Mordhau
 Esa1996
Baron
  • Likes received 222
  • Date joined 28 Feb '17
  • Last seen 18 Jun

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Baron 291 222
  • 28 Jan
 Esa1996

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
I think what he means is that the game puts too much emphasis on when your attack lands as opposed to where your attack lands: as in hitting around a parry without timing deceptions. I agree.

A morph is basically a glorified drag (nothing wrong with morphs or chambers, just saying), a chamber is a difficult-to-time chance for an even faster riposte and an opportunity for a difficult to read feint. There are very fast, hard to read accels and then there are riposte feints and the typical foot drags that keep you on your toes. All of these are about hitting someone during their parry recovery or before they even know an attack is coming. Throw ping issues in and how do you enjoy the game without gambling alot.

Timing should be important, but I prefer fights where I use footwork to beat my opponent, not a swing he wont have time to block or an attack that will outlast his parry. I usually train with longsword/zwei but I have the most fun playing this game with BS and heater shield, since I don't have to worry so much about drags or accels. I still have to watch for feints and drags hooking around my shield which is pretty easy for skilled opponents but I feel like I'm actually fighting as opposed to having my reaction time tested.

Solution: Longer parries, smaller parry boxes, morphs switching sides from origin and swing animations that have shorter tracer length. Shortening tracer length may mean that extending parry time is unnecessary (glancing blows may be unnecessary too) but the idea is that it makes dodging attacks using foot work more viable. Smaller hit box means its easier to get around... If I attack high you better block high, if I attack left and low you better block to your right and low. If my attack starts high but then is dragged to go low towards the end, you better turn your parry from high to low before my footdrag lands.

Increasing parry time gives more forgiveness towards timing while also allowing you get to the right position. Feinting and morphing would be about fooling where you attack, same with morphs. Basically tricking your opponent to block left while you attack right. Ideally, timing would still matter of course and dragging would still be viable since parry time would be kept short enough for that at least. Increasing parry time will also make this game more playable for high ping players.

Would all this increase the time fights take? In upper level duels, maybe, but this game would then be a lot more intuitive and fun for casuals just getting into melee games. There would still be drags ideally and there's still chambers and their feints etc. Stamina warfare shouldn't be the meta but so what if some players use stamina warfare as their style. All play styles should be viable, from stamina warfare to dragging the shit out of someone. Just right now I feel timing deceptions are the meta and I think this is why people seem to hate shields so much. I could rant on and on about other things I think would make this game better but I suppose I already have in other threads. cuogh cough lunge needs to be nerfed cough cough cough

This actually sounds like the game I always wanted Mordhau to become, not the Chivalry clone we currently have. Personally I find timing based combat to be quite boring and unintuitive (How ridiculous is it that you get punished for being fast, or that you get rewarded for blocking in the wrong direction at the right moment?), and I'm pretty sure that adding direction to the mix would greatly enhance the combat experience. TLDR: I agree with everything you said. Even the "lunge needs to be nerfed" part though if it were up to me I'd remove it completely.

Baron 291 222
  • 1
  • 28 Jan
 Esa1996

@afiNity said:
I completely agree. The game's focus is way too much on timing and it doesn't have to be like that. Other melee games show that fighting doesnt have to play like a reaction test simulator.

Wouldn't say Mordhau plays like a reaction test simulator as instead of rewarding you, most of the time the game punishes you for being fast. WOTR and M&B are far closer to reaction test simulators IMO as speed is greatly rewarded instead of punished in both games.

Baron 291 222
  • 25 Jan
 Esa1996

To be honest the game'd be better off without feints IMO. It makes no sense that any noob with a sword can easily pass through even an experienced veteran's defense with a bit of feint spamming.

Baron 291 222
  • 25 Jan
 Esa1996

Didn't think I'd find anyone who'd agree with me on the "Remove lunge" subject (Never liked it Chivalry and Mordhau's no different) though personally I'd put it higher up on the list than where you put it. Otherwise, I agree with everything you said.

Baron 291 222
  • 23 Jan
 Esa1996

@Pred said:
Some (major) footwork tweaks + lower HTK on light classes should fix it tbh, I think much harder problems are in the weapon mechanic department.

Lower HTK on light classes would make you dead without getting hit.

Baron 291 222
  • 13 Jan
 Esa1996

Remove the lunge, it's a bad mechanic anyway. I'm also very much of the mind that damage is too high and also that the different damage types have too small differences between them.

Baron 291 222
  • 2
  • 22 Dec '17
 Esa1996

IMO having to switch to a blunt weapon when fighting plate would be really fun. Apart from having direcional blocks instead of timed blocks, having a real incentive to use blunt weapons when fighting against plate was one of the biggest advantages WOTR had over Chivalry and Mordhau IMO.

