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@Rergato said:
Hey, dipwad, you want to get good at Mordhau? Practice, bitch ass. Stupid fucking idiot, practice, don't come back to these forums until you know how to be good. Dispicabel.

this but unironically

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@esturias said:
You shouldn't build this around the huntsman perk. It's a stupid perk and I still hope that it gets changed or removed...

Don't think it'd too terribly affect the weapon even without it. An archer is still faster on the draw, more mobile, and more able to follow up his shots rapidly than a gunner.

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@Lionheart Chevalier said:
If a whole team were US Marines, couldn't, theoretically, one decent archer take them all out since they're weak to huntsman, have no armor and conventional archers shoot faster?

This's my intent- where handgonnes are superior for anti-cavalry and anti-armor work, archers can outshoot them and with Huntsman clean house. You don't bring a handgonne to just replace your regular archer build; it's no musket.

In other news: Just rewrote/drew the suggestion to clean things up a bit, improve wording and visuals, and include new content and rebalances. Included a set of concepts (tiller gonne, bombard, and serpentine arquebus) at the bottom for further debate. Not sure how well balanced or useful these latter ideas are, but I'd be happy to hear everyone's thoughts.

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aye I'm gonna look away from this dude trying to stab me what's the worse that can happen
wew wait he didn't block that at all

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@esturias said:
Also no point in making it a crossbow with higher damage and changed animations, it needs some more dedicated mechanics.

Valid point. Some things I've recently thought of: bullet physics, steadying, and crosshairs

  • Because it's a round shot fired at low velocity, the bullet ought to suffer damage and velocity falloff at range (compared to the more aerodynamic arrows). Increased gravity effect on the slowing ball could come into account too. In exchange, its close range damage could be increased.
  • The handgonne requires one hand to ignite and the other to hold, so it should be fairly shaky and hard to aim normally, like a crossbow at the end of its sweet spot. When standing or crouching in front of a surface such as a watchtower window, you could steady the gun against the surface. This'd allow far more stable aiming. In this regard the handgonne could be thought of as a sort of semi-artillery weapon between the bows and the mounted weapons, justifying its high price.
  • Crosshair could be extremely wide or even nonexistent when wielding regularly, narrowing to regular size when steadied (as you can at least aim down the barrel instead of hip firing).
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shields are already a guaranteed way of fucking yourself over in a duel vs. anyone moderately skilled (read: not in frontline), they're only useful in big mobs where you've got arrows and spears flying about

if anything's to be done about shields it should be a complete rework so they're not shittily designed crutches that fuck you over anywhere outside of frontlines

i recall one suggestion where you'd have them get both a regular parry and a longer windup bulwark mode that wasn't so easy to rape with kicks, might be an option. that or some kind of shield bash

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@KonyHawkProSlaver said:
And Deadliest Warrior sucked.

aye that's literally what I said

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@Budd said:

@Antoniokontos said:
billhook and spikes

you know people can stop on the horse right? You're completely lying to your self about the state of the game, horses are by far one of the biggest reasons the player base went from 60,000 to 5,000 players in 4 months. The games dying because its not fun, players don't feel like they died because its they're own fault and their abilities they believe because horses are completely broken. Crossroads may be easier to counter with things such as throwables and bow but even then you have no way to block the swing or stab what so ever. Its worse on other maps where everyone is clumped together ( ex: Grad, in between Stables and farm.) and there's no way in hell i'm going to block the riders attack and get out alive.

This game is fucking amazing and has so much potential but its dying, its in a horrible condition and there needs to be fixes and balances, the only people who don't believe so are the die hard fans from the alpha and release that abuse the broken aspects of the game and think its fine because they're not dying from unfair mechanics and want nothing more than edgy cosmetics.

If Mordhau keeps catering to high level play the games not going to survive to see an anniversary with more than 1k players.

The games fucking dying and it needs help.

Honestly, there's little wrong with the game's high level play. What ought to be done is addressing the atrocious beginner introduction to the game. The lack of matchmaking by level means that a lot of people jump in, get shit stomped for 2 days by elite players in frontlines, and uninstall. This is compounded by some poor balance choices- horses and Crossroads blue team are a meme by now, but I guarantee they've lead to quite a few people putting down the game.

Frontlines itself is a crappy gamemode. It teaches you the best way to win is by using your teammates as ablative armor while spamming a long-reach weapon, or failing that use a shield to block 200 blows coming at you from a crowd of enemies. In gamemodes more focused on single combat and your individual skill- duels, deathmatch, skirmish, etc.- you end up unprepared. Mordhau is not easy to learn, hard to master a la TF2; it's got a sky-high skill ceiling and you get no booster seat. That itself is fine, but having the main gamemode train you how not to play the game isn't.

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@esturias said:
Kudos for the effort, but we already have countless threads on that...

