Mordhau
 Quenquentthebabysitter
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@CazzyVR said:
I understand Gameplay Limitations have to exist for Gameplay reasons. I have never denied that. All I have stated is that I think it was a Bad Idea as it removes the Defensive Playstyle and defeats the purpose of a Shield.

The thing is, among other things, this defensive playstyle was a problem. I actually prefer the actual version that, however, still require tweaking.

@CazzyVR said:
*I get the feeling the Shield Patch is quite Controversial.
I personally think it was a Mistake. I preferred a Held Block as that was how they are used. Realistically and Logically. Why would I only brink my Shield up when a Opponent is attacking? Defensive Stance anyone?

I mean, any form of weapon can be used as held block. The overall timed-based gameplay of Mordhau is in itself way different to reality. But I understand that it's a more conventional idea that shield are supposed to be held for blocking.

@CazzyVR said:
I do personally think those in favor of the Shield Patch were the ones mad they couldn't beat a Shield Player. So instead of finding a better Strategy or "Getting Good" they kept complaining till the Devs had to make them happy.
I guess I'll work with what I got now. A Shields Main Purpose has been removed so now we must find alternatives. "Shield Players were bad cause they didn't have to read Accels or Drags"... so? Made it easier for them. You just got mad cause your usual tricks weren't gonna get you a Easy Kill.

It wasn't only Accels or Drags, it was also feints and morphs. The only solution was kicks, at least if the Shield user wasn't backpedaling himself. "What if his back is against the wall ? He can't backpedal." Anyone against the wall will get destroyed unless there's a massive skill difference, shield or not.

Kicks being the only decent option against shield also wasn't fun for the shield user either. All you had to do was look for kicks. Kick stuns also punished you heavily for pretty much what you are supposed to do (holding block).

The other solution to beat a shield user was winning the stamina war, due to their reduced parry stam negation. Everyone in this forum and certainly the more competitive players will tell you that playing the stam war is NOT fun and discourages feints, morphs and even chambers.

The mix of kick stuns and poor stamina negation were making shields even worse than most one-handed defense-wise when outside of 1v1. Add the slow down to 3/3/3 speed when only WEARING a shield, and you can ask yourself "Why spend 2-3 points in a Shield when I can do better with a one-handed and use those points somewhere else ?"

The actual iteration of shields addressed most of those problems, even if I still think the delay to pull the shield up is way too long. I understand it's here to prevent shield from denying drags when in held mode and to not be usable in duels, but it would have been better to delay the increased parry negation instead.

If that was changed, alongside R being usable to raise down the shield and the low stam negation, held shield would be in a good spot and better than a one-handed in any situation.

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Jax's answer on the subject

we just need to get around to them, as we'll have to do quite a bit of work on the art dept plus get voice actors. it's something we wanna do but it requires a lot of resources, and right now we're focused on big updates. as cool as female characters are, they won't bring a bunch of players back to the game, and getting our players back up is a big priority for us

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@LaughingRaven said:
haven't seen a lot of maps where scattering out into 1v1s is more beneficial.

Imagine such map in a 32 vs 32 scenario. All that will make is stacking everyone in a small corridor with no place to fight. For such map to work, you would have to pretty much make 32 small corridors that could host 2v2 or even 3v3 fights.

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I like all the stats and scientific evidences put in this post. Truly a work of art that is pushing an important subject forward.

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@✵ Legate Lanius ✵ said:

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
If hit stop on friendly returns, I really think flinch should be applied and/or full damage to team swings.

But how is that better ? Team fights will feel much worse with those LMB champs

And the trolling. Just grab anything, friendly, and keep hitting teammates to interrupt them and get them killed.

Also, did anyone mention how this lowers skill ceiling ? Instead of having to learn to stab/overhead/underhead in teamfights and avoid hitting teammates, you simply slash through it. Not hitting your allies was, as strange as it might sounds, part of the things you had to be good at.

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You... do bring some good arguments. I retract my suggestion regarding reducing its speed. Now that you think about it, I remember how good the Heavy Handaxe was with its slow speed.