I also really like long, epic duels. In WOTR a duel between a good player and a total noob would rarely last more than a few seconds, but a duel between two really skilled players might well last a full minute or even longer (This made them feel like typical movie / RPG boss fights) . Even when those duels occurred on TDM servers, not duel servers, it occasionally happened that people stopped fighting and just began watching for who would win (Of course the noobs never realized something momentous was going on so they kept on killing people if they just could) :D

Duels that last for minutes is far from realistic but IMO it would improve gameplay. Of course that's just my opinion so should the devs disagree it won't matter.

Baron 291 222
  • 22 Dec '17
 Esa1996

I tried it some weeks back just to see what it would do (I didn't really even know what mouse smoothing was). I must say, the results were quite awesome and I recommend it to everyone.

Baron 291 222
  • 21 Dec '17
 Esa1996

@LuxCandidus said:

@kEsa1996 said:
...The difference between weapons seems too small too, or at least I've never felt the need to change away from a sword even when fighting heavy armor as it doesn't really matter, even a sword kills them ridiculously fast despite their armor...

I feel the same way. I stopped using the mordhau grip on the longsword because the effort of pressing R every time I respawn outweighed its advantage. A larger difference between sharp and blunt damage would mean more consideration for your choice of sidearm, and would make double-ended weapons like the poleaxe and warhammer invaluable. It adds a layer of strategy and encourages you to learn to use multiple different weapons.

Enormous weapons like the halberd should still do well against plate, but an arming sword should be far less effective.

" ...the effort of pressing R every time I respawn outweighed its advantage." :D That's a hilarious way of putting it but it's very much true. Before the release of the alpha I used to dream builds similar to what I had in WOTR, a longsword for medium / light armored foes and a mace for heavy armored foes. Nowadays I don't even have a secondary weapon as I'd never use it, the sword takes care of everything, be it some naked jackass or a knight coated in steel.

Baron 291 222
  • 21 Dec '17
 Esa1996

@Pulimuli said:

@kEsa1996 said:
Yes. Dying of three hits no matter what you're facing, even in heavy armor is one of the game's biggest problems IMO. The difference between weapons seems too small too, or at least I've never felt the need to change away from a sword even when fighting heavy armor as it doesn't really matter, even a sword kills them ridiculously fast despite their armor. I liked how WOTR had it in that there truly were huge differences between weapons in how good they were against armor. A mace was FAR better against heavy armor than any of the swords, no matter how big, yet against light armor any of the swords were far better than the mace (Mace took 4 body hits to kill no matter the armor type, 2h swords took between 2 and 6).

Yeah WOTR had a good armor system for this, the only problem is that 2h axes,warhammers and pollaxe was incredibly op since it pretty much 1 or 2 shot everything regardless of armor. But i like that it was close to impossible to cut down a heavy armor dude with a 1 handed sword (which is pretty realistic since the sword would just bounce off plate) if you didnt stab them.

Right now you can wield a shortsword and fuck heavy armor pretty easily which is kinda hilarious

I agree on the axes. Headsman and Galloglass Axe were quite OP. The hammers and the pole weapons were quite okay though IMO. They were slow and hard to aim with so high damage for them was a must. Even so I'd say that half the weapons in Chivalry deal more damage than even the "OP" weapons in WOTR.

Baron 291 222
  • 1
  • 21 Dec '17
 Esa1996

Something similar that happened to me yesterday:

-Someone hits at me.
-I chamber.
-Their hit misses me.
-My chamber is still winding up.
-They start a combo.
-My chamber enters release.
-Their combo hits me, cancelling my chamber attempt.

Kinda ridiculous IMO. I was using a greatsword. Can't remember what my opponent was using though I'm quite certain it was some two handed weapon.

Baron 291 222
  • 2
  • 21 Dec '17
 Esa1996

Yes. Dying of three hits no matter what you're facing, even in heavy armor is one of the game's biggest problems IMO. The difference between weapons seems too small too, or at least I've never felt the need to change away from a sword even when fighting heavy armor as it doesn't really matter, even a sword kills them ridiculously fast despite their armor. I liked how WOTR had it in that there truly were huge differences between weapons in how good they were against armor. A mace was FAR better against heavy armor than any of the swords, no matter how big, yet against light armor any of the swords were far better than the mace (Mace took 4 body hits to kill no matter the armor type, 2h swords took between 2 and 6).

Baron 291 222
  • 1
  • 21 Dec '17
 Esa1996

@Monsteri said:

@kEsa1996 said:

@vanguard said:
In this test I did, I haven't found the old system to be any more reliable then the new one. Try it yourself man see what u think about it, take out damage and stamina with Toggledamage 0 and Togglestamina 0, add and remove the bots until you get one that has a 1h weapon (I forgot the bot name now, but there is this fucko with a shield and hammer, he does a good job in trying to get around your parry). Then you stand completely still, just try to parry and riposte everything.