That's true, but they either ask for a musket (which is a no-go for the discussed reasons) or heavily gimp the handgonne to balance it with instant shots- usually something along the lines of a ten second reload and 2 shots carried. I haven't yet seen a suggestion with a delayed-ignition gonne (the main feature of my concept for it).

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ez balance measures:

  • make blue ballista able to target ruins (as it could on release), this was their ace in the hole and return for getting a shittier entrance into the map
  • add a narrow staircase up the wall for blue from spawn where the ladders presently are
  • raise mortar onto a platform accessed by ladder, extend firing arc
  • add another mortar with an identical setup on the other side of the map covering the approach to red spawn (for the Lord hates horses and so should you)
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One of the most frequent suggestions for Mordhau is some kind of gunpowder arm to accompany the Renaissance and Early Modern cosmetics and armaments. This idea has led to lots of controversy and debate; certainly, it’s brought back some ugly memories of the unbalance in Chivalry: Deadliest Warrior and its pirate gunnery.
While it’s difficult to see muskets and pistols having any place in Mordhau at all, there is one firearm that could carve out a niche: the handgonne. A familiar friend to European militiamen and skirmishers from the 14th to 16th centuries, this primitive, hand-ignited, hip-fired gun is the perfect choice for a heavier, almost artillery-like weapon for the archers, a contrapoint to the regular bows designed less for sniper wars and more for supporting your team with powerful shots.

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What does it do?
In short form: It’s a pricey, slow, loud, heavy special ranged weapon that behaves more like you’re carrying an Engineer artillery piece than a handy bow. Its power is very similar to the Chivalry heavy crossbow, but it’s rebalanced to be less of a point-and-shoot implement and more of a strategic, close-range weapon necessitating good positioning, timing, and aim- most notably, requiring steadying on a map surface for precise shots.

Why handgonnes and not the heavy crossbow?

  • Handgonnes are loud and smoky. Visibility is the trade-off for power; good positioning is thus a key skill to not get whacked. Heavy crossbows are far easier to end up as near-silent and uncommunicative of their presence and killing power.
  • Handgonnes have numerous effects (see Behavior in Detail) that are better communicated with the imagery of a gun than the crossbow. It's more difficult to, for instance, justify having to fire a heavy crossbow from the hip, or to buy an arrow messing with shields compared to a bullet.
  • A handgonne is easier to tell apart from the regular crossbow (esp. at a distance) than a heavy crossbow. It's its own shape and animation, same as the bows to the crossbow.
  • By making the handgonne its own weapon in its entirety, rather than a variant of the existing crossbow, variations can be achieved (see below in Extra Thoughts).

Weren't guns shitty and annoying in Chiv: Deadliest Warrior?
Yes, they were- and they were also comparatively modern flintlock weapons dating to the 18th century. The big difference that makes- they're self igniting, so you can just point and shoot them, as well as aim down the barrel. There's no difficulty scoring kills with those kinds of weapons, and they wouldn’t really be a good fit for a regular Mordhau arsenal item.

The handgonne, meanwhile, is more of a handheld artillery piece than any musket. It’s very difficult to use as a point-and-shoot implement, and suffers significantly from damage and velocity falloff at range, necessitating close range placement and timing. Its best use is when it’s steadied; however, the gunner must still keep a watchful eye out for archers, as he’s very vulnerable to Huntsman counter-archery and close range attacks.

Behavior in Detail
The handgonne would cost 11 points, coming with 8 rounds of ammo and a powder horn on your hip (counting as a quiver for Huntsman purposes).

To start attacking, you must ignite the handgonne. This involves holding the handgonne with one hand, and inserting a lit match into its touch-hole with the other. Once ignited, the handgonne smokes and hisses for a set period of “fuse time” lasting 2.5 seconds, before finally firing. You may cancel the attack up until the moment of ignition, after which the weapon must continue the sequence.

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Aiming may be done before ignition and during the fuse countdown. Unlike the bows, handgonnes lack a sweet spot for aiming, and always sway significantly during normal firing. The handgonne may be steadied (a 500ms action for placing and removing the weapon) against map surfaces such as windowsills and short walls; in this state, you cannot move, but the sway is significantly reduced, enabling more accurate firing.

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Firing kicks up a big boom and a cloud of smoke. The handgonne bullet travels at 1.5 times the speed of the crossbow bolt, and is extremely powerful; at point blank, like the heavy crossbow from Chiv, it insta-kills any armor tier save T3 with a headshot, and T0 and T1 torsos with one hit. However, it is affected by falloff; as it travels, the bullet loses damage and velocity, becoming significantly less threatening at range.

Within 20 meters, if striking a raised shield, it will knock it away identically to a normal disarmament. Planted pavise shields struck by a bullet within this range will be knocked over as well.

Visually, handgonne bullets are slightly different from most tracers; they are a bold yellow, and whistle in passage. Like any other projectile, they can be parried.

