Mordhau
 Digganob
  • Likes received 52
  • Date joined 8 Apr
  • Last seen 17h

Private Message

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Man I've never even seen these animations before. Can someone tell me what they look like? All I know is that made the parry boxes smaller so that they could make them less of a problem (resulting in more braindead gameplay by making it impossible to get around parries), instead of just fixing the damn bugs.

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  • 29 Nov
 Digganob

@Quenquentthebabysitter said:
I've already told @Digganob how I don't believe "simply jumping" was the go-to easy counter for toedrags, due to stamina consumption and how it does not guarantee a free hit.

I know that it isn't a guaranteed way to counter that. However, as I said, you can also crouch and parry. I'm just saying that if your opponent knows you're going for something like a toe drag, then jumping can be an easy way to put that tactic down if you become predictable.

But now that you shown all of your arguments, I have to agree with you on how this is fixing the symptoms and not the problem. The issue with toedrag is how the attack is pretty much "overhead-look away from opponent to hit their toe with the very-end of my attack". In-short : a counter-intuitive move like wessex.

As someone that wants to see balance going closer to more diverse block radius (because parrying a stab on your foot from a Zweilander using a Dagger while standing up is absolutely ridiculous), it really scares me that this might be a band-aid fix that will never be resolved.

Thanks for agreeing with me on that. I don't think that things like toe drags should be something you have to train for hours with just to make it work. It should be something that anyone can do, but since the parry box is so large, this reduces it's use to tryhards that everyone hates because they can't do it. It shouldn't be some weird trick, it should be an actual tactic used by normal players.

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  • 29 Nov
 Digganob

@esturias said:
At the very bottom of the site you have a list/line of symbols showing contact options.

Thanks.

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  • 28 Nov
 Digganob

@esturias said:

I mean no disrespect, I just want answers.

You won't get any answers here. If you put some effort into it, maybe consider writing a mail. Thought about that, too, but... meh.

I don't know how I could go about that. Is there a mail address somewhere on the site?

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  • 27 Nov
 Digganob

Sorry for the long post, TLDR: The game is not nuanced.

I think this game was really fun for a while. It is definitely better than Chivalry.

But I think there’s a huge problem with it, and I’d like to know why you all have made some of the decisions you all did.

I’ve made a thread in the general discussions category, so if you’re a fellow player, please go here: https://mordhau.com/forum/topic/20383/the-parry-hitbox-change-in-patch-14-is-a-bad-idea/?page=1

Now then, on to the topic.

A big problem I’ve realized as I’ve played the many hours I have, and as I’ve discussed it with my friends, is that the game is not very nuanced. There is really only a single aspect of combat that matters; timing.

Now this aspect isn’t very bad I don’t think. It’s good, there are various counters and such. But the problem isn’t the presence of timing as a core gaming concept, it’s the absence of another concept, aiming your attacks.

There are very few situations where it is at all useful to target anything but the midsection. If you aim anywhere else, there is a significant chance they’ll be able to hard counter it. If you aim for the legs, with the newest patch, they can not only jump the attack and hit you, they can effortlessly parry it. Not to mention that it does less damage if you do hit.

The head is not too much better. Currently, it is nearly impossible to hit your opponents head. They can crouch to avoid horizontal attacks, and they can sprint to the side to only be hit in the torso. And I’d say this is the most interesting part of the game.

But if your facing off in a competitive game against any player worth their salt, what’s the point in doing anything but attacks towards the midsection?

Now, to the question, why are parryboxes so large?

The answer isn’t the fact that people are manipulating bugs, as one reason was cited in the newest patch. You can fix the bug without having very large parryboxes.

And the other reason was that attacks such as toe stabs and overhead to leg drags were broken, which, as I’ve said above, they aren’t. They’re easily avoided, even if you can’t jump over them reliably, you can easily crouch and then parry.

I simply see no reason that parryboxes should be so large.

If they were smaller, they would make the game exponentially more nuanced.

If the problem things are too random, then you can, for instance, reduce the turncap of attacks.