For you to really see the unresponsiveness of the system, caused by the parry movement, try for example to riposte a right-to-left uppercut right after parring a attack that forces you to look more or about 90 degrees to your left. Ya know, try to make the hardest riposte possible from the parrying.

And remember, you could do this exact riposte on said angle with 0 problems, if you were using binds.

I might try this tomorrow.

One thing that contributes to ripostes going in the wrong direction, even in the old system, is that should your mouse not move during the time you have LMB pressed down (Even if it moves right after the click) it will revert to the old system and use the last movement before clicking as input which in this case will usually be the direction you turned towards when blocking. As the click during which you give the game directional input is really short (At least for me it's no longer than the clicks I use to navigate the menus etc.) it happens occasionally that the click ends before your flick begins and thus it will use the wrong input. Could easily be fixed by introducing a queue to the system. Once you click, it will wait up until, say, 100ms for an input, before forgetting about the click. This would mean that even should your flick begin after your click has already ended the attack would still go in the direction you want it to go. Currently in such a situation the attack will go in wherever direction you were moving your mouse before you even decided to make an attack which is not good.

Having up to a 100ms delay on the system would make it worthless competitively. Maybe it could be used exclusively for riposting, where you can input your attack during the parry, but otherwise no. The system must detect movement prior to the click or abrupt input delay will be introduced, which is a big no-no in a game so heavily focused on timing.

I don't mean that it would wait 100ms before starting the attack, just that should there be no input coming in at the point of click, it would wait for a short moment to get input before just throwing an attack in whatever direction the mouse was moving to before the click. Basically this would only cause input delay if the person making the input is bad at giving it (Aka. they give it after the click, not during it which is of course what you'd optimally want to do). In such a case the attack would not of course start immediately after the click like it normally starts, but such situations would only happen to noobs anyway and they are far more likely to notice the weapon going left when they flicked right than they are noticing their attack starting with a 0 - 100 ms delay (And as the attack starts at the same moment as their flick begins, it wouldn't really even feel like delay, merely badly given input that you can learn away from).

It's not that far from what the game currently does. At the moment, if you don't move your mouse, you can hold LMB down for as long as you wish and the game won't do anything. As soon as your mouse moves it will start an attack. Of course in a combat situation you won't be holding down LMB, merely clicking it as fast as possible, and in such situations it might happen that the click ends before your flick begins. In such situations I'd prefer for the game to wait until my flick begins and follow my flick instead of going in the wrong direction.

Baron 291 222
  • 20 Dec '17
 Esa1996

@vanguard said:
In this test I did, I haven't found the old system to be any more reliable then the new one. Try it yourself man see what u think about it, take out damage and stamina with Toggledamage 0 and Togglestamina 0, add and remove the bots until you get one that has a 1h weapon (I forgot the bot name now, but there is this fucko with a shield and hammer, he does a good job in trying to get around your parry). Then you stand completely still, just try to parry and riposte everything.

For you to really see the unresponsiveness of the system, caused by the parry movement, try for example to riposte a right-to-left uppercut right after parring a attack that forces you to look more or about 90 degrees to your left. Ya know, try to make the hardest riposte possible from the parrying.

And remember, you could do this exact riposte on said angle with 0 problems, if you were using binds.

I might try this tomorrow.

One thing that contributes to ripostes going in the wrong direction, even in the old system, is that should your mouse not move during the time you have LMB pressed down (Even if it moves right after the click) it will revert to the old system and use the last movement before clicking as input which in this case will usually be the direction you turned towards when blocking. As the click during which you give the game directional input is really short (At least for me it's no longer than the clicks I use to navigate the menus etc.) it happens occasionally that the click ends before your flick begins and thus it will use the wrong input. Could easily be fixed by introducing a queue to the system. Once you click, it will wait up until, say, 100ms for an input, before forgetting about the click. This would mean that even should your flick begin after your click has already ended the attack would still go in the direction you want it to go. Currently in such a situation the attack will go in wherever direction you were moving your mouse before you even decided to make an attack which is not good.

Baron 291 222
  • 1
  • 20 Dec '17
 Esa1996

@vanguard said:

@Monsteri said:
Vanguard no wonder you have trouble if you are exclusively using scroll wheel. It is inherently unreliable for this type of input, because it's never quite so precise in its timing as a click and can have a lot of accidental input because the mechanism didn't fully rotate. Switch to clicks my good man.

I think it actually is exactly this here:

@Pred said:

@vanguard said:
My problem is specifically with ripostes actually. I can use the 240 system to chamber and initiate attacks pretty reliably. Idk what the fuck happens with ripostes that are so damn strange in my experience.