Reloading the handgonne is stationary, and involves a minigame; you must repeatedly hit LMB to ram the bullet and charge down. Though dependent on user speed, the minimum time required is 4.5 seconds.

While the topic of gunnery in Mordhau remains controversial still, I remain confident that it can be done in a satisfying and balanced way. I hope that with this suggestion I’ve made my two cents in a way that advances and improves the discussion yet. Feel free to leave your thoughts, questions, and responses anywhere it’s found.

Here is a Google Docs version of this suggestion for cleaner viewing/posting elsewhere. Figured I'd include it for completeness.

Extra Thoughts
Ideas of mine I’ve thought up in relation to the handgonne. Not necessarily as fleshed out, balanced, or able to fill a niche, but still worth including as a footnote.

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Tiller Gonnes cost 8 points. Compared to the regular handgonne, the tiller gonne is much weaker; it can’t instakill T1 torsos at any range, and may only knock away shields within 10 meters. It cannot be steadied against map surfaces at all. In return, it’s noticeably faster to aim, ignite, fire, and reload, and sways moderately less when firing from the hip. It can be thought of as the “recurve bow” of handgonnes.

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Bombards are artillery vehicles similar to Catapults, and are pushed and aimed in much the same way. These primitive cannons fire solid shots on a flattened arc. The cannonball, unlike the catapult, does not deal splash damage on impact; however, it is capable of body penetration, and will sail through enemies it hits, instantly killing them and continuing on its path. It deals extremely high damage to wooden structures of all kinds (doors, ballistas, barricades, etc.) making it ideal for besieging defenders.

New Doc 2019-08-18 00.25.18_5.jpg

Serpentine Arquebuses are a form of basic matchlock gun. These would best be suited as map pickups, being the closest thing to Deadliest Warrior style point-and-shoot guns- aimed from the shoulder, they’d have crossbow-style sweet spots and very little ignition fuse time (on the order of half a second). Compared to the regular handgonne, they are significantly weaker; the bullet suffers somewhat less from falloff, but cannot defeat shields at any range and may only instant kill on headshots to T1 and below. Of all the guns this is the most iffy and isn't really necessary as a niche gun in the main arsenal.

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@ZugZugNeverEnds said:
No, guys, just no.

you giving the gun insane handicaps like long reload time, stillstanding fire, only 2 bullets etc. is not gonna work out, because people are just gonna flock up in groups with these guns, and then it doesn't matter how long the reload time is, or how many bullets they have.
because what they'll do is, they'll shoot one at a time, and suddenly they don't only have 1 bullet, but 5-12 bullets, to finish off whoever comes charging their way, and that pretty much makes them untouchable, which nullifies the handicaps you've come up with. nothing short of 10 seconds of bullet immunity after being hit by a bullet will balance a gun, and then you might as well not use one since the whole idea is to form up a regiment and neck people before they can get close.

if you want to see for yourselves how much guns hurts a game like Mordhau i recommend you try out Chivalry: Deadliest Warrior and then join a class deathmatch (or any game mode based on class vs. class. vs. class) and see if Pirates don't dominate the absolute shit out of them all, with only the occasional exception.

This is a perfect explanation of why matchlocks and any later arms shouldn't be in-game. Pirate's arms in DW were very much point and shoot affairs that were only fun to use, not face. I wouldn't really use mass gunlines as an argument though; the same can be said of crossbow squads and shortspear/shield walls.

Handgonnes/hand cannons would work, if they had a delayed fuse between ignition and firing, and were short-ranged affairs. With this setup, a gunner relies on good timing and positioning to score kills, and facing one you have the chance to close the gap, prepare to parry, find cover, etc. Finally, the short barrel and primitive powder of a handgonne means lower damage and parried bullets are not nearly as unbelievable as from proper muskets.

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dismounted elvic knight. Plate harness's all full of runey shit sandwiched inside, so it's relatively lightweight and bulletproof. Add in an 8-shot runelock repeater, poleaxe, and barded mount, and you've got a dude that can roll around like an Archaic Greek champion amidst muskets and cannons.

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tbqh you look more like uncle ruckus if he was a muslim

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a continuation to the domp
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@Runagate in short form, as to not shit up the thread: it's this weird Warhammerish pastiche of the 18th century with lots of folklore, fantasy, and /x/ happenings on the frontier. I haven't really committed it to words yet, so it's still a bit incoherent lore-wise. I could explain in longer form via PMs.

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@Rergato said:
I remember when I played through Half Life 2 I was so fucking angry when I saw Alyx Vance. What the fuck is a woman doing in my dystopian universe, weakling

idk I had the hots for female citizen model #2

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domping some pieces from this world project I've been wasting time on for the better part of a year
please forgive the shitty phone scanner
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i mean, the random ai troopers are p cool and it looked cool to be able to carve your way through them
a Mordhau gamemode where you've got your regular Frontline classes vs. a shitload of ai enemies, vermintide style, would be neat