However, I doubt increasing its speed might work. Simply because Cleaver users, especially Bloodlust Cleaver users, are using 3/3/3. Even if you get a riposte in and reduce HTK, the Cleaver can get a hit or two before he gets hit, and can tank it thanks to 3/3/3, and isn't punished hard thanks to Bloodlust.

No, I think reducing its damage might be the way to go. Touching speed might cause other problems.

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I've stumbled on this Reddit comment by Jax explaining why being able to parry kicks is a thing in the first place :

I talked to marox about this because i was a little confused too -

"the approach of blocking kick with kick was fundamentally flawed, and was barely possible/ not possible in some cases, also limited us a lot in what we can do with the kick "

"the main problem with this "it's the equivalent of throws in fighting games" logic is that it fails hard because the kick roots you in place making it possible to footwork, which needs to be possible because in some cases you can't counterkick like after being parried etc"

kicking (form of attack) and parrying follow different conditions on when you can do them, so sometimes you'd get flinched and get kicked yet you can't do anything about it. Also, now you can use kick feints to bait panic parries, which makes kicks more useful overall.

Looking from this perspective, it does make sense : all you could do after countering a kick was kicking. You were kind of forced in an endless kicking battle until either someone misses or moved away from his opponent. Unlike riposte and chamber, countering a kick did not gave you the initiative.

However, making kicks parable seems to be a band-aid fix, similar to the parry hitbox increase in patch 14. The overall problem was fixed, but it induced other problems. Kicks were mostly used to bypass parry-happy opponents, which is now impossible.

As for Jax saying "Also, now you can use kick feints to bait panic parries" :

  • Kicking back is still superior here. Either you are stuck in that kicking duel, or you kick your opponent.
  • Even before this change, I was panic-parrying kicks. They were so underused I wasn't used to countering them.

Jumping kicks might have changed that overall relation between kicks and parries, but I still think this is a bad solution to a minor problem that wasn't common to see. This is just making parrying even more dominant than it already was. It would have been better if there was a change in mechanic to allow the person countering the kick to have the initiative back.

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@Lionheart Chevalier said:
When your nerf-cleaver-damage-thread becomes a debate about total-game-armor-realism that will endlessly spiral into increasingly toxic circle jerks that only end when someone forgets to reply.

It was still civil here, but yeah we derailed.

Some here are against the idea of slowing down the weapon, but generally that thing is so fast, if you get hit once you won't have the time to parry the next attack. And considering how it takes 3 hits to kill Tier 3... Well you can reduce that to two. Slowing it down a bit wouldn't cause its drag to be strong since there's no point in dragging this weapon in the first place.

So, in my opinion, not only the overall damage should be reduced, but the speed too.

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@SWSeriousMike said:
But really, how condescending must one be to assume that people don't know how plate armor 'works'?

Hollywood movies and video games where people get cut in half despite wearing full plate armor kind of broke the idea of how effective plate is.

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@SWSeriousMike said:

@LaughingRaven said:
Why can't the kick be replaced with a shield bash if you have a shield equipped?

What would be the benefit gameplay-wise?

To be somewhat aggressive when in held mode and defend yourself. Right now, you are a sitting duck if you are getting attacked, and forced to turtling unless you riposte, which takes you out of held mode, the opposite of your goal. Even if it only interrupted attacks, I would take shield bash over riposte in held mode any day.

I understand you answered "What would be the benefit gameplay-wise?" to call out his random suggestion without reason, and I do call people out on that too, but here it might work for something.

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That's more moving the problem further rather than solving it. If it's not the Training Sword, it will be Longsword with Friendly, or Quaterstaff to stun-lock one teammate.

It enables too much trolling to be added imo

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I also think attacks should be flinched by team mate's swings.

Imagine the trolling with the training sword. You don't tk but you keep on interrupting them.

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I have mixed opinion on the change.

On one side, it does make 1vX harder, which is a good thing in my opinion, and people that were running in with their big sword and naked body are now getting melted down in seconds instead of staying alive for ever killing half the team while your teammates couldn't get him due to everyone hitting each other.

On the other, the big part of skill of 1vX is now impossible to reach, and teamfights are absolute chaos. And not the fun kind of chaos. I have seen people simply swinging madly in the middle of their team just in hope to hit something.