Obviously the camera movement used to parry.

I was testing with a bot, damage and stamina disabled. I wasn't moving with WASD, just adjusting the view to parry the attacks. Against 1h bots its good because they force you to look everywhere, they try to hit you in the back very often. In my experience, both clicking and scroll wheel has abou the same result. I think I'm better using the scrol wheel for some reason. The m.angleafterattack thing also didn't help and overall it felt the same.

Maybe I'm about to say some mad shit tbh, idk, but the problem seems to be that the 240 system reads your imput way too fast after parrying. Maybe, if it had a real small delay in the movement reading process after a parry, it could make things more responsive. Idk the time you have to imput a riposte after parrying, but perhaps if half of that time the system didn't considered your mouse movement imput would be gud.

What you think? Does this even make sense?

If implemented into the old click > flick system that would introduce input delay which is not good. If introduced to the new flick > click system it might work in making attack directions more accurate but I still doubt it'd be as good as the old system.

Baron 291 222
  • 19 Dec '17
 Esa1996

@vanguard said:
I tryied it, didn't felt much of a difference tbh, maybe because I mostly use the scroll wheel to attack (both cuts and stabs), idk man. I'll try to use it more, the thing is I keep forgeting to put it on the console every time I get into the game. How did u make it a default setting?

Find the "ConsoleVariables" file in the following folder: Steamapps\common\Mordhau\Engine\Config\ConsoleVariables

Double click it. Then at the bottom of the page, in the [Startup] section you put "m.AngleAttackAfterPress=1". This will make the command load every time you start the game. Don't put the " ; " symbol before the m.AngleAttackAfterPress = 1 line as it won't work if you do.

If it still doesn't work, try placing the m.AngleAttackAfterPress = 1 line in the DefaultEngine file, located here: D:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\Mordhau\Mordhau\Config\DefaultEngine

Place the line in the top [SystemSettings] section.

Thanks to Duckalot for the instructions.

Baron 291 222
  • 19 Dec '17
 Esa1996

@REKTKWONDO said:
You are forced to aim at some side before imput, it take time, and destroy timing against Fast/Delay

Only if you use the new aiming system. With the old system you can start your attack at the same time that you aim it. Open the console and hit m.attackanglesomething = 1 into it and press enter. This changes it into the old system.

Baron 291 222
  • 19 Dec '17
 Esa1996

@vanguard said:

@kEsa1996 said:

@vanguard said:
I can pull off the attack I want in the exact angle I want, as long as I'm not fighting someone, or if I am against bots lol. As soon as I have to compensate my aim due opponent's footwork, or when those fast exchanges happens, the attack angles goes everywhere. Really, I think it must be a really small movement right before I imput the attack command that completely fucks with the 240 system for me. Sometimes it is infuriating, I stop fighting the opponent to fight the 240 system, so I go all like "damn I gotta riposte a overhead at X angle", and the whole fight I will try to riposte the overhead at the angle I want. I can't properly focus on the fights.

This makes me so salty it isn't even funny, I have to deal with Frise gay ass drags while fighting the 240 system to make it riposte in the angle I want. Why u hate me mordhau what have I done to u.

My problem is specifically with ripostes actually. I can use the 240 system to chamber and initiate attacks pretty reliably. Idk what the fuck happens with ripostes that are so damn strange in my experience.

Have you tried switching to the old aiming system? Open the console and write m.attackanglesomething = 1 into it an hit enter. Without doing this (Though I got it automatic now) I can't chamber anything, nor can I get even my initial attacks to go where I want them to go, but once I hit this into the console everything changes and suddenly my character obeys me as if his life depended on it (It kinda does though). It still doesn't feel quite as precise as it felt in WOTR but it's fairly close.

Baron 291 222
  • 1
  • 19 Dec '17
 Esa1996

@REKTKWONDO said:
With 240 it always does the attack I want to do, but it destroys aiming and timing.

What? How can it go where you want it to go yet at the same time not go where you want it to go?

Also, what's with everyone complaining about timing on the 240 system? I often find myself chambering stuff I barely even saw coming with pure reflexes. I seriously doubt I'd be able to do it if there were input delays or "slowness" in the system.

Baron 291 222
  • 19 Dec '17
 Esa1996

@vanguard said:
It is not a problem in Mount and Blade though, besides you simply can't affirm that tbh. And if this is true, then this system is flawed from the beggining already, and instead of having it by default, we need binds, and make the 240 system a option for those who wants to get fucked.

They were never a problem in WOTR either. Personally I have very little problems with them in Mordhau either when using the old control system where you can click and flick at the same time (With around 50h in the game I can reasonably reliably chamber anyone who doesn't drag, usually even morphs). Even so, I like the idea of removing binds. Seven buttons for attacking is just ridiculous.