Mordhau
 Cswic
  • Likes received 597
  • Date joined 26 Jan '16
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173 597
 Cswic

Whenever drawtime = damage was mentioned prior to the release of archers it was always shot down because of the inconsistent damage = bad philosophy. This was before horse momentum damage was added in though so maybe that philosophy has changed a bit.

This thread is for projectiles as a whole but each of the 3 projectile types (dedicated throwables, 1hand throwables, bows) sort of need different issues addressed.

1handed melee throwables / maul

  • These should probably be looked at least after other projectiles are nerfed. Back before dedicated throwables were added in 1hand throwable spam was somewhat annoying, but not nearly as much dedicated throwable spam.

Dedicated throwables:

  • I like the idea of throwing axes and knives being map pickups or made available through blacksmithing (if that is still a thing).

  • Rocks could be left as the 1 throwable projectile left, however they should not refill from an ammo box. Rocks already bounce off of enemies upon hit so if you want to retrieve them after hitting an enemy it is much easier to do so than with axes / knives that get stuck.

  • Nerf the ammo count if need by and headshot damage too maybe. Torso damage seems fine for now.
  • If rock spam becomes too prevalent or annoying after other throwables are removed from loadout then limit them to map pick ups and peasant loadout only.

Archers:

I don't think having draw time = damage will address a lot of people's grievances. Cyclone mentions that it feels like shit to be having a sword fight only to lose 50 hp from an archer 200ft away. Having draw time = damage won't make it feel any less shitty to lose 50 hp to a max draw time shot. It will just make the shitty feelings less frequent, assuming draw time for max damage is any longer than current draw time to fire.

What Mittsie's said about map design is going to be a big factor in archer balance. You can see how bad it feels currently on towers in camp, cliffs on Mountain peak, or having to deal with an archer shooting from spawn on pit (will likely be adjusted but still). Gradtest64 is actually somewhat decent for archer balance. The dungeon entrances that red can access provide solid flank routes to try to ambush any archers on the main castle wall.

They can make archery deal half the damage it does now, but if the archer can sit all the way up on a tower in camp and easily spam those down below the situation won't improve. A combination of the two may work, but that only addresses long range archers.

What should be done with the archers that sit close up near the fringe of a fight and spam, similar to how throwables are played? Map design won't be able to influence them as much. I think adding extra bow sway upon moving would help with these situations a bit. If the archer is up close to a fight he is within range of 1hand throwables so standing still will make him vulnerable.


TL;DR version:

1hand throwables:

  • leave untouched for now until other projectiles are nerfed. If too strong at that point, then nerf.

dedicated throwables:

  • map pick up only or also from blacksmithing like others said. no ammo box refill?
  • rocks left as only throwable for loadout. limit to map pickup only as well or peasant loadout if too much spam

archers:

  • map design to prevent wide open lines of sight like Mittsie's said.
  • damage nerf for longbow and shortbow against plate.
  • crossbow left as the "tank buster" bow.
  • bow sway upon moving to make close up bow spam more dangerous/difficult
173 597
 Cswic

Ran into a crossbow firing off 2 shots per reload today, happened 2-3 times in a row. It was probably due to high ping / packet loss as he had about 200-300 ping. I had about 90 ping on the server. Seeing ghost projectiles on your own screen at super high ping is normal enough. but this is the first time I ran into a situation of someone else lagging and me being able to see the projectiles which makes me feel like the projectiles existed on the server itself and not just his client.

None of them hit me so I can't say whether or not both projectiles could deal damage. Monty tried to replicate the issue afterwards so we could test it but was unable to.

If both of the projectiles deal damage then it'd be concerning if people could purposefully cause the bug with a lag switch or something.

173 597
 Cswic

Pretty sure great sword parry drain negation is bugged considering it is so high that all weapons only drain 4 stam against it. Maul is the only one that actually works properly here since it has 24 stam drain. All others are less than 20 but it looks like there is a 4 stamina drain regardless.

173 597
 Cswic

@Vegust said:
Greatsword parry drain negation is 20, according to its stat table in the weapons menu, which is not true, right?

I think it has to be a bug. 20 stam negation makes it so that a maul, poleaxe, and dagger strike all drain 4 stam against greatsword parry. Meanwhile they have 24, 18, and 15 stam drain respectively. Must have a minimum of 4 stam drain or something.