If the problem is that it would make the game unbalanced; it wouldn’t. Everyone would be able to perform fancy drags and strategies, but it would be hard. It would mean there is an actual difference in the gameplay between an average player and a pro. But, it would also give the average players a chance against the veterans.

I see no reason why you would choose the path of simplistic gameplay. Sure, it would be hard. But that’s why you took so much time to make the game, wasn’t it? Please, tell me the reason you chose to make the game about timing right clicks, rather than about nuanced melee combat.

I mean no disrespect, I just want answers. I want to see the game become better.

P.S. If you can, could you tell me if modding tools that would allow changes to actual gameplay are going to be added to Mordhau eventually? If your team cannnot or will not make the changes I think they need to, maybe I can myself.

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  • 27 Nov
 Digganob

You know there’s sort of something I’ve noticed. Most of the time for most games, the developers are too scared to try anything really different. If they do it’s because nearly every player wants it. Otherwise, small changes to balance, and that’s about it.

Then there are games like DOTA2, where the guy that makes the patches is batshit insane, and constantly makes drastic balance changes, and adds new mechanics every few months, with the meta changing every couple of them.

Compare that to League of Legends, where every hero is a variant of the same few archetypes. Balance changes are few and small. The gameplay never changes meaningfully.

I’d compare Mordhau to League.

Weapons are barely different, with the only reason to choose one over another is to make something a bit easier or harder to do. “Skill” in Mordhau is limited to partying at the right time, with offense being random variants on the same thing: making your opponent think an attack is coming when it isn’t. That’s it. There are no differing play styles. There’s no point in doing anything but swinging at your opponents midsection. The best possible strategy is just riposting every attack your opponent makes until they run out of stamina.

At the same time, in League, there’s no reason to do anything but the standard meta team build. Each character is just a different flavor of the same few actual play styles. It’s pointless.

There is still skill involved in both games of course, but the same is true for beanbag toss. It just isn’t interesting.

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  • 27 Nov
 Digganob

@yourenemiesfriend said:

@Stouty said:
Nothing says intelligent gameplay than hitting through each other's parries, go play call of duty if you want to kill people in 2 seconds with minimal effort

Nothing says intelligent human like having over 1000 hours at the time yet still thinking the game was literally finished in March.

Screenshot (82).png\

Embarrasssing.

Hey now, don’t start insulting people. We’re trying to reach an agreement here, not proving who has the biggest metaphorical dick. He misunderstood me, and the argument he thought I was making was that the bug was good, which would be pretty dumb. Though I think he could tone his attitude down a little.

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  • 27 Nov
 Digganob

@Stouty said:

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
The all powerful @Stouty has spoken.

Oh sorry that one guy in your private duelyard can perform crazy insiders at 13 ping. I guess side stabbing should be totally obsolete in a duel setting.

If players significantly better than you find that the parry is unresponsive then you should probably listen to them

You’re right for the wrong reason. The parties were unresponsive, but that is a separate issue. Making parry boxes larger fixes the issue as a side effect. We’re not arguing the bug was good, we’re saying the game mechanic was a good.

@Digganob said:

Thanks for the explanation. Well, that settles it, it ain't a problem with parry boxes being too small, it's a bug. A separate issue. Parry boxes could be made small, and this issue could be fixed separately.

Go ahead and try fixing it, modding the combat is an option

I do want to mod actually, but I have yet to find any good resources or tutorials to change anything involving actual combat. If I could I would. Also, a bug inherent to parrying is likely to be beyond my ability to mod.

If they can do a fancy trick to get around the parry box, so can I dude. That's my point, they're dumbing down gameplay.

Nothing says intelligent gameplay than hitting through each other's parries, go play call of duty if you want to kill people in 2 seconds with minimal effort

You might be misunderstanding me. If you did, sorry. I was meaning that if I could, for instance, trick you into partying too high, and hit you in the legs, that requires skill, and not only can you counter it, you can do it too. I wasn’t saying the bug was a “fancy trick”.

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  • 27 Nov
 Digganob

@Quenquentthebabysitter said:

@Digganob said:
As if you couldn't, you know, jump over these attacks and get a free hit.

