Mordhau
 link_mah_boi
  • Likes received 67
  • Date joined 7 Jul
  • Last seen 19 Sep

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@LuxCandidus said:
They planned on adding all the stretch goals' content, whether they raised enough money for them or not. It would have just taken them much longer if they had not raised enough money.

Is there a source on them planning on adding all the stretch goals' content? Where did you hear this?

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Impressive to see this done without officially supported tools.

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@Antoniokontos said:

@link_mah_boi said:

@SWSeriousMike said:
There was no mention of people cosplaying as Hitler either. Where is the toggle for that?

If enough people want it then sure!

There's very clearly demand for a gender toggle, I don't see how not having other toggles is meant to preclude it

@ToLazy4Name said:
(vid)

Don't know if you noticed but that video was not on the Steam store page. Neither was there any mention of female characters in the Steam description, or the homepage of this website, or the FAQ. https://mordhau.com/ All you could see was in big words

"MULTIPLAYER MEDIEVAL MELEE GAME"

and pictures of dudes, and only dudes, fighting.

I knew nothing about this game having female characters until I'd already bought it. And after finding out, I was fine with it because a mod told me there would be a clientside toggle. Now there's no toggle, so I'm getting something added to the game I never wanted, and wouldn't have bought if it was made known to me at release.

And there are plenty of other people who feel the same way. There's also probably people who still haven't even heard about female characters and will only find out about it when they open the game one day.

https://mordhau.com/forum/topic/1008/development-blog-3-customization/

Ah yes, the 2 year old alpha video that wasn't on the Steam store page, wasn't on the FAQ, and wasn't on the front page.

Don't pretend it's reasonable to expect people to search through 2 year old alpha footage to find out a game is promising one thing and doing another.

What is reasonable, on the other hand, is adding an optional, clientside gender toggle.

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@CatR said:
(strawman)

I saw the literal exact same smug behaviour from Chiv players mocking people for not wanting ballerina swings in the game. I saw the exact same behaviour from defenders of Battlefield V before release. We all know how that turned out. You can be smug all you like, but you'll be being smug in a dead game.

Mordhau's playercount is at 4,629 right now just in the first 2 months, the game can't afford to add controversial things that might potentially make players leave, without any way to turn them off clientside.

@Deadmode said:
So you assumed that there was only dudes.

The advertisement for the game showed massive amounts of male fighters with not a single female knight among them, while the description called it "medieval", "believable", and "realistic". Because Disney princess warriors are actually not medieval/believable/realistic, no female characters is a completely reasonable assumption to make.

You might as well be saying, in defense of Sauron armor being added, "well, they didn't say it WOULDN'T be in!"

Personally, I think Triternion should stand their ground and stick to their design brief and what was promised to those Kickstarter backers and followers of the project from day dot.

Those few people who backed the game on the promise of being able to play a female character will be getting to do so. An opt-out clientside toggle means almost all players in a given server see you as a female character except those who specifically do not want to do so for reasons of immersion, not wanting to hit girls, etc.

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@Patchy said:
ocER.png
Leave no skin exposed

It's a shame you can't choose to overshadow eye slots like some of the bots appear to have

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@SWSeriousMike said:
There was no mention of people cosplaying as Hitler either. Where is the toggle for that?

If enough people want it then sure!

There's very clearly demand for a gender toggle, I don't see how not having other toggles is meant to preclude it

@ToLazy4Name said:
(vid)

Don't know if you noticed but that video was not on the Steam store page. Neither was there any mention of female characters in the Steam description, or the homepage of this website, or the FAQ. https://mordhau.com/ All you could see was in big words

"MULTIPLAYER MEDIEVAL MELEE GAME"

and pictures of dudes, and only dudes, fighting.

I knew nothing about this game having female characters until I'd already bought it. And after finding out, I was fine with it because a mod told me there would be a clientside toggle. Now there's no toggle, so I'm getting something added to the game I never wanted, and wouldn't have bought if it was made known to me at release.

And there are plenty of other people who feel the same way. There's also probably people who still haven't even heard about female characters and will only find out about it when they open the game one day.

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@mr_jah said:
this is not a discrimination, am I not allowed to see what i want to see lol ?

Agreed 100%. After all, when we bought this game there was no mention on Steam of female characters ever being added.

There's no good reason not to let customers keep the visuals/sound of the game in the same state as it was at launch.

