Mordhau
 Frise
Knight
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  • Date joined 16 Aug '16
  • Last seen 13 Jan

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Knight 1269 3811
  • 12 Sep '18
 Frise

@PhillyCheesesteak said:
You mentioned dueling against Naleus, who has good ping on the community duelyard which is in the U.S., suggesting he is in the US, and I was referencing that.

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Knight 1269 3811
  • 12 Sep '18
 Frise

@PhillyCheesesteak said:

@Frise said:

@PhillyCheesesteak said:
If SA means South America, then the reason feints are hard to read should be pretty obvious - your ping.

You're not the smartest tool in the shed are ya

I hear ad hominem is a solid argument and not a logical fallacy.

I hear that when you play in South America with South Americans you don't get high ping because you're playing on the same continent and that any 8 year old is able to understand this concept without having to get it explained.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 12 Sep '18
 Frise

@GIRUGIRU said:

  • Don't compare Chivalry feints to Mordhau

Stab feints are near Chiv level in regards to readability though, I find bastard sword stab feints as unreadable as SoW feints.

  • Swing manipulation does not look good to outsiders 90% of the time. This is a fact. Forget how fun it is to execute, it's simply a fact that normies do not comprehend swing manipulation and it looks bad from outside

No, that's not a fact. You can't claim it is a fact because it's not an objective truth. Swing manipulation is a vague term in this scenario anyway. Of course they don't comprehend it if it's not explained anywhere as an actual mechanic. You can't possibly argue that sidestabs look bad to outsiders, they're the most natural fucking thing. As for the more complex side drags, if parry was less lenient, you could adjust turncaps and/or release animations to make these drags less extreme in execution while still being viable. Like hitting your other shoulder during an overhead to bypass your parry.

  • Feints and clear cut accels look healthier than swing manipulation meta

Gotta love those fake-accel feint headbutts.

  • Feints are easy to execute, but take skill to deal with. That lowers skill floor and keeps high skill ceiling (that's healthy for the game)

That's the complete opposite of healthy, are you out of your mind man? A mechanic that a player with 10 hours can use, being the most difficult thing to deal with in every skill level? Literally how is that healthy for the game? "Oh u wanna improve your offense nah man don't bother just keep doing the one thing u learned during ur first 10 hours of the game, it works against everyone" That's backwards game design.

  • Feints are easy to balance with several variables (feint recovery, feint window, windup time, chambers etc.) In comparison to swing manipulation which will forever favour high release time weapons

You're only thinking about delays.

  • Feint read is visually impressive

To us chiv nerds, sure. To outsiders it just looks like a dude wiggling his sword around and the other dude doing nothing.

  • Feint heavy meta promotes an aggressive and initiative-seeking meta. This creates for exciting spectatorship. Currently I find myself allowing people to attack me so I can chamber to be offensive. This is not healthy - look at For Honor's high level gameplay

@Stouty said:
First of all they're practically a gamble because the amount of masturbation of your mouse required to pull it off will often result in a miss

You don't need to do any complicated shit though, they don't work like in chiv. Even then, if the parrybox wasn't autistically huge, you could bypass a parry by hitting someone on the shoulder instead of having to go all the way to the back. So you wouldn't need such a big drag. But because of how huge the parrybox is, the only way to get away with sidedrags now is to exaggerate them.

Secondly they reek off exploitation "just drag your mouse round my parry box so even if im parrying whilst facing the wep you still hit me brah"

"You can redirect your attack mid-air to change where you hit the opponent" is in no way a weird concept. It makes complete sense. Any negative connotation drags have is a result from Chivalry's bad implementation. Whenever I explain to someone who doesn't know about Mordhau or Chivalry, that you can do all these hard to execute attacks with just a basic click, it gets a good reaction. Because it's a fucking dope mechanic. The issue is when it is seen as an exploit, and that's the fault of the game for not explaining and embracing them.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 11 Sep '18
 Frise

@PhillyCheesesteak said:
If SA means South America, then the reason feints are hard to read should be pretty obvious - your ping.