But worst of all : I've surprised myself exploiting this to my advantage. Hitting through teammates just to get one guy. And I think elements of Xv1 and teamfights is gone : learning to not hit teammates and positioning.

In my opinion, this last one is the reason I do not like the change. I can't imagine the madness in SKM mode or more competitive team modes now...

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@Jax said:
it does a lot of damage but has less range than fists

that being said imo it's too fast

Even if I tend to agree with it being too fast, I think damage is the number one problem.

Range doesn't matter that much in Frontline. When you go Cleaver+Bloodlust, you want to rush in on one guy and cause as much damage/havoc as possible. Kill the guy and repeat. Even if it's one of the many reasons to grab a more expensive weapon, range isn't a big factor here.

When you play Bloodlust, you simply want a cheap weapon that can kill fast. That's why Cleaver and War Axe tends to be favorites, but only Cleaver allows 3/3/3 armor.

@SWSeriousMike said:

@The Bird said:
The Bird decrees that this is insufficient. This kitchen knife of bird slaughter must be banned as an assault cleaver.

Meh. You could achieve the same with a carving knife and a bump grip.

Carving knife doesn't stagger on slash hit opposed to Cleaver, so no.

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Rather silly to have such a thing balanced around autokicks...

Even if it's nice to see less people running in gun-blazing and killing 2-3 guys before he goes down when in 1vTooMany scenarios, the bad chaos of teamfights isn't worth the change.

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I do like most of the suggestions here, but disagree with some :

Voice emote spam cooldown

I think spamming voice emote is part of the charm of the game, especially V. If voices are that annoying, there should be a better way to mute players spamming those instead.

Halberd / Spear brace option (base of shaft on ground) for anti-cavalry defense

Might be complicated, in term of key-binding, to add another alt-mode. And I might meme here, but it would be a bit complicated for new players.
But apparently, the devs are trying to find a way to make those works against horses, by having them get scared/jump when hit by a Spear.

Map braziers should cause fire damage / ignite projectiles like the firepit

If you can ignite with map braziers, effectiveness of the fire pit will be reduced. And I believe there's an other problem with the fire pit that deserves its own post.

Weapons:

Even if I'm open to suggestions, I think there's enough weapon variety right now. Sabre looks like a 4 point version of the Falchion and I don't see the point of having another Falchion and Quarterstaff.

Toolbox Deployable:

I honestly think the Toolbox have enough tools as it is, and having access to map deployables might break any form of balancing maps had. The idea of a Tripwire as a seperate weapon, however, could be nice to have.

Myself I would like to suggest :

  • Being able to see the health and stamina of our killer BEFORE what they gain from killing us.
  • Tier 0 face cosmetics
  • A bandanna that you can actually use with hoods
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@Coffinmaker said:
1) Make defensive stance on/off timings much faster, this is ridiculous completelly unjustified nerf. It slows down movement too much, allow opponents to catch you when changing stance, while its totally unjustified as first stage of starting to hold a block and normal shield parry are very similar - its almost the same movement of shield and hand. Shield parry is not like a weapon parry.

Even if I'm part of the people that agree the delay it takes for shield to go in held mode is too high, I believe it is absolutely justified. Imagine being able, in duels, to deny slower attacks by switching to held mode AND with an insane stamina negation. Shields being able to deny drags/feints/morphs is the reason they were reworked in the first place, and the slowed movement is to prevent easy dodge and even more abuse in duels.

But I agree right now, the delay is too long. I suggested before to have the time it takes to hold R to go in held mode be reduced, the delay to be reduced but to have the increase stam negation to only be applied after a small delay.

@Coffinmaker said:
2) Consider making parrying with shields easier, e.g. by having longer window, this way it will be also more natural to block multiple strikes with some delay one from each other

It's... already the case. It's part of Patch 16's changes. It's only 50ms but that's enough for me. Otherwise they will get better than parry shields in this domain and deny drags without efforts.

@Coffinmaker said:
3) Shield parry should have always very high stamina drain reduction (as opposed to held block in which hits should deplet stamina fast)

Stamina negation was part of the problem with held shields : put it too low and it's simply better to take a one-handed, too high and parry shields becomes an inferior option. But if you give low stam negation on held block, you will deny the main reason to use it : be a goddamn shield wall.

