@Prince Oberyn Martell said:

1. The party lockout is overkill.

Damn am I late to the party?

But seriously, the spear is what I use the most and it's one true use as a weapon just got removed nerfed.

@Huggles said:

@EliteTeamKiller said:
EDIT- also, why nerf shields so that it is more fun for you? (jump attacks). This isn't Chivalry. Jump attacks shouldn't even be a main stay. When have you ever seen a jump attack in a real fight? It's very rare, and you certainly don't see much of it in HEMA.

FUCK REALISM

Gtfo

Also, turtling should never be a viable tactic in a fast paced and aggressive multiplayer slasher. Fuck shields, nerf parrybox. Give a tower shield for the noobs where they can turtle but are basically useless offensively.

Here is your aggressive multiplayer slasher.

Turtling is an annoying but totally viable strategy in mordhau. It's the non-aggressive playstyle.
And I'm sure I'll see you and everyone else who thinks turtling is bad wearing the biggest "noob" shield you can find on your back as soon as all the archers start shooting you in the back of the head.

@GIRUGIRU said:

@EliteTeamKiller said:
Most of this is decent, but punishing team damage? No sir no no no. That defeats the purpose of team damage (Team Killing).

EDIT- also, why nerf shields so that it is more fun for you? (jump attacks). This isn't Chivalry. Jump attacks shouldn't even be a main stay. When have you ever seen a jump attack in a real fight? It's very rare, and you certainly don't see much of it in HEMA.

And projectiles flinching you, how is that a bad thing? You don't think an arrow to the shoulder would flinch you? It seems like you want to just have the game unfairly balanced toward your preferred style of play, tbh.

I agree with a lot of this, but some of it seems erring to far away from mah realism.

So the reason i'm advocating against 100% team damage; ask yourself the question - why would I be punished for the incompetency of my team when i have no control over who they are in pubs? All it does is breed a more toxic environment because currently team damage is far more annoying than funny. Complaints in the chat are way more common in Mordhau than they are Chiv because it's 100% full TD rather than something like 25-30%

Shields currently don't have a way of being outplayed (i'm talking about a good shield player, not some random joe) and currently the only way to beat a shield is for them to fuck up - which is not fun or engaging to play vs. At least by adding jump attacks you can mixup a high attack with lows to bypass the absolutely massive parry box that they have

Projectiles flinch; it dilutes the skill of the game and massively drops the skill ceiling - very difficult for me to clutch 1vX scenarios when people can just throw stuff into my back when it takes them 0 skill or effort at all. The damage is whatever, but the flinch will fuck you over entirely not to mention half the time it's not even the enemy team hitting you. I don't see how it's "unfairly" balanced because it applies to everyone.

Realism has never been a concern of mine seeing as the game never intended to be a HEMA simulator

@Kingindian said:
the problem with "elite feedback" is usually that they focus on balance 90% of the time when the focus should be on the design

Design and balance are intertwined. If you're talking about us suggesting entirely new things i'd imagine the dev backlog is way too full to bother doing so

I've never had a problem with team damage. IDK maybe you should stop trying to 1vX everything.

@Frise said:
It's not like I actually agree on a lot of points about dragging, like the animations being deceiving, them being inconsistent with chambers and the netcode stuff alphonse brings.

It's not like i actually give reasons for my opinion instead of personally attacking you.

But hey, since proper discussion and reason is apparentely frowned upon, let's go:

I thought you were going somewhere with this but then this happened.

Go back to being a sad failure at the game. Go ahead and complain that the game is broken when you lose and cry on the forums with the same autistic ideas that have been brought before.

I stopped reading after this. You just spew insults. Anything else you have to say you can just save it. You're not worth the time anymore.

@Frise said:

@Alphonse said:

@Frise said:
Look at your video. Meph was looking all the way up even during windup. You could clearly see that he was going for a Wessex.

Cool gamble.

Actually, he could've decel dragged to my left.

He could've accel dragged to my left.

He could've morphed into a stab.

And right until the grunt, he could've feinted.

Exactly. That's why dragging is so interactive and interesting. He could have mixed a few different moves to deceive you. And you could have reacted to anything he did. Now, obviously nobody can 100% consistently react properly to every single drag or offensive move, and that's necessary in order to have people kill each other (of course, as long as it doesn't become realistically imposible to react).

And by the time that his sword was on your right, you could no longer see it, that's true. But, by that time, it was also impossible for him to turn it into anything other than a Wessex.

I do, however, think that readability of the animations is an issue, but not in that example. And also not in the spear stab drags. Since you can parry attacks during their windup (and the parrybox lets you parry things that are not clipping you), in order to perform a stab drag you have to constantly keep it away from the opponent's body, thus telegraphing it a lot. And that's where it get hard to do a good drag against a good player, you have to very precise in order to telegraph it as little as possible, and the other player con force the parry, ending your drag attempt. Because of this needed precision, too, if you manage to react in time, it is easy to dodge the drag and get a free hit.

