huntsman influences archer loadout design heavily and encourages campy archer style as a result. You are either building your loadout around taking the perk or building your loadout around defending against it.

  • huntsman is the equivalent of shield for archers. It is unfun to play against, not particularly fun to use, strong, and it lets a somewhat lacking player close the gap with subjectively better players.

160 572
 Cswic

Followup with another instance of the bug where the opposite happened. He has no quiver so huntsman damage shouldn't apply since it could be easy to mistake as a chest shot.

Headshot deals 100 damage, but no dink.
Flesh wound kicks in since he took 100 damage, but it shouldn't have since since it was a head shot. Seems to be consistent with what marox said about server using the visual location to determine if it was a headshot though.
Arrow looks like it stuck to his neck / shoulder area.

160 572
  • 4 Sep
 Cswic

Stabs are a bad joke.

160 572
  • 2 Sep
 Cswic

Didn't realize there was a bug thread until now, whoops.

One handed bastard sword stab release is 300ms.

I know that the patch notes mentioned 1/2 handed mode having different releases but the 300 ms stab release seems wrong. Even carving knife has the standardized 350ms stab release.

160 572
  • 1 Sep
 Cswic

Thanks for the in depth explanation as always.

160 572
 Cswic

I have been on the receiving end and giving end of this. Even heard the headshot dink and got the hitmarker. Handful of times I'd be 0/1/0 in patch 16 and get an axe stuck in my head only to live. Now in patch 17 I have this happen. Is this simply ping related? I had 80 ping on the server which is in the "high but still mostly playable" realm.

I know that when you throw a weapon at something the weapon often snaps a little to the set stuck position on the object. But this case doesn't seem like a "it hit chest but snapped to a head stuck position" really.

I had huntsman on which is why it did 74 since thrown axe deals 37 to light chest.

160 572
 Cswic

Recurve bow can shotgun spam at close - medium range too easily because of the low sway. Looks like some lars anderson or legolas bullshit. Also would be nice to have a simple dot crosshair option without the "T"

Maul / blunt hitsounds sounded more satisfying in patch 16 imo. Feels bad to headshot someone with a maul and hear a "dink" sound rather than the nice thud or thunk from previous patches.

Footstep sounds are basically nonexistent now. No point in spending 2 points on rat perk when no one can hear you coming anyway. Also do your footsteps make the same sound for your enemies as they do for yourself? Or is this another dual perspective thing?

Cosmetic flinch from arrows can be annoying if someone attacking you is shot and then does a cosmetic flinch anim mid attack.

Headshot hitboxes seem screwed up or the 1st person perspective is. Plenty of instances of seeing blood splatter in your chest area / below weapon hand in 1st person only for it to be a headshot.

1hand bastard sword stab release is 300ms. Somehow I doubt that is intended since even the carving knife has 350ms stab release.

Stabs hitting before grunts and feeling nearly instant in general isn't very fun. Particularly when combined with the longer morph and feint windows.

Cat perk would be better if it increased the distance you could fall before taking damage in addition to reducing fall damage.

Dodge perk seems okay at best. Don't really feel it does much to level the playing field of a 6pt loadout with dodge perk vs a 3/3/2 + 5pt+ weapon setup but maybe I just need to use it more.

Also as pred mentioned, not a big fan of the helicoptering and "180 run away combined with helicopter spin" that is more common now due to the movement changes and turncap tweaks.

Some bushes look to have different textures / models now and they don't allow you to hide in them as well as previously. See the larger bushes on camp / tourney. New bushes look like some stringy weeds stuck together. Patch 16 on the left patch 17 on the right. Right side has max foliage settings too. Are the new bushes better for performance at least?

bush1_2.png

160 572
  • 31 Aug
 Cswic

Killing bards should give double the points.

160 572
  • 29 Aug
 Cswic

Is this intended or a bug?