@Naleaus said:
You can even use 240 if you really wanted for even more control over making your attack look like absolute shit.
Cause in the end that's really all either game comes down to. Scare your opponent into parrying by making your attack look hideous. You like pressing a button then moving your mouse. Some people like pressing multiple buttons. Some combine the two for some real emergent gameplay.
"In the end it's all about making your attack look like shit" - liked by a dev.
Yippee, you can't understand hyperbole.
Yeah you get angry cause you literally don't even understand what i am saying. You literally don't even know what emergent gameplay is. If you think pushing buttons in a different order is emergent, you're a fucking idiot.
Are you so shit at the game that you press a button and just stare at the screen standing still? You literally have more options to do what you want in Mordhau.
Oh no, they're going to parry my attack! What can I do?
Chiv: Drag, Feint, 3 attacks.
Mordhau: Drag, Feint, Morph, 4 attacks, 240 control system for more control if you really want it.
Your idea of emergent is, move your mouse cause they were going to parry your attack. You can do that in Mordhau too, if not as easily. You can also morph your attack then drag. How is that not more emergent? Please explain since I don't understand you. Is it cause you can't float your attack the entire length of a parry?
Emergent gameplay is when you do something you didn't even know you could do before. Maybe something that not even the devs knew you could do, whether they designed the game to be emergent or not, this is how playstyles really diversify, and what I was really hoping the devs of mordhau would appreciate from chivalry and focus on in Mordhau. But that is not a thing in Mordhau and it seems like it never will be. You seem to think moments like when you discover "Oh wow i didn't think of chambering then morphing then feinting before." Are emergent enough lol what a joke. The system is confining and limiting so there is no such thing as an emergent piece of gameplay.
Maybe you're just mad cause you can't crutch on your experience from Chiv?
Now to get personal. You had like 3 times my hours in chiv and I was better than you, so you clearly didn't have the ability to take full advantage of the system. So i can see why you'd be so defensive of a system designed to limit someone like me, who has the ability to go beyond it.
Or maybe you were bad at Chivalry too. All I remember of you in Chiv were random duel mode servers and you rage quitting often. Fun claims though, did you play against bots in Chiv too? Really going beyond that system, let me tell you.
@Cswic said:
If these archer hybrids are spending more time in melee because their melee loadout isn't as shitty shouldn't that make melee players happy? Now you have 1 less guy camping a tower spamming arrows and 1 more guy in melee.
That's a big if there. What is more likely to happen is that they'll still camp, but it'll be harder to kill them when you finally do get to them. Why would they purposely join the fray, unless it comes to them or they run out of arrows?
@idiotgod said:
What I meant by nub friendly is that it is easier to jump in and at least feel competent. It doesn't take a huge amount of hours to be able to at least survive for a bit against much better players.
It is easy to see how this is, when you have all your moves mapped out for you, where as in chiv, you had to figure out how to move your feet and your mouse at the same time, which is extremely difficult for a nub to understand. It takes like a hundred hours to even understand why you are being hit in Chivalry.
From my experience in the alpha currently this isn't really true at all. New players even when a hundred hours or so, get absolutely demolished still. There are a few exceptions, but they're definitely not the norm. You make the game sound like it has static moves or something.
and if you say something wrong on this forum you get shit on and made to feel like a nub idiot lol. So I think a lot more people are feeling this, and I want the devs to realize.
It's mostly just the OP, at least for me. He's had consistently dumb posts. I think my replies to you were mostly civil, I just corrected or had a differing opinion on most everything.
@idiotgod said:
Their goal seems to be to make it so nubs don't die as fast, and hopefully they'll tell their friends to buy the game so they can play it for 100 hours before they leave, compared to Chivalries 30 hours.
As Pred said, noobs gets absolutely slaughtered in this game.
Chivalry didn't hide the skill ceiling. It was laid bare, which most casual players don't appreciate and instead lament.
While hardcore players had the opposite reaction. They would come from level 15, a simple yet satisfying hack n slash game, and at level 16 realize there must be a lot more to it. It drives those players to get better and discover the ins and outs of combat.
This isn't a good thing. You want to preferably keep both types of players. Otherwise you sell 3 million copies but retain maybe 2-3k of those for more than 50 hours.