And all of that is why dragging is so expressive and interactive.

@Alphonse said:

But to argue that this drags shouldn't be in the game is to be in favor of lowering the skill ceiling and making the combat less special.

Where the hell did I argue that? Who did that in this thread? Please quote or link

Not you, but many people feel that way. Yeah, I kinda put that on you without realizing. Sorry.

@Ƭheodore said:
I think that wessex or "frise" drags should be removed if possible.

@kattalainen said:
Wessex drags are unacceptable though.

From my Frisedrag thread:

@ThunderDuck said:
Oh God the Chivalry PTSD. This shouldn't be in the game imho..

And of course, the numerous anti-drags thread.

btw @MrBlackDragon, if you're not gonna add to the discussion don't flood it. If you bring up any arguments at all, I'll spend my time responding to them and giving you my reasoning, like I always do. If you don't agree with it, that's fine, you don't have to and I frankly don't care. But you're just being annoying, honestly.

You're honestly not worth the time trying to discuss the game with. You give the same bs responses to anyone who has a problem with your thoughts on the game, specifically dragging, because god knows there's nothing wrong with dragging atm /sarcasm. You're asking people to react to dragging in a way the game currently doesn't support because it's in alpha. There are people on these forums that want to see this game IMPROVE on what has already been done. You're just defending an UNFINISHED ALPHA. As far as we know NOTHING is set in stone and everything will change as development continues. Stop defending something that WILL change, just like every other aspect of the game. Try to make suggestions on how it can be improved instead of defending an unfinished product.

@Frise said:

@MrBlackDragon said:
I've tried the drag argument before Alphonse. Some of these people are OK with a broken game. Frise is one of those people, there's no point in arguing with him.

Yeah that's way more useful than actually discussing things and telling me why what I say is wrong.

Because you don't read what others are saying, and what little you DO manage to read you respond with the same "no no no you just gotta do this" Your doing the same thing with Alphonse as you did with me.

I've tried the drag argument before Alphonse. Some of these people are OK with a broken game. Frise is one of those people, there's no point in arguing with him.

EDIT: I should say I agree with Alphonse in that the animations are not nearly good enough to display where an attack is coming from, or headed.

@Runagate said:

@MrBlackDragon said:

@Sir Zombie said:
EXACTLY. It is your problem, not the game's.
This is why a lot of people left chivalry. Instead of fixing the problems you just dealt with it. Same thing is goinf to happen here.

Also as a backer and alpha tester, i feel that i am free to express MY problems. Thank you.

Nothing is stopping you from expressing your problems though so feel free to.

No, nothing is stopping me. But some people just aren't respectful of others opinions and feel the need to unnecessarily slam them at any given opportunity. Changing a decent conversation into a whirling shitstorm of an argument.

Are people just seeing that I posted a comment and blindly responding?

Go ahead and drag. Drag every attack for all I care. I just want repercussions for the extra long drags. Penalize damage based on the length of the swing. If the developers want this game to have a large, successful competitive scene AND retain a decent playerbase the game needs to be accessible. Hitting someone with the end of your swing (or the very beginning for that matter) should not deal max damage. Stabbing to the side of someone's head intentionally, and then dragging the side of your blade into their ear should do nothing at all.

I understand that people want a high skill ceiling but there more mechanics to this game than drags. Which apparently some people believe is the only way to out skill your opponent.
I see a very similar situation with chambering. There are several conversations stating chambers are not worth the risk for the reward. Why aren't we getting better at chambering rather than going back to good ol' dragging? This isn't Chivalry 2. Find a new method to outhink your opponent than old mechanics from an old game.

@Sir Zombie said:
EXACTLY. It is your problem, not the game's.
This is why a lot of people left chivalry. Instead of fixing the problems you just dealt with it. Same thing is goinf to happen here.

Also as a backer and alpha tester, i feel that i am free to express MY problems. Thank you.

@Frise said:
I'm unproductive for repeatedly giving you reasons why your idea is bad, but making the same thread that has already been made 20 times, and gets the same responses every time, then ignoring every single argument anyone throws at you is productive?

1. I didn't make this thread.
2. You keep giving the same get good response that isn't addressing the problem I have with dragging.

@Huggles said:

@MrBlackDragon said:

@Huggles said:

@MrBlackDragon said:

@Sir Zombie said:

@MrBlackDragon said:
Oh dragging is inconsistent? well I have a great fucking way to take care of that, don't drag unless you want a damage penalty. That takes care of your inconsistency. Don't drag, get the same results every time.
People defending broken mechanics in the name of inconsistency is what stop slasher games from getting any better.

Dragging is a good thing. Devs have said that multiple times.
You dont like it? Just parry.

I'm stating my problem with the mechanic. It's not something I like so I'm protesting it.