You're not the smartest tool in the shed are ya

Knight 1269 3811
  • 11 Sep '18
 Frise

@vanguard said:
But now everybody is "parry botting", with a drag heavy meta it will happen the same, people will drag all the time because if you don't you are objectively playing wrong.

The difference is that to bypass a parry with a delay, you have to make a big drag, and bait them to parry early by acceling them regularly. This is where interaction comes into play. When people chamber botted, any braindead slight drag go you a free hit.

but I don't know any realiable way to deffend against it feels more like I'm having to wait for you to comit a mistake making these drags, than me activelly disarming them.

They're incredibly punishable though, if you already parried and you see the wessex coming you can run into it and most times it will force a miss; Those drags are impossible to do if you run towards it. If you follow the weapon with your camera, it's possible to track it and parry it accordingly, when I went to Miami I played with rob owner and naeleus, who both use a lot of waterfalls, and I found it completely possible to simply parry these drags. If you do parry it, the riposte is extremely hard to see coming, because of where you end up looking after doing these drags. Even worse if you get chambered. Plus, if you see it and run into it to force a miss, it's basically a free hit. This is what makes it so interesting, the multiple ways to interact with it, instead of just having to either read it or preemptively chamber.

With feints, I can read them and in a healthy gameplay situation, I would be able to punish it. My problem with feints is more related to weapon balancing than feints themselves.

Stabs are impossible to read reliably, they're borderline Chiv-tier. The only thing that keeps them from being full retarded are chambers, but that just makes it a boring mess of "chamber stabs or be forced to read ridiculous feints and morphs". And stabs are useless aside from feinting right now.

Yeah I'm all for sidestabs and morphs bypassing direction. I'm against fucking subtle drags, these shit on the gameplay imho. Footdrags that looks like a accel etc, these things are cancer man. I understand they add dynamic and skill etc, but they are so fucking cancerous to deal with, it isn't fun. I mean yeah, it is fun to execute these manuevers, but to be on the recieving end? Fucking bulllshit I say.

I have to just disagree here; Playing in NA against Naeleus was thrilling, he just played with overheads but had incredible aim, and I had to constatly keep his weapon in the middle of my screen or he would hit me on the foot, head, or the other side with a waterfall. Even when defending, I was constantly doing something. (This was in patch 16 when parries had a reasonable size). Whenever I receive a wessex or waterfall here in SA, I just get a feeling of getting outplayed, because I know that it's not an easy thing to do. Instead when you get feinted, the other dude just pressed a button and you failed to defend against a very powerful attack.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 11 Sep '18
 Frise

@vanguard said:
We already had a drag heavy meta

You mean when everybody was chamber botting so everyone just did subtle drags to avoid chambers?

Well ye that was shit but that was the fault of the chambers.

All these complex side-drags are fairly clear when on the receiving end once you know that they exist and how they work, it's just a matter of recognizing them as proper mechanics and explaining them to new players. If you're a new player in TF2 and you don't know what rocket jumping is, of course you're going to think "what the fuck that guy is cheating" when you see a soldier flying at 200km/h and oneshotting you with a shovel.

With match-making though, noobs aren't gonna see a lot of this at all, because it takes a huge amount of practice to pull these drags off, so they realistically will only experience them commonly once they've climbed through the ranks and are ready to learn the intricacies of the combat. Meanwhile, if feints are this powerful, any person with 20 hours in the game can do an attack that takes hundreds of hours of practice to read properly.

"But Frisé, noobs will encounter good players in frontline, and they will see wessex there and they will get angery!" It's gonna be very unlikely in a 64 players game mode, and even when it rarely happens, it's unlikely that a noob will think much of it. They're not visually shocking like reverse hits in Chivalry were to newcomers. They will just think "wtf I parried that" and move on.

Even if these drags end up becoming a huge issue, you can just nerf them by adding turncap or adjusting release animations to curve towards a horizontal strike again. You can still have sidestabs and morphs to bypass direction.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 11 Sep '18
 Frise

@Stouty said:
Dragging to get round a parry was always an unintended exploit, quotes from TB prove this.