I honestly think their parry stam negation should be at 12/13, that way you can use most, if not all, of the one-handed with shields without getting screwed parry-negation wise, but I understand it would make them stronger compared to parry shields. For me, held shield should be overall better than parry shields, but cost more points.

@Coffinmaker said:
To summarize. You seem not to remember that the game is not in beta state, its officially released game. You cannot release stupid stuff, just to fix it in next patch. Start being professional, not excercising bigt amount of game developing amateurship.

Then start thinking about what you are suggesting instead of having obvious mistakes in your suggestions.

Rant aside, I understand why you get impatient, just like many held shield users here. It took Triterion quite some time to actually find a decent way to implement held shields. But I do think Triterion are improving in their development and allow themselves to do risky moves, despite the playerbase's reaction (see no-more stop on teammate hit change). On top of that, they are more serious than other companies regarding balance and bug fixes coughChivalrycough.

@Coffinmaker said:
Also suggestion about scoring - since block holding now is a unique shield role and comes with such an effort, consider giving points to a player for every shield blow he receives. Perhaps with some min time interval to avoid exploits.

No. The reason to use held mode should be because it's good. That you get assist points when teammates kill someone you were blocking, why not. But farming points shouldn't be the reason to use held mode.

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We got a patch with Shield stuff :

Shield wall turncap more lax
Shield wall movement speed increased to 66% (from 50%)

Some of the main complains about held mode has been addressed. Now to see if that's enough.

Shield wall now has a longer raising/lowering delay to prevent abuse in duels

Wasn't the time it takes to pull up held mode one of the main complains too ? I mean, I can understand how it would be broken in duels to pull up held mode against any drags, but I would have preferred if the delay was shorter but the increased stam negation would be delayed when shield wall is pulled up.

Also, can we please (once the held shield balancing reach a decent state) have the stats of held mode ? Like stam negation and turncap.

Players can now riposte out of the shield wall at any time, even without blocking
Shield wall stab riposte animation now comes from the same side, making it a bit harder to read

Having the option to riposte to get out of held mode is a good idea ! Allows you to not be a sitting duck when wanting to go out of held mode.

Shield wall shields now have 1 less stamina negation, but 25ms more parry window (50ms more total compared to regular parry)

Oh come on. Held shield being a downgrade in particular but important spots compared shieldless to one-handed was spoken about since day 1. The more you reduce stamina negation, the smaller the array of weapons to grab gets. It makes those shields a bad option when in duels or 1v1 scenarios. Right now, unless you have a Cleaver, Dagger, Wooden Mallet or Rapier (or Blacksmith Hammer or Warhammer for Kite Shield), you will be at a disadvantage. Even if the increased parry duration is nice, I would prefer grab a parry shield in this case.

Shield model now acts as blocking collider during ripostes, buffing their ability to 1vX

I don't remember who exactly suggested this, but I know it came from this forum. So, for the ones saying the devs aren't listening, not only this patch is proving you wrong, but so is this one specific change.

In my opinion : Triterion, you are on the good path regarding held shields. But please, instead of putting obvious holes in them (stam negation in this case), increase the point cost. You simply cannot put held shields and parry shields at the
level. I'm sure people will agree with me that I would prefer something strong and expensive rather than cheap but with obviosu flaws when compared to one-handed.

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The first objective of Grad Blue really feels like a filler objective more than anything. I think it's alright, but we might see problems in the future with trying to do a 32vs32 in what is pretty much the castle's courtyard.

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@KonungrHjalmarTheFurryVIKING said:

@Cryptic said:
Stop hitting your teammates

Well they need to stop go between me and my opponent

Then learn to feint to not hit teammates. Prefer flanking to not hit others. Improve your positioning by movign away from teammates. Prefer stabs/overhead/underhead in teamfights. See opportunities to hit instead of always attacking. Be more of an annoyance rather than something that wants to kill in Xv1, etc, etc...

Learning how to not hit teammates is, as weird as it might be, a skill to learn and something to improve at. You can't fix stupid teammates running in your attacks but you can play around it.