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@Antoniokontos said:

@link_mah_boi said:

@Antoniokontos said:

@link_mah_boi said:

@SWSeriousMike said:
I fail to see how it would benefit me.

The playerbase not dropping off by an unknown quantity, meaning you have more people to play it with for years to come. It's only two months after release, and right now, there are only 5,000 people playing. It would be unwise to risk alienating players and dropping the playerbase even further, when you can just give people an option that keeps everyone happy.

this player base like chivalry is not casual friendly that's why the numbers are down its not the politics its the community those who remain will be the true fans the others where just on to see what the hype was all about

You're not getting my point. I'm not saying politics are why the playerbase is low. I'm saying, since the playerbase is low and this is a niche genre, adding controversial elements people can't disable will make the playerbase drop even further.

True players only care for being good in the game not petty settings

To me this sounds a lot like the attitude some Chiv players had with people quitting over ballerina spins. When you say "good riddance" to community members you disagree with and ignore their complaints, you end up with no community.

@SWSeriousMike said:
There are many people more I wouldn't miss. I don't think that racists, bigots and trolls are enriching my gaming experience. I'd even say alienating those would benefit me.

To say that everyone who wants a gender toggle is a "racist, bigot or troll" is disingenuous bullshit. As I have already said, people have given many reasons for wanting an optional toggle, including people who would like the option to play the game all-female, and players like me who don't even use text chat much- let alone to troll- and are totally fine with female characters in other, non-medieval settings but just can't get immersed in a medieval game where some thirteen year old's sexdoll is running at me screaming on every battlefield.

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@Antoniokontos said:

@link_mah_boi said:

@SWSeriousMike said:
I fail to see how it would benefit me.

The playerbase not dropping off by an unknown quantity, meaning you have more people to play it with for years to come. It's only two months after release, and right now, there are only 5,000 people playing. It would be unwise to risk alienating players and dropping the playerbase even further, when you can just give people an option that keeps everyone happy.

this player base like chivalry is not casual friendly that's why the numbers are down its not the politics its the community those who remain will be the true fans the others where just on to see what the hype was all about

You're not getting my point. I'm not saying politics are why the playerbase is low. I'm saying, since the playerbase is low and this is a niche genre, adding controversial elements people can't disable will make the playerbase drop even further.

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@SWSeriousMike said:
I fail to see how it would benefit me.

The playerbase not dropping off by an unknown quantity, meaning you have more people to play it with for years to come. It's only two months after release, and right now, there are only 5,000 people playing. It would be unwise to risk alienating players and dropping the playerbase even further, when you can just give people an option that keeps everyone happy.

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@Deadmode said:
Whilst you can't see shrek colours in Frontline, you absolutely can see cavemen and also romans and vikings

Respectively these cosplay attempts all easily blend in to the rest of the game as poor peasants, a guy using a kite shield (Roman shields were square or ovoid- not pointy), and Scottish gallowglass (who travelled to the mainland as mercenaries using outdated gear). No matter what the cosplay is trying to do, at the end of the day they're all just wearing assorted medieval clothing.

PS: Great insults, they still don't address the core of the argument. There's no reason to be against the gender toggle, it benefits everybody. If people want the same level of immersion they have now maintained, that's fine. There is no point trying to convince them that they don't find the game immersive now.

There are many different reasons people have for wanting a gender toggle which allows you to play with only men, a mix of men and women, or only women. I've seen people say that they don't want to be decapitating girls brutally, which is fair enough. I've seen people say they want to play waifu simulator with only female knights, and if that's your thing and it's not on my screen, sure. And I've seen people say they enjoy the manly man boys' club camaderie of what Mordhau is right now. So why not make everyone happy? More options are always good.

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@Deadmode said:

why are you getting so worked up about some women in the game but you are quite happy to face-off against a caveman, or a tomato, or Shrek?

"Caveman, tomato and Shrek" are not visible in Frontline because of team colors. You can't have the green white and brown for Shrek. All I'm seeing from my perspective is poor peasants wearing medieval clothing.

Your argument doesn't hold up with how Mordhau is full of ridiculously unrealistic mechanics, behaviour and content. There is literally no realism or immersion argument beyond the pseudo-realistic-but-still-very-arcade combat and some castles.