As if :

  • You didn't need inhuman reaction speed to determine it's a toedrag (and not an overhead/miss/anything else) early enough to jump at the right time
  • Jump doesn't consumes a lot of stamina and can't make you lose the stam war
  • It is a free hit and CFTP doesn't exist

You make a good point, but you forgot one of the things I said. If someone repeatedly does this, it’s really easy to counter.

Also, it’s a tactic that actually requires skill to do and to counter, as most game mechanics should be.

Basically what you’re saying is that this tactic adds nuance and complexity to the game, which I fail to see as a bad thing.

Lastly, “inhuman reaction speed” only really applies to when you don’t expect it, and you’re trying to jump over it. If you just, as I said later, crouch and parry, then the risk is gone.

In other words, it made the game more interesting. Now there is little point in aiming anywhere than the center of your opponent, so that a hit is always guaranteed. If you go for the legs, they can always parry it just as easy, and it does less damage. Going for the head is pretty much the only thing that’s worth actually aiming for. That’s it. I wouldn’t be surprised if they removed the bonus damage to the head, to prevent “broken head shots” which require skill and can be easily countered by your opponent, just like leg attacks.

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  • 27 Nov
 Digganob

"Now always covers the legs and feet vertically, this fixes the broken toe stabs and makes it much easier to deal with overhead drags to the legs."

As if you couldn't, you know, jump over these attacks and get a free hit. That too hard for you? You could also just crouch and then parry. Seriously, how does removing strategies from the game make it any better? They weren't broken, they were hard to do and if you did it too many times the opponent could easily counter. I don't get how making the game even simpler makes it any better.

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  • 27 Nov
 Digganob

@SoRoofless said:
If jumping is superior then simply continue to jump and your gameplay can continue to be as you like it. Meanwhile it seems they have removed a nuisance for high level play.

What.

Saying that is pointless.

You could say that if they removed chambering one day:
"If chambering is superior then simply continue to chamber and your gameplay can continue to be as you like it."

That makes no sense.

There is no longer any point to jumping outside of fighting executioner sword users with no leg armor. You know why? Because no one will swing at your legs anymore. There is no point. You do less damage, swinging at a downwards angle lowers your range, and if they expect it they can jump over and get a free hit. There are zero reasons to jump now.

Also, "Meanwhile it seems they have removed a nuisance for high level play".

This change is the ANTITHESIS of a positive change for competitive play. They literally made the gameplay less complex, which causes competitive play to be dumbed down. They are turning "high level play" into an average fight between two average players, where they simply spam feints and morphs and hope their opponent doesn't time their parry right, or parries nothing.

A "nuisance" for competitive play would be a random mechanic, that doesn't require any skill, and that can't be stopped any easier by any level of skill.

Leg attacks are the exact opposite. They require skill to do, as you have to make your opponent think you're going for a different attack, and they require skill to stop, as you have to either crouch and parry, or, hard counter it, jump and get a free hit, and punish a predictable move.

They have further reduced the skill ceiling, and made the game less fun and interesting. As I said, this is like removing chambering. They might as well remove heads and legs altogether and make the players spheres to "remove a nuisance from high level play".

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  • 26 Nov
 Digganob

@afiNity said:
and aiming your attacks becomes even more useless.

Exactly. They're dumbing down the gameplay.

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  • 26 Nov
 Digganob

@Shovonem said:
I mean we've had reduced parrybox for quite a while since release and it always felt clunky af. Especially it plague team fights and completely destroy 1 v x in competitive team games. You would see weapons just blatantly going through parry.. feels horrible. then comes some obnoxious waterfall that makes the animation look horrible. Parry changes is probably one of the best since release. The only way I could support existence of lower parrybox is for shield (with removal of telekinesis kick stun) because weapon parry need timing and shield doesn't. Although extended parry (more like telekinesis parry) should be removed.

The thing is, this is a problem with skill, not a random thing. If you properly aim your parries, it's a non issue. If it's not a problem with skill, then it's a bug and can be fixed separately. And also, keep in mind that 1vx's should almost always result in a loss for the 1 if everyone is of roughly equal skill. If 1vx's regularly result in a win for the 1, there is something seriously wrong with the game.