173 597
 Cswic

@Sir Zombie said:

@Cswic said:

@Frise said:

@Goof said:
Like seriously? The dude is a dick and is nothing but a nuisance at all hours of the day to the community. It's good that he's gone.

He only got banned when he insulted a dev specifically. Just contributes to the experience of being able to be a toxic cunt as long as you don't offend crush.

Also banning him from all VAC servers is just stupid. Ban him from official servers, sure. It should be up to server owners to choose who can play on their server without having to forget VAC.

I agree that in the future banning from official servers and not private ones would be better in most cases. This wouldn't work right now though. The primary NA and EU servers are private servers so to only ban lazy from official servers would not be a ban at all until launch when there are more players. If the devs want to punish lazy for his behavior then the ban has to be all servers for the time being.

Devs shouldn't be able to ban people on private servers. Why is NA playing on an unmoderated server? And if the devs wanted to avoid abuse from Lazy then they should've just unfriended him on steamplay.

Who said the servers are unmoderated? No one did. I said they were private servers, never mentioned anything about their moderation.

Corpsehammer, jax, and whoever owns tower of joy could ban lazy on their servers and that basically removes his chance to play. Ideally this would be the case where devs ban official and then server owners decide what they want to do.

The point is that given the current situation of the player base and what servers are populated, banning lazy from only official servers is effectively no punishment.

It would be a toothless ban that serves no purpose until release.

173 597
 Cswic

@Frise said:

@Goof said:
Like seriously? The dude is a dick and is nothing but a nuisance at all hours of the day to the community. It's good that he's gone.

He only got banned when he insulted a dev specifically. Just contributes to the experience of being able to be a toxic cunt as long as you don't offend crush.

Also banning him from all VAC servers is just stupid. Ban him from official servers, sure. It should be up to server owners to choose who can play on their server without having to forget VAC.

I agree that in the future banning from official servers and not private ones would be better in most cases. This wouldn't work right now though. The primary NA and EU servers are private servers so to only ban lazy from official servers would not be a ban at all until launch when there are more players. If the devs want to punish lazy for his behavior then the ban has to be all servers for the time being.

173 597
 Cswic

Let's see. There are many instances of people being toxic to other players in game and in forums. No perma bans from game as far as I can tell. Puppets at least has said shit as bad as lazy in game to other players but never to devs from what I know.

What are other instances of players being toxic to devs personally? Aside from jax at times.

I can't think of many off the top of my head but most devs are EU so maybe someone else can shed some light.

So sure, only one instance of player being permabanned. But so far we have many instances of players being toxic to players, and only one instance (someone else can chime in here with other instances of they exist) of a player being this toxic to a dev which resulted in a ban.

173 597
 Cswic

Oh boy philosophy / logic 101 terms here we go.

Saying that devs could decide to ban someone else on a whim is not a fallacy when there are no rules currently in place.

Lazy case was just common sense, as in obviously there were some ban worthy things being done rules or no rules.

Why was lazy not banned months ago? Why was puppets not banned? Both of them have said racist shit tons of times and just been toxic in general or trolled games.

173 597
 Cswic

Why are you going in about stuff lazy said to the "customers in the store" or stuff he did to other players in the server? It is not relevant according to the discord chats so talking about it is just missing the point of op's concern. The analogy would be more accurate if you said he went into a store and shit talked the owner who then refused service.

By all accounts though, the racist and edgy shit he said only mattered when he said it to devs.

Basically means this ban is personal and not because of some "we don't tolerate racism or being a dbag in the community" type reason. Instead the reason is just "we don't tolerate talking shit to devs" given the info shown so far.

Sure, devs can ban who they want from their game as that is their right. But next time it may be you who says something that a dev decides to take the wrong way, or he is having a shit day, and then you get banned. Devs have to probably put up with a lot of stuff already without someone talking shit to them. It isn't unfair for them to just say "fuck this guy, banned" in the moment, but long term it can look lousy.

The reason to have rules in place is to make sure there is a line clearly drawn about what is acceptable. This is good for everyone as there will be no confusion on what is bannable and if devs ban someone else that player can't easily turn around and say it was for personal reasons if devs can cite rules the player broke.

Should a lot of this be common sense? Sure. But there is absolutely no harm in having rules or guidelines established for future issues.