People say it looks retarded. But that is subjective. Go watch Obi-Wan and Anakin fight it out in Episode 3 lol and tell me how many reversals and spins they do.
No armor with a sword that requires no momentum to cut through something. If the setting wasn't medieval knights, then people wouldn't think it looks like shit. Or, they mean the animations are bad, maybe that.
It looked badass to me, and all these people saying Chivalry was pure shit are clueless. Do they know how many people have 1000, 2000, 3000 hours or more in that game? I don't see how Mordhau could hope to hit those numbers.
3000+ Chivalry hours here. Game is shit for lots of reasons. It had some things going for it too, like being the first of it's type, TO, funny sounds and gory visuals, etc. I have over 1000 Mordhau hours as well, and there are quite a few others that do too. When the game releases, it'll have funny sounds, gory visuals, big team mode, lots of shit for casuals to do, lots of character customization, etc. Lots of stuff to keep people playing. And fun is subjective.
I guess some people think it is a good thing that you can look at Mordhau and see all the ins and outs of combat within the first 5 minutes... then it is just attrition to learn the animations and build your reactions and shit. But I see it as a downgrade.
You think you can do that cause you played Chivalry first and have a basis for understanding what's possible. But that's also a detriment cause people play like it's Chivalry instead of trying new things. "It doesn't work like in Chiv, it must not be possible!" I get lots of "wtf" reactions in game for doing things that people haven't seen yet.
You didn't have to drag in any specific way to be good at Chivalry. You didn't have to Feint to be good at Chivalry. You didn't have to do reversals to be good at chivalry. Fighting each player told a unique story. They each had their own style. You could play the way you wanted.
In Mordhau, you're gonna play the right way, or you're just gonna be bad. That is how I see combat as more simplistic. Just learn the animations, build your reaction speeds, and play the right way. The combat system currently has fewer viable emergent playstyles period. Doesn't matter that there are more buttons you can push if they all fall into such a neat little tiny box of acceptable times to do them.
This is all mostly wrong, you don't have to play a single way in Mordhau, exactly the same as you don't have to in Chivalry. I probably feint less than most players with lots of hours but still top scoreboards. People flock to whatever they think the meta is instead of trying stuff on their own and then think they have to play a certain way. You don't.
@Naleaus said:
Ah fuck off with that emergent gameplay shit. You have more options in Mordhau, you just don't like them.
In Chivalry, you can feint and drag, or any combination of the two, with stabs, overheads and slashes. Luckily both drags and feints looked fucking horrible, otherwise no one would ever die, right?
In Mordhau you have feints, drags (yes, they're still useful, just different) and morphs. You also, for better or worse have undercuts as well as the other three attacks. You can even use 240 if you really wanted for even more control over making your attack look like absolute shit.
Cause in the end that's really all either game comes down to. Scare your opponent into parrying by making your attack look hideous. You like pressing a button then moving your mouse. Some people like pressing multiple buttons. Some combine the two for some real emergent gameplay.
Just spam a bunch of buttons. Hope the enemy flinches. If they do i hit them, if they don't, it is their turn to spam a bunch of buttons. Footwork is limited. Mouse movement is limited. So spam the buttons and hope for the best.
No i don't like those options. And i don't understand why people like you get so angry whenever anybody talks about how they don't like those options.
I get angry because you want Chivalry 2 instead of Mordhau. I get angry because you over simplify the things you don't like to make it seem like they're objectively less interesting. I get angry because you say things like footwork is limited, which makes me believe you still don't play the game outside of bots. I get tired of the same argument over and over. You can still drag in this game, shocking.
With that said, you can enjoy what you want. Should have posted in the feedback thread instead of a new post with a clickbait title if you didn't want people to criticize you though.
Cause they're duels. Add in drags and they're still slow paced. You're still just waiting for an attack to end so you can regain initiative. Without feints they're even slower because people take longer to die. Causing your attack to float in the air or spinning around to hit your opponent looks bad for casual viewers and even worse it's confusing to them. But why are we even talking about reverses or Chivalry tier drags? They're not coming back in Mordhau. At least Frise only advocates for subtle side drags.
And, hey, guess what, mixups still happen in Mordhau just like Chiv.