How does this matter? TB were terrible developers that stumbled upon a great combat system and failed to make good use of it. Swing manipulation is a great mechanic, Tornbanner just made it shit because they made everything shit. The amount of freedom swing manipulation gives is great, the fact that with just a basic overhead you can do a delay, accel, waterfall, footdrag, and that all of this can be faked and turned into the other in reaction to the opponent is fucking great for a video game. They only feel like exploits to people who don't understand how it works, and that's an issue with the game not being clear about the mechanic.

Add to all that the ability to morph into a different attack and it just multiplies the amount of shit you can do with just 2 basic attacks. It allows freedom, creativity, it gives you something to practice to get constantly better at. It allows for varied playstyles. It's what makes the game special. Feints are a boring mechanic when they're the core of the combat.

If swing manipulation were as bad looking as ya'll are saying (nevermind how retarded people look right now trying to hide feints anyway...), you can restrict it to prevent the bad looking drags, and then make the parry less forgiving in order to allow this same freedom without over the top dragging.

When feints are the single most powerful tool, the game loses all of its depth. Make feints less powerful, just a little bit, so that mindlessly spamming them isn't effective, and you have to use them strategically. Then, since defense will inevitably get easier, make the parrybox less forgiving direction-wise. Skill ceiling remains high, with a more interesting meta. I know it's scary to have to learn a new meta, Stouty, but don't worry, I know you're a good player and will learn to adapt.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 11 Sep '18
 Frise

@Stouty said:
you could simplify any game like this "oh just play csgo for 500 hours and shoot enemy before he shoot you".

No, it's more like "oh u wanna get good at cs? ye don't bother with that headshot stuff just grab p90 and run around because it's the most effective strategy"

Knight 1269 3811
  • 10 Sep '18
 Frise

@PhillyCheesesteak said:
Most morphs are away from a stab. To chamber morph such a morph, it means you need to correctly chamber the side of the stab

Yes. Everybody does this. It's braindead easy. You're the same guy that said feints are weak and only work on bad players. You clearly don't have a good understanding of how the game plays out at high levels.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 9 Sep '18
 Frise

@PhillyCheesesteak said:
Morphing to match an opponent's morph is probably the least controversially skillful mechanic right now. Plenty of arguments about chambers but morphing to match their morph is awesome.

Chamber morphing is braindead easy and allows you to chamber attacks without having to read the morph. It's the opposite of skillful, it's a crutch.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 1
  • 9 Sep '18
 Frise

It just takes me saying "the overhead went over your head and hit your other side" for people to understand what a waterfall id when I do it to them, specially in mordhau since it doesn't curve around you for half a second like it does in chiv. Plus, these mechanics are not explained anywhere officially. If the concept of hitting different sides with the same attack was explained through official guides or in game tutorials, it would be easier to understand, and wouldn't feel like an exploit as it does to some people new to the game right now.

The difference between sidedrags being officially treated as a proper mechanic and them being a secret is what makes them feel like an exploit and not a proper mechanic.

We're talking about waterfalls and the like here, though. Simple sidestabs are in no way an unintuitive concept. Or having to look at the weapon to block an attack, which you don't need to do right now.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 9 Sep '18
 Frise

@Jax said:
You can expect the game to release in early 2019.

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Knight 1269 3811
  • 1
  • 9 Sep '18
 Frise

@GIRUGIRU said:
Feints are much healthier than swing manipulation as the main offensive tool in terms of visuals

You are delusional. Any new player can instantly understand the concept of getting sidestabbed or shoulder dragged. These are the harder things to do and aren't rewarded. People fake acceling while feinting and twirling around looks retarded, people are constantly trying to hide feints by spastically looking up and down.

constant drag/accel spam does not look good in comparison to morphs + feints.