173 597
  • 1
  • 27 Sep
 Cswic

Some crush comments from disc on huntsman that basically resolve the thread. No guarantees, take with grain of salt disclaimer since it's just discord comment etc etc

"ill adjust it based for all the weapons individually probably"

"i do want to tweak huntsman a bit though, so the legs dont get one shot"

173 597
  • 3
  • 26 Sep
 Cswic

Okay, that option has been added since it has also been mentioned often.

173 597
  • 26 Sep
 Cswic

https://mordhau.com/forum/topic/13656/huntsman-poll/

separate thread for poll for any interested since poll may have been too buried in here.

173 597
  • 1
  • 26 Sep
 Cswic

Quick poll for some of the more popular suggestions for huntsman from another thread. For those that may not know, huntsman is a 2 point perk that increases projectile damage to archers by 100%.

Huntsman poll
173 597
  • 1
  • 23 Sep
 Cswic

Obvious shit stir detected.

173 597
  • 1
  • 22 Sep
 Cswic

^ Huntsman only affecting headshots like you mentioned is another decent idea. The perk cost could also be lowered to 1 point if need be to compensate for the nerf.

173 597
 Cswic

It is not about me not wanting to be 1 shot on naked legs,
if I want that I roll light leg. It is about the fact that 1 shotting naked legs feels retarded, as does 1 shot throwing axe to medium chest, and 1 throwing knife to light chest. Such things should not exist.

The Archer duel dynamic of making them concentrate on you while avoiding shots and going for melee etc would exist regardless of huntsman existing.

Regardless of huntsman existing archers are still the main threat. You have the same options to deal with them that you described. How would removing huntsman shatter that typical scenario? Or did I misread something?

Another alternative worth considering is just making huntsman baseline for all bows. This keeps archer v archer damage high and frees up points. This would increase loadout options while maintaining the added incentive of anti arching that huntsman provides. The difference between the current system is the flexibility in loadouts it provides giving more armor or weapon options. Maybe we would see more longbow loadouts that aren't just 0/2/0 huntsman with short sword.

There can be a separate perk for throwing weapon damage to archers if devs want to keep melee thrower anti archer playstyle.

173 597
 Cswic

@Mittsies said:

@Cswic said:
even without huntsman perk the choice is usually "do I shoot at the archer who I can 1-2 hit kill" or "shoot at the plate melee that requires at least 2 if not 3-4 shots to kill".

1-2 HTK without huntsman? Hm... not sure where you're getting those numbers from.
If Huntsman perk did not exist, every Archer would wear a medium helmet to avoid the 1HTK zone.

  • Recurve requires 3 headshots if they have a medium helmet... 4 body shots with medium torso
  • Longbow requires 2 headshots if they have a medium helmet.... 3 body shots with medium torso
  • Both Recurve and Longbow require 2 body shots even against an unarmored torso

Even with the Longbow that's 2-3 HTK assuming you never hit the legs. Let's be honest, there's no way I'm gonna bother shooting at an archer who's just gonna heal up after I land two very difficult shots into his chest. The only reason I ever shoot at other Archers is because of the Huntsman perk, it creates this situation where you're forced to duel the enemy archer to gain control over an area, rather than just ignoring each other and mindlessly firing arrows into the battlefield.

I don't buy this line about "huntsman is needed to make sure you shoot the enemy archer". Yes huntsman provides MORE incentive to shoot the enemy archer but there is already incentive to begin with. You duel / shoot the enemy first because they are the only immediate threat to yourself if you are hanging back. Melee can't touch you, the archer can shoot you. Who does anyone with half a brain shoot first? The enemy archer. This is more than enough reason for me personally to shoot other archers first.

You keep saying that its presumptuous to think archers will ignore each other without Huntsman, but that's exactly what will happen, so it's really hard to follow your train of thought here.

I say "Let's remove huntsman and see how it will play out for a few weeks since current huntsman play is not so great".
You say "I know "exactly" how it will play out, somehow, so no".

What is a testing period for if not testing? 16 patches of melee changes, is a few week period without huntsman that difficult to stomach?

Here is the situation so far with current huntsman based off of the typical TDM / SKM

  • Plenty of archers ignore other archers in favor for melee anyway.
  • Why? Because A) they don't realize there are enemy archers. B) the enemy archers are far enough away to not be a huge threat so long as you adada. (e.g. archers firing at each other from towers in camp vs firing on melee in the middle) and C) they are bad archers who will ultimately lose out to archers who prioritize enemy archer first before firing on melee.
  • Archer loadouts are heavily built around avoiding huntsman 1 shots which restricts choices.