Maybe rewatch the first video and not cherry pick a single fight. Rick just backpedaled all the reverses and mostly got hit cause shit animation. Real fun to watch. Stouty did a whole bunch of dumb looking shit and got punished. Then check out the footwork that happens when Rick falls for a feint, or the early parries and then footwork to give time to catch the follow-up. The drags were the least interesting shit in that video.
@TheShade said:
It's fun and gives depth, you need skill to pull it off and you need skill to defend against it. A noob can pickup good feinting withing an hour and then make a 3k hour chiv vet start panicking.
This isn't Chiv, but let's carry on anyway.
No one can read Chivalry feints conistently since it has 15ms between a feints windup limit and release.
I don't play Chiv anymore, but pretty sure there's a 200ms cutoff on the feint window. Either way, it's not 15ms, so why make shit up?
Visually feints don't look that great for neither the defender or attacker.
Same with drags in Chivalry.
The defender just stands there without making any kind of "intense" movement. Feint reading is impressive for the competitive eye, but for noobs that don't really understand everything that's happening will find it looking boring.
If this is how you try to read feints, maybe that's the problem. How do you defend against a drag? By using footwork and pressing the parry or trying to punish. How do you defend against feints? By using footwork and not pressing parry and/or trying to punish. They're not that different.
It's fine if you like chiv drag meta, whatever. But give better reasoning.
That's not what the point of my post was. It was to counter the emergent gameplay bullshit. All I said through a bit of hyperbole is that the games are the same concept, but that Mordhau has more options, and not less like OP claims. But I had 4 hours of sleep and I'm feeling froggy, so let's look at drags then, shall we?
The best ones in Mordhau have always been the ones that look the worst. Your waterfalls, frenchfriesdrag, cucumber drag. Even your run of the mill jump drag looks pretty bad currently to your casual spectator.
So you say, let's make angle matter more so that big drags aren't necessary. This allows you to do easier drags, but still buffs the worst ones, and if you overdo the angles it feels like shit in 1vX. (I'm fine with slight nerf of parrying angle by the way, but I mean slight.) So you get your easy to land drags, but make other things feel worse.
So why did Chiv work? Cause they didn't care if things LOOKED good, and player retention suffered. Parry was pretty fucking easy in Chiv, but through a combination of looking terrible, weapon timings, being able to drag windups through people, reverses, etc, kept drags viable.
So what can Mordhau do? They're already doing it. They may have overnerfed them at the moment, but that's fine and the way you want to go about it. If they feel they're too weak they can slowly go about strengthening them. And in the end, they need to balance around team games instead of duels, and besides stab issues at the moment, team stuff feels pretty good.
The other option would be a complete rework of all game mechanics. This isn't going to happen.
But that's not the issue. The OP doesn't want good looking drags. He wants CHIV drags that give him full control to stop time. That's why this discussion is stupid, because he wants Chiv 2 with pretty graphics, not Mordhau. And fuck that.
Ah fuck off with that emergent gameplay shit. You have more options in Mordhau, you just don't like them.
In Chivalry, you can feint and drag, or any combination of the two, with stabs, overheads and slashes. Luckily both drags and feints looked fucking horrible, otherwise no one would ever die, right?
In Mordhau you have feints, drags (yes, they're still useful, just different) and morphs. You also, for better or worse have undercuts as well as the other three attacks. You can even use 240 if you really wanted for even more control over making your attack look like absolute shit.
Cause in the end that's really all either game comes down to. Scare your opponent into parrying by making your attack look hideous. You like pressing a button then moving your mouse. Some people like pressing multiple buttons. Some combine the two for some real emergent gameplay.
@GIRUGIRU said:
Feints are much healthier than swing manipulation as the main offensive tool in terms of visuals
You are delusional. Any new player can instantly understand the concept of getting sidestabbed or shoulder dragged.
Not getting into the rest of the debate cause I'm at work, but nahh to this. I've sat through the whole alpha having to explain where and why people got hit by my waterfalls, and most of them were not new players. Unless you're playing in 3rd or turn your FoV up past the normal limit, then you can't tell for shit where something hits.
@yourcrippledson said:
Make shield block match shield size.
Make parry relative to weapon size.
Terrible ideas. Hope you like never blocking anything ever.
Remove restrictive turn caps for them too.