Also, if parry hitboxes were reduced, wouldn't that actually make 1vx's easier? If it's easier to hit your attackers, this would make them more hesitant to just simply rush you and easily parry any attack you throw. Smaller parry boxes would actually make these fights easier to deal with. Also, I never said anything about removing the bonus size you get to the parry box when parrying two attacks in a row.

Bugs can be fixed. And remember, if it's easier for your opponent to hit you, it's easier for you to hit them. A reduction in parry box size would apply to everyone, not just you. If it feels difficult to parry things because of this, everyone else would feel the exact same. A change like this doesn't make the game unbalanced, it makes it more complex.

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  • 26 Nov
 Digganob

@Duckalot said:

@Digganob said:

@Stouty said:
Would love for some of these theorycrafting joes to go 5 minutes in a duelyard with Frank insidering them, might change their tune about the parry being too big

Also what in tarnation is "insidering".

When the parry box is too small, people can manage to start their attacks behind it, visibly already inside the opponent. The result is an unparryable attack and plenty of "ground sniffing".

Thanks for the explanation. Well, that settles it, it ain't a problem with parry boxes being too small, it's a bug. A separate issue. Parry boxes could be made small, and this issue could be fixed separately.

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  • 26 Nov
 Digganob

@Stouty said:
Would love for some of these theorycrafting joes to go 5 minutes in a duelyard with Frank insidering them, might change their tune about the parry being too big

I could not give less of a shit how much harder it is to fight if parry boxes were smaller, because if it's easier for someone else to fight me, it will be easier for me to fight them. If they can do a fancy trick to get around the parry box, so can I dude. That's my point, they're dumbing down gameplay. Also what in tarnation is "insidering".

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  • 25 Nov
 Digganob

@Soulcatcher said:
Foot drags were not even an issue bro

Get the odd weird one but just looking down and parrying, or jumping as you mentioned worked fine. And it is a powerful drag.

Can still do it in my 50 odd minutes of earlier gameplay but felt harder and not sure if opponenet was just fucking up their parries.

I literally just can't comprehend why they want to basically nerf drags, make parrys and chambers even easier than they were before and just turn the whole gameplay into a spam feint morph fucking gamble stamina fest

over it

revert this

Exactly my point.

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  • 25 Nov
 Digganob

I find it extremely telling that the reason for increasing the vertical hitbox is because certain attacks are avoiding the hitbox, specifically, toe stabs and overhead drags. Why are these attacks even a problem? A very easy and simple counter to these is simply jumping. Someone keeps on making unavoidable leg attacks? Just fucking jump. You not only completely avoid damage, but also get a free hit on your opponent. I find no reason this change needs to happen.

Now, the reason I find this change telling, is that it's another example of the gameplay being more about timing your attacks than anything. Defense is simply right clicking at the right time, making it extremely boring. And attacking strategies boil down to making it harder for your opponent to right click at the right time, also very uninteresting. This change is yet another step towards bland gameplay.

An alternative to this is making parries much harder to aim. If this was the case, gameplay wouldn't just be timing, you'd have to aim your attacks, trick your opponent into defending the wrong way rather than the wrong time. This would make gameplay less about waiting till your opponent runs out of stamina, or spamming feints until you finally get a hit. Because that's what the current state of the game is. Either you use an insanely fast and tricky weapon like the rapier or bastard sword, and hope they time their parry wrong, or you just wait until their weapon flies out of their hand. This makes the game really damn boring when in a more controlled environment like in competitive dueling.

This game could continue the way it's going, and it would probably be fine. And honestly, it is really good, and it's fun, when compared to other similar games. But it would be fantastic, if the devs didn't balance the game around clicking at the right time, and actually about offensive and defensive strategies, risky maneuvers, dodging attacks, and trying for otherwise useless attacks, like swings at the legs. But right now, all you do is flail around wildly hoping you can catch your opponent off guard because they thought an attack was coming sooner than it did.