Dragging is OK but as a function but should come at a cost/risk like any other mechanic. (reduced damage at end of swing). Saying that makes things inconsistent is bs. If you are dragging your weapon you will consistently do reduced damage.

Be honest here. Without the concept of drags, the ability to manipulate your attack during windup and release, how will the combat be at all interesting? Is your idea of the game parry - riposte - parry? How do you envision a highly skilled fight going down.

to put it simply, without the drags in their current condition
I'll repeat, penalize drags dont remove them.

That's not helpful at all, lmao. And penalizing drags is again just a bandaid fix that will just aggravate everyone. Sweet spot damage and all that bs just fucks with the flow of the game and makes only obvious attacks worth doing.

The flow? If you hit me with a drag you still hit me... how is that interrupting flow? Oh wait you didn't deal max damage so the flow is broken. That makes no sense.

@Frise said:
You wanna know the risk in dragging? Footdrags can be jumped, headdrags can be ducked, regular delay drags can easily be avoided with proper footwork. Drags leave you looking away from your opponent so if you get parried, you can't properly react to the riposte.

Now, if you stopped crying and played the fucking game you'd start punishing bad drags, and let the meta evolve.

The game's been out for 2 fucking weeks, you can't make opinions like this yet. Go play the fucking game and practice.

But in response, the game has been out for 2 fucking weeks why are you defending drags with a raging hardon?

@Frise said:
You wanna know the risk in dragging? Footdrags can be jumped, headdrags can be ducked, regular delay drags can easily be avoided with proper footwork. Drags leave you looking away from your opponent so if you get parried, you can't properly react to the riposte.

Now, if you stopped crying and played the fucking game you'd start punishing bad drags, and let the meta evolve.

The game's been out for 2 fucking weeks, you can't make opinions like this yet. Go play the fucking game and practice.

I wish there was a way i could block you because none of your comments are productive.

@Huggles said:

@MrBlackDragon said:

@Sir Zombie said:

@MrBlackDragon said:
Oh dragging is inconsistent? well I have a great fucking way to take care of that, don't drag unless you want a damage penalty. That takes care of your inconsistency. Don't drag, get the same results every time.
People defending broken mechanics in the name of inconsistency is what stop slasher games from getting any better.

Dragging is a good thing. Devs have said that multiple times.
You dont like it? Just parry.

I'm stating my problem with the mechanic. It's not something I like so I'm protesting it.

Dragging is OK but as a function but should come at a cost/risk like any other mechanic. (reduced damage at end of swing). Saying that makes things inconsistent is bs. If you are dragging your weapon you will consistently do reduced damage.

Be honest here. Without the concept of drags, the ability to manipulate your attack during windup and release, how will the combat be at all interesting? Is your idea of the game parry - riposte - parry? How do you envision a highly skilled fight going down.

to put it simply, without the drags in their current condition
I'll repeat, penalize drags dont remove them.

@Sir Zombie said:

@MrBlackDragon said:
Oh dragging is inconsistent? well I have a great fucking way to take care of that, don't drag unless you want a damage penalty. That takes care of your inconsistency. Don't drag, get the same results every time.
People defending broken mechanics in the name of inconsistency is what stop slasher games from getting any better.

Dragging is a good thing. Devs have said that multiple times.
You dont like it? Just parry.

I'm stating my problem with the mechanic. It's not something I like so I'm protesting it.

Dragging is OK but as a function but should come at a cost/risk like any other mechanic. (reduced damage at end of swing). Saying that makes things inconsistent is bs. If you are dragging your weapon you will consistently do reduced damage.

@Hoxalicious said:
Need god mode for chambering training, please add

Already in the game: toggledamage

Oh dragging is inconsistent? well I have a great fucking way to take care of that, don't drag unless you want a damage penalty. That takes care of your inconsistency. Don't drag, get the same results every time.
People defending broken mechanics in the name of inconsistency is what stop slasher games from getting any better.

Just ended a long night and I have to say a lot of the changes are great. I love the emotes and the console command for removing damage made it a lot easier to train in local without having to chase down bots.

But then there's the rapier...
I played for several hours against rapier-wielding opponents and all I saw was twirling twirling ballerinas. As this weapon currently behaves it totally defeats your stance against on spin fighting. And before anyone goes and says "git gud" this isn't about skill, its about the dancing around playstyle. Watching these people in spectator view was nauseating as they exploited the speed and range of the rapier.

@Runagate said:
Mordhau now is also an unfinished alpha you mong. It also has none of the bullshit exploits of Chivalry.

Also chambering is a thing.

If people are practicing and learning the game now, forming metas and most effective ways to fight the devs are going to build the game around that. It will become THE WAY THE GAME IS PLAYED, there will be no other options since popular opinion will win in the end. OP is right, as it is mordhau is a feint,morph,drag simulator AKA Chiv(minus morph).
I look forward to more game updates and features and pray we haven't seen the bulk of the game.