When balancing, it's best to overnerf then adjust up. Only problem is it doesn't take long to figure it out testing with a bunch of people, but patches take too long.
Make parry require some skill and precision.
Already went over this, it leads to shit feeling inconsistent as hell. And you want to BUFF drags on top of this? You would never parry a single attack of mine.
Add higher fov options. Seriously let me see my arms lol..
Actually tested this last patch, not really necessary until current parry box is changed.
Add a real active parry.
One that behaves like an attack swing, but this is a defensive swing. It can be feinted out of and is also subject to swing manipulation. It is its own parry animation, like a real HEMA parry, and it behaves like a clash where you have to hit the enemy weapon in mid swing. It would not replace our normal "parry" (which is more like a block), but just be a more aggressive higher risk/reward defensive option, which right now we do not have. It's more like a real life parry. With a relatively quick swinging animation.
I think striking at your enemies strikes could be fun. Wow imagine that, defense being fun.
Didn't you just describe how chambers currently work? What the fuck are you going on about?
The rest of your shit is dumb enough to ignore. Do you still still just fight bots or something? I don't even fucking know why I bother replying to this crap.
So at first I was going to just say git gud or outskilled or whatever, but I looked that at the gifs closer and slowed them down, and really I got a bit lucky on both for the most part. Range was actually the biggest factor instead of speed.
For the first, if you look at the first slowed down and zoomed in a bit, you'll see you actually missed slightly. So I was able to hit first before you could correct your aim a few millimeters to the right.
On the second, again I just got lucky, this time with the slightly longer range. Timing wise you'd have won, but we started our attacks far enough away that my release was able to hit your head before your sword was in range.
They post on discord, the forums aren't the best place to get info. Additionally, the game has had a while between patches, so besides speculation or discussion of various bits of info the devs give out there isn't a lot to discuss.
The game is still in alpha, a patch should be dropping in the next day or two unless Elwebarro screws up again. The forums will liven up a bit then, but the discord is still the most active tool for communication.
Lastly, advertising isn't happening yet because the game is not obtainable at the moment. Once it gets closer to release or another way of buying into testing is available, hype will begin building. Currently, just the sweaty try hards are playing a lot, and it's not much fun for casuals until bigger game modes is out.
I don't care much about the lack of Dev blogs, or scattered communication and all that. I do like killing Jax in game with hideous shit then seeing his reaction on stream. I mean, I kill everyone with hideous looking shit, but I don't get to see the reaction. So leave the poor man alone.
20 Sep
NaleausYippee, you can't understand hyperbole.
Are you so shit at the game that you press a button and just stare at the screen standing still? You literally have more options to do what you want in Mordhau.
Oh no, they're going to parry my attack! What can I do?
Chiv: Drag, Feint, 3 attacks.
Mordhau: Drag, Feint, Morph, 4 attacks, 240 control system for more control if you really want it.
Your idea of emergent is, move your mouse cause they were going to parry your attack. You can do that in Mordhau too, if not as easily. You can also morph your attack then drag. How is that not more emergent? Please explain since I don't understand you. Is it cause you can't float your attack the entire length of a parry?
Oh no, I don't do emergent shit, I must be bad. Oh wait.
https://gfycat.com/WeepyBlankCoyote
https://gfycat.com/VelvetyHotGoral
https://gfycat.com/GorgeousSpitefulAmethystgemclam
Maybe you're just mad cause you can't crutch on your experience from Chiv?
Or maybe you were bad at Chivalry too. All I remember of you in Chiv were random duel mode servers and you rage quitting often. Fun claims though, did you play against bots in Chiv too? Really going beyond that system, let me tell you.
- 1
18 Sep
NaleausThat's a big if there. What is more likely to happen is that they'll still camp, but it'll be harder to kill them when you finally do get to them. Why would they purposely join the fray, unless it comes to them or they run out of arrows?
17 Sep
NaleausFrom my experience in the alpha currently this isn't really true at all. New players even when a hundred hours or so, get absolutely demolished still. There are a few exceptions, but they're definitely not the norm. You make the game sound like it has static moves or something.
It's mostly just the OP, at least for me. He's had consistently dumb posts. I think my replies to you were mostly civil, I just corrected or had a differing opinion on most everything.