Nothing in Frontline is "ridiculously" unrealistic to the point of breaking any immersion you could have, which is why so many of us manage to have an immersive experience. There are small unrealistic elements here and there, many of which are unavoidable to make Mordhau work as a game, but none of them are constantly in your face and ears like a horde of screeching fapbait characters in every server would be. One guy in every third server standing in spawn playing a lute does not break my suspension of disbelief because I don't even have to see him most of the time, let alone fight him.

Medieval mercenary combat in the late 15th/early 16th century was a mishmash of different types of old and new gear, mail and robes and plate, helmets and hats, cavalry and infantry, spears and greatswords, with different mercenaries from all over the continent clashing in battle,, and that's just what Mordhau is. Overall, Mordhau is the second most realistic medieval video fighting game after Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

I hate this attitude of "oh well there are some small unrealistic things, so realism no longer matters at all and we can just add whatever to the game you bought". Especially when this game was sold with realism and believability as a major selling point.

Mordhau is FAR, FAR from that level of realism, which would support a strong case against their addition and there is literally nothing that can be presented to give a solid reason why, in this make-believe world, that women and black people can't be added.

I'm fine with expanded range of skin tones though, there's more historical precedent for it, and unlike waifu knights it's not ahistorical as well as biologically unrealistic and unbelievable.

And I'm not saying women "can't be added". I'm saying Triternion should give us the clientside gender toggle they brought up themselves as a solution to this issue.

@ToLazy4Name said:
Then get a refund and go away lmao they've given their statement

Dear Wannabe Moderator, nobody's forcing you to read this thread where paying customers, players who keep the product alive, give feedback to the devs. We want everyone to be happy and nobody to refund, which is an entirely possible outcome.

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@SWSeriousMike said:
The game was advertised with female player characters.
Also it's not like you lost a feature. Additional options are to be added.

Female characters are likely to be added and you are not entitled to a refund because of that. Deal with it!

No, the game was not advertised with female player characters. A video to alpha testers which was not displayed at the point of sale is not advertising, and it is not reasonable to expect a person purchasing the game on Steam in 2019 would go hunting for alpha footage from 2016 on Youtube.

If you buy a jacket and the cashier smears tomato sauce on it at point of sale, you may not have "lost any features" in that case either, but the look of the jacket is still ruined.

Yes, you are entitled to a refund under the consumer laws Valve are bound by if the product's advertising was misleading. Steam is actually very lenient with handing out refunds in my country now because of the court case where Valve got sued for $3 million for not giving refunds. I don't want to refund, but if no dev stance is forthcoming and the game becomes Waifu Simulator 2019, I won't have much trouble getting a refund.

Also, congrats for taking this discussion way off track.

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@SWSeriousMike said:

@link_mah_boi said:
Another strawman from the sophist, are you just going to make up imaginary boogeyman arguments to knock over all day? Nobody said lawsuit, but it is grounds for a refund from Steam, and I don't want to do that.

No, it isn't.

Someone's not familiar with the ACCC, apparently. Valve is bound by consumer law on Steam purchases ever since 2015. It's grounds for a refund.

Thing is, I don't want to have to get a refund, I just want to be happy keeping the Mordhau experience the way I have it now, and keep everyone else happy also. There are no good reasons not to add a toggle, so add a toggle.

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@Deadmode said:

Battlefield V's death had has nothing to do with female or black characters.

You're pretty out of touch.

"The first Battlefield V trailer from last week's big reveal now has more than 320,000 "dislikes," which is far more than how many "likes" it has, and many viewers are expressing their opinions in some harsh ways in the video's comments section. It's a similar situation to the dislike campaign against Call of Duty's Infinite Warfare reveal two years earlier. Battlefield V has already seen its fair share of backlash before the trailer's debut. The marketing campaign for this installment focuses on female characters, even going so far as to feature a woman on the cover art. Some gamers were upset with this inclusion, threatening to abandon the series if the female players were included. A hashtag was inspired by the backlash entitled "#NotMyBattlefield." DICE general manager Oskar Gabrielson responded with a promise that the female characters would, under no circumstances, be removed from play."

Also, your arguments about the game being realistic are misplaced. You quoted the store page earlier, and it does state that it is a fictional but realistic world. That means that it is a world that is plausible, but entirely fictional. That means that you cannot have things like orcs and other fantasy elements, but female warriors, seeing as they existed IRL, are quite plausible in this fictitious world.