Also, it's a bad sign that instead of a fixing a bug by targeting the root, they instead opt to change an entirely separate mechanic that affects normal gameplay. Think about that. They're treating the symptoms, not the disease. They're sacrificing interesting gameplay to fix a bug.

What the hell.

Please, argue with me about this, I honestly hope I can get you all to agree with me, and maybe improve the game. If you want more details into how a version of Mordhau balanced around smaller parries would be balanced, ask me. I have a list of changes that would need to be done in order to make this balanced, changing everything from stamina economy to weapon turncaps.

Here's a google doc that shows the changes I want to make, and why. Leave comments if you have questions, but check out the "scenarios changed by these changes" section first: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NCiHuQ2iD6RAyeKNVWL3tVmJOkvss9Il1uwhkXFJmi4/edit?usp=sharing

P.S.
This issue has troubled me for a while, and I was hoping to eventually make my own mod to fix these issues I have with the game. So if anyone knows of any tutorials or modding resources that could allow me to change weapon values like parry hitboxes, I would greatly appreciate it if you'd link them. I find it unlikely I can convince the majority of the playerbase or the devs through words alone, so my own modded server would be both my best chance, and the only way I and others who agree with me could play this ideal of Mordhau.

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  • 30 Oct
 Digganob

@LetsFightíngLöve said:

@Digganob said:
I bet you think you look foolish now kiddo. (https://mordhau.com/forum/topic/20215/patch-13-released-feitoria/)

The complaint was directed towards the general lack of substantial content updates for 5 months, considering the funds which the developers received - hiring new map creators was not out of question for them.

There have been many maps created by the community made singlehandedly by individual developers in that time, but Triternion really did pull it off. I did say in my second post that this had better be the best medieval map ever created considering the underlying mechanics of invasion mode had been released, the 5 month wait and the fact they were planned for release one at a time.

And it damn well should be, it pretty much is - there could be a few more new sounds and there should be a last objective on mountain peak, Grad and Feitoria where the defebding players defend a player king or commander in a throne room - but besides those two small criticisms which can be added or fixed later Triternion really achieved something commendable and massive.

It's not even about entitlement towards content, the concern is about the perceived lack of interest from the devs in releasing content. Balancing does not count as content and the lack of content drives players away from the game. There was 1/20th (3k concurrent vs 60k) the players playing before the update compared to at release. As much as I hope that this content release brings back players, I don't want to see the game die and I hope the devs realise the need for monthly or bimonthly content updates, map extensions or cosmetics instead of nothing and no news. Its unhealthy for the longevity of the community.

I think I see your points, and the devs could be more open as to why they can't or won't pump out content faster. However, I don't think it's reasonable to complain when so much is being done. Remember they're focusing on both gameplay and content, that divides their focus significantly. Personally, I'd be fine with occasional content updates, but constant balance updates, because that makes the game more fun, as opposed to just refreshing interest a bit more often.

Remember that they could have just released this as it was. They had already made it through tons of testing and decided on what they wanted the gameplay to feel like. But they didn't, and they keep on providing both better gameplay and more content, whereas they could have just abandoned it after they got their money, but they're still working on it.

I think the only thing that is way past overdue is tools for modding and such, so that they can crowdsource content, while mostly focusing on gameplay. I think that's their one mistake, and I hope they will release tools soon, because I and many others would use them.

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  • 28 Oct
 Digganob

I was wondering if anybody knew of any modding tutorials and resources that would allow me to make the changes listed below, as well as implement them into a server:

  • Modifying the size of parry hit boxes.
  • Modifying the size of chamber hit boxes and stamina cost.
  • Changing the variables of weapons including turncap, damage, stamina damage and absorption, and windup, release, and recovery speeds.
  • Changing the stamina cost of various actions, such as jumping and dodging, and possibly introducing a stamina cost to crouching if that's even possible normally.

I'm hoping to make a mod that would significantly change the gameplay of Mordhau mainly through changing parry hit boxes to be much smaller. Ya'll can ask me about how that would work out if you want, but for now I want to make an actual mod before I start throwing ideas at all of you.

Thanks in advance, if and when I complete the mod, I hope you all will like it.