15 Sep
NaleausAs Pred said, noobs gets absolutely slaughtered in this game.
This isn't a good thing. You want to preferably keep both types of players. Otherwise you sell 3 million copies but retain maybe 2-3k of those for more than 50 hours.
No armor with a sword that requires no momentum to cut through something. If the setting wasn't medieval knights, then people wouldn't think it looks like shit. Or, they mean the animations are bad, maybe that.
3000+ Chivalry hours here. Game is shit for lots of reasons. It had some things going for it too, like being the first of it's type, TO, funny sounds and gory visuals, etc. I have over 1000 Mordhau hours as well, and there are quite a few others that do too. When the game releases, it'll have funny sounds, gory visuals, big team mode, lots of shit for casuals to do, lots of character customization, etc. Lots of stuff to keep people playing. And fun is subjective.
You think you can do that cause you played Chivalry first and have a basis for understanding what's possible. But that's also a detriment cause people play like it's Chivalry instead of trying new things. "It doesn't work like in Chiv, it must not be possible!" I get lots of "wtf" reactions in game for doing things that people haven't seen yet.
This is all mostly wrong, you don't have to play a single way in Mordhau, exactly the same as you don't have to in Chivalry. I probably feint less than most players with lots of hours but still top scoreboards. People flock to whatever they think the meta is instead of trying stuff on their own and then think they have to play a certain way. You don't.
- 1
15 Sep
NaleausI get angry because you want Chivalry 2 instead of Mordhau. I get angry because you over simplify the things you don't like to make it seem like they're objectively less interesting. I get angry because you say things like footwork is limited, which makes me believe you still don't play the game outside of bots. I get tired of the same argument over and over. You can still drag in this game, shocking.
With that said, you can enjoy what you want. Should have posted in the feedback thread instead of a new post with a clickbait title if you didn't want people to criticize you though.
15 Sep
NaleausCause they're duels. Add in drags and they're still slow paced. You're still just waiting for an attack to end so you can regain initiative. Without feints they're even slower because people take longer to die. Causing your attack to float in the air or spinning around to hit your opponent looks bad for casual viewers and even worse it's confusing to them. But why are we even talking about reverses or Chivalry tier drags? They're not coming back in Mordhau. At least Frise only advocates for subtle side drags.
And, hey, guess what, mixups still happen in Mordhau just like Chiv.
15 Sep
NaleausMaybe rewatch the first video and not cherry pick a single fight. Rick just backpedaled all the reverses and mostly got hit cause shit animation. Real fun to watch. Stouty did a whole bunch of dumb looking shit and got punished. Then check out the footwork that happens when Rick falls for a feint, or the early parries and then footwork to give time to catch the follow-up. The drags were the least interesting shit in that video.
14 Sep
NaleausThis isn't Chiv, but let's carry on anyway.
I don't play Chiv anymore, but pretty sure there's a 200ms cutoff on the feint window. Either way, it's not 15ms, so why make shit up?
Same with drags in Chivalry.
If this is how you try to read feints, maybe that's the problem. How do you defend against a drag? By using footwork and pressing the parry or trying to punish. How do you defend against feints? By using footwork and not pressing parry and/or trying to punish. They're not that different.
It's fine if you like chiv drag meta, whatever. But give better reasoning.
- 3
14 Sep
NaleausThat's not what the point of my post was. It was to counter the emergent gameplay bullshit. All I said through a bit of hyperbole is that the games are the same concept, but that Mordhau has more options, and not less like OP claims. But I had 4 hours of sleep and I'm feeling froggy, so let's look at drags then, shall we?
The best ones in Mordhau have always been the ones that look the worst. Your waterfalls, frenchfriesdrag, cucumber drag. Even your run of the mill jump drag looks pretty bad currently to your casual spectator.
So you say, let's make angle matter more so that big drags aren't necessary. This allows you to do easier drags, but still buffs the worst ones, and if you overdo the angles it feels like shit in 1vX. (I'm fine with slight nerf of parrying angle by the way, but I mean slight.) So you get your easy to land drags, but make other things feel worse.
So why did Chiv work? Cause they didn't care if things LOOKED good, and player retention suffered. Parry was pretty fucking easy in Chiv, but through a combination of looking terrible, weapon timings, being able to drag windups through people, reverses, etc, kept drags viable.