"Realistic" doesn't just mean "plausible", it means "the quality or fact of representing a person or thing in a way that is accurate and true to life."

Whether it's popular to admit it or not, we all know women are much physically weaker, slower, and more fragile than men, and this fact has lead them to be exceedingly rare sights on the front lines of battle throughout history, even to the modern day where fighting is just pulling a trigger. To really put into scope how uncommon it is, each 200 years, you might get one mention (often part myth- i.e. Gülnar Hatun) of a female fighter, across all the countries around the globe where millions of men were fighting on a frequent basis.

Even the most generous possible estimate would put male:female participation in medieval battles at a 1,000,000:1 ratio. Because, you know, they didn't want to die against much stronger opponents and nobody wanted to send them out to die.

So to see an entire group of skinny big-hipped waifus with tiny upper bodies and no visible muscle, optimized for sex appeal by their 13 year old players, churning their way through the battlefield? Not only is that less "plausible" than even Sauron armor, that is definitely not "true to life."

Lastly, to pretend that Mordhau isn't meant to be based on the real medieval Europe is disingenous; almost every single piece of gear is a copy of a real, historical object, the whole game is named after a German fighting technique and half of the game has real-world names like "Italian cuirass" for fuck's sake.They gave every indication possible that it is heavily Earth-based.

So you've failed to convince me that it's realistic, and you're definitely going to fail at convincing everyone else who has an issue with it. Which is why a toggle should happen, because it would please everyone and there's no good reason not to.

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@CocyxTheGaySkeleton said:
(strawman)

Imagine getting this mad about people choosing what they want to see in a product they paid money for.

I want this game to survive, as well, and there are people who will quit if this goes ahead. That's a fact, and you only have to look at Battlefield V to see evidence.

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@SWSeriousMike said:
You need to sue them then.

Another strawman from the sophist, are you just going to make up imaginary boogeyman arguments to knock over all day? Nobody said lawsuit, but it is grounds for a refund from Steam, and I don't want to do that. I want to keep playing this game, with the current level of immersion I have now, and without other players also possibly quitting and dropping out of the playerbase.

Everyone wins from an opt-in toggle. People who want to play as a girl get to be seen by people. People who want to maintain their current level of immersion get to do so. And the developers don't lose a chunk of playerbase.

In response to your earlier comment:

1: Doesn't change what I said about it very rarely being seen in fights, 2, 8: See 1. 3: it doesn't happen "all the time"- that river is a small part of a single map. 4: Rocks are everywhere. AoE is the rock shattering on impact. The single person in the server using a catapult is looking at the battlefield, not the reload animation. 5: I just realized you're wrong anyway, there IS wind in the maps. Go look for yourself. 6: It's not "still unrealistic" because nobody ever has the room or reason to sprint "indefinitely", so they do not. Most sprints in the game are about 20 seconds long, there is absolutely nothing unrealistic about that. 7: No face visible, unmistakably female. 9, 10: How is "really" meant convince anyone? 11: You must have got mixed up, because if I'm meant to refer to 4, you're saying "horses are unrealistic because they reload automatically and have infinite ammo."

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@ToLazy4Name said:
Oh no the devs definition and my definition differ, false advertising wtf >:^(

So you can just make up definitions for words now? Hey guys, come buy my car, it's a Ferrari (PS: my definition of "Ferrari" is different and actually means "Toyota")

What definition of "realistic" were they supposed to be using again?

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@Runagate said:
Would you be okay with women in the game if they didn't say it's fictional-but-realistic, just fictional? What exactly is your complaint again?

I paid money for a game they said would be realistic. Then they announce they're adding a major unrealistic element to the game. It would be totally 100% okay to have that unrealistic element if they would just let us toggle it off clientside, like they suggested themselves.

If you sell a product advertised as X, but it's actually Y, and customers complain, you don't ask them if it would be better if they changed its name to Y. You do your best to make that product X for them. In this case, all it needs is the clientside toggle they brought up themselves.

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Because under recent pressure from PCGamer they deconfirmed the client-side gender toggle, which a significant part of the playerbase wanted, giving a very weak reason for doing so. Obviously people are going to use the game's discussion forum to give their feedback to the devs on this. If you approve of people censoring the things you don't like, that kind of does make you a fan of censorship.