Neither of us knows what would actually happen which is why a test period would be nice. People may armor up or they may drop armor points since not as much armor is needed to avoid 1 shots from archers. They may go for weapons or perks instead. A shortbow loadout could go shortbow with greatsword + light chest and maintain the same HTK vs a huntsman longbow that previously would have required 0/2/1. Longbow loadouts could go even 0/0/0 if they wanted and maintain the same HTK as a 0/2/0 loadout vs huntsman longbow. There would be much more freedom for loadout choices. If need be raise the point cost of bows by 1-2 points if loadouts become too crazy.

Monsteri's suggestion of restricting archers to naked / light helm is also better than current huntsman even though it kind of restricts loadouts. Why?

  • Ensures low HTK vs other archers of 1-2 shots always for all bows.
  • Ensures 1 HTK vs archers from many thrown 1hand melee weapons. Throwing axes would still 1 HTK head.
  • Removes cheesey 1 shots vs archers that huntsman caused. E.g. 1 throwing axe to Medium chest, 1 longbow shot to naked leg, 1 throwing knife to light chest, etc.
  • Means that if a melee loadout closes the distance with an archer he is already at an advantage since he can 1-2 shot the archer in most cases with a 2hand weapon.

TL;DR:

Would be nice to have testing period of 1 or more of the following:

1) Huntsman removed, all else kept the same. Potential for some crazier archer loadouts so may need something to keep them in check.

2) Huntsman removed, bow cost increased to compensate for the potential points freed up to keep archer loadouts in check.

3) Huntsman removed, archers restricted to Light and Naked helm to maintain low HTK on archers with headshots.

173 597
  • 7
  • 20 Sep
 Cswic

Why not have no huntsman for a few weeks then to see how it would actually play out?

Sure Chiv did archers like shit and we want to avoid having archers just spam shoot melee constantly. However Mordhau damage values vs plate/medium are also about 1 HTK higher on average than warbow/longbow were for vanguard and knight in Chiv. In other words even without huntsman perk the choice is usually "do I shoot at the archer who I can 1-2 hit kill" or "shoot at the plate melee that requires at least 2 if not 3-4 shots to kill".

Saying "without huntsman archers will just shoot melee like they did in Chiv" feels too presumptuous because of the damage differences.

Yes the situation would change if archers all decide to equip more armor from the 2 points free'd up from not equipping huntsman making the typical HTK between archer / "knight" more even. That is assuming that everyone only opts for more armor though, which is why I feel a test period would be good to see how it plays out or they can increase the point costs of bows.

Monsteri's suggestion of just having no helmet for archer's is worth considering too. This would also provide incentive for archers to pursue other archers still since they can always 1 shot them. Since it is only a headshot though it still feels skillful rather than a throwing axe to medium chest or a legshot to naked legs.

173 597
  • 6
  • 19 Sep
 Cswic

"Perk is perfect".
Being handed 1 shots because you picked a 2 point perk is far from perfect.

" Kills don't need to feel satisfying when you're an archer". This is just bait right?

Shift the topic a bit then. What would be an anti archer perk alternative that is not just a meme tier 100% damage increase while still providing anti archer incentive?

Disarming shot perk that enables your arrows / projectiles to knock the bow out of an archer's hand?

Poisoned ammo drastically increases bow sway until you heal up to full HP?

173 597
  • 1
  • 19 Sep
 Cswic

@Naleaus said:

@Cswic said:
If these archer hybrids are spending more time in melee because their melee loadout isn't as shitty shouldn't that make melee players happy? Now you have 1 less guy camping a tower spamming arrows and 1 more guy in melee.

That's a big if there. What is more likely to happen is that they'll still camp, but it'll be harder to kill them when you finally do get to them. Why would they purposely join the fray, unless it comes to them or they run out of arrows?

This entire thread is full of big ifs from myself and many posters because there are too many variables to say how it'd play out. The only thing that is known is that anti archer perk forces every archer to play around it and it can impact the skill gap between a good and a bad archer too much currently.

Shooting someone in the leg and 1 shotting them is a joke. Shooting a medium helm and 1 shotting it is a joke.