So what can Mordhau do? They're already doing it. They may have overnerfed them at the moment, but that's fine and the way you want to go about it. If they feel they're too weak they can slowly go about strengthening them. And in the end, they need to balance around team games instead of duels, and besides stab issues at the moment, team stuff feels pretty good.
The other option would be a complete rework of all game mechanics. This isn't going to happen.
But that's not the issue. The OP doesn't want good looking drags. He wants CHIV drags that give him full control to stop time. That's why this discussion is stupid, because he wants Chiv 2 with pretty graphics, not Mordhau. And fuck that.
- 1
14 Sep
NaleausAh fuck off with that emergent gameplay shit. You have more options in Mordhau, you just don't like them.
In Chivalry, you can feint and drag, or any combination of the two, with stabs, overheads and slashes. Luckily both drags and feints looked fucking horrible, otherwise no one would ever die, right?
In Mordhau you have feints, drags (yes, they're still useful, just different) and morphs. You also, for better or worse have undercuts as well as the other three attacks. You can even use 240 if you really wanted for even more control over making your attack look like absolute shit.
Cause in the end that's really all either game comes down to. Scare your opponent into parrying by making your attack look hideous. You like pressing a button then moving your mouse. Some people like pressing multiple buttons. Some combine the two for some real emergent gameplay.
13 Sep
NaleausConfirm the key with your friend, nothing anyone here can do about an invalid steam key.
9 Sep
NaleausNot getting into the rest of the debate cause I'm at work, but nahh to this. I've sat through the whole alpha having to explain where and why people got hit by my waterfalls, and most of them were not new players. Unless you're playing in 3rd or turn your FoV up past the normal limit, then you can't tell for shit where something hits.
8 Sep
NaleausI never fall for any feint cause I just stab with waraxe.
8 Sep
NaleausTerrible ideas. Hope you like never blocking anything ever.
When balancing, it's best to overnerf then adjust up. Only problem is it doesn't take long to figure it out testing with a bunch of people, but patches take too long.
Already went over this, it leads to shit feeling inconsistent as hell. And you want to BUFF drags on top of this? You would never parry a single attack of mine.
Actually tested this last patch, not really necessary until current parry box is changed.
Didn't you just describe how chambers currently work? What the fuck are you going on about?
The rest of your shit is dumb enough to ignore. Do you still still just fight bots or something? I don't even fucking know why I bother replying to this crap.
- 1
28 Aug
Naleauslmao git gud scrub
- 1
28 Aug
NaleausSo at first I was going to just say git gud or outskilled or whatever, but I looked that at the gifs closer and slowed them down, and really I got a bit lucky on both for the most part. Range was actually the biggest factor instead of speed.
For the first, if you look at the first slowed down and zoomed in a bit, you'll see you actually missed slightly. So I was able to hit first before you could correct your aim a few millimeters to the right.
On the second, again I just got lucky, this time with the slightly longer range. Timing wise you'd have won, but we started our attacks far enough away that my release was able to hit your head before your sword was in range.
- 1
24 Aug
NaleausThey post on discord, the forums aren't the best place to get info. Additionally, the game has had a while between patches, so besides speculation or discussion of various bits of info the devs give out there isn't a lot to discuss.
The game is still in alpha, a patch should be dropping in the next day or two unless Elwebarro screws up again. The forums will liven up a bit then, but the discord is still the most active tool for communication.
Lastly, advertising isn't happening yet because the game is not obtainable at the moment. Once it gets closer to release or another way of buying into testing is available, hype will begin building. Currently, just the sweaty try hards are playing a lot, and it's not much fun for casuals until bigger game modes is out.
22 Aug
NaleausYes, just continue to allow me to have all the power. Excellent.
18 Jul
NaleausI don't care much about the lack of Dev blogs, or scattered communication and all that. I do like killing Jax in game with hideous shit then seeing his reaction on stream. I mean, I kill everyone with hideous looking shit, but I don't get to see the reaction. So leave the poor man alone.
- 1
9 Jul
NaleausIt's the bug where weapons (or a shield in this case) are really huge when you spawn in.
So unfortunately, much like everyone else, aliens don't care about you either.