I wonder if making direction baits more viable would reduce the amount of delay/accel spam... Hmm...

just because feints are very powerful dosen't mean the game becomes a 50/50

No, it just means it rewards an easier move much more than harder to execute moves. It's just backwards game design. You should be encouraged to and rewarded by learning new moves and being creative. But right now it's just not worth it when feints and delays are miles more effective and less risky than everything else. I'm not saying delays should be less powerful though. The game shouldn't reward braindead offense so much. You should have to use feints more strategically. And of course, then you can make parrying harder direction-wise or give us more offensive tools. A simple 100ms nerf to feints and fixing the transition into release for once would make the meta more interesting.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 9 Sep '18
 Frise

@wizardish said:
That clip is a morph, not a feint. I don't blame you though, it visually looks like a feint.

Huh, I could have sworn looking at it in slomo through VEGAS it looked like he went back to idle. Oh well. I think we all know that feint lockout is short enough that this happens sometimes when you go for a chamber.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 3
  • 9 Sep '18
 Frise

@Jax said:
Feints are still kinda risky right now due to the easier chamber

Not with any moderately fast or long weapon

Balancing feints through making chambers easier just leads to a messy gamble fest that just looks and feels dumb for everyone involved, anyway. Plus, it just makes 1vX even harder, because the 1 has to spend the few stamina he has in chambering to avoid overpowered feints, and will have to ftp out of the chamber 90% of the times because chambers don't have AP or hyper armour.

And then you can just get flinched like above (you see, I show a GIRU video to avoid any 'git gud' comments)

It's funny, you know, today I was playing and a brazilian asked me how to do that uppercut drag I like so much, and I thought him how to do it, took him like 5 minutes to get it, and then W'olframio said "all that work when you can just press Q". I laughed, but really I felt extremely disappointed in the game during that moment.

Please get Crush to watch this video, I'm not being condescending, it's a very informative video and a lot of parts apply perfectly to feints right now:
https://youtu.be/EitZRLt2G3w?t=21

Keep in mind, nerfing feints does not mean lowering the skill ceiling. The skill ceiling can be raised back up through other, better ways, that also increase the offensive skill ceiling, not just the defensive one. I remember earlier in the alpha when feints were weaker and there were specific times where they were useful, you had to be thoughtful of when to use them, and not just mindlessly use them in every fight. You know there's something wrong with the skill/power balance when the 'top player', GIRU, wins constantly by just spamming feints and basic delay drags.

P90 in CSGO, Pyro in TF2, Teemo in League of Legends. Imagine if these were the most effective strategies in their respective games. That would be bad game design, wouldn't it.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 8 Sep '18
 Frise

You basically got it spot on; it's not a skill cap issue, it's a game design/mechanics balance issue.

For the easiest tool to execute to be the most effective and prominent staple of every high level engagement is bad game design, and I think anyone will agree with this statement.

So then why insist on making feints so powerful? They used to be a resource that you had to use strategically, now they're your go to button for getting hits.

Crush insists that making the parrybox smaller will make it harder to parry stuff in 1vX. But that would balance out if feints weren't so braindead powerful.

Having defense be divided more equally amongst timing and direction, and offense requiring skill and rewarding hard to execute attacks is the right way to balance mechanics. No sense in having all the defense skill be feint reading and having all the offense skill be feinting.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 1
  • 7 Sep '18
 Frise

Raw boner, wizardish, bob sapp, giru, stouty. Anyone playing pugs or scrims. Everyone of them will you that what you said about feints being only effective against bad players is objectively untrue. It's not about disagreeing with me or what makes the game fun, it's about you having no idea what goes on in high level play.

And the chiv thing is untrue, dragging never guaranteed you a hit, it was always parryable. Not a matter of opinion, just a matter of understanding how the combat works.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 7 Sep '18
 Frise

Doesn't surprise me that Stouty describes swing manipulation as braindead when all he does in his montages is spam overhead foot delays.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 7 Sep '18
 Frise

I just don't get why you would want the one mechanic that is easiest to perform to be the most powerful and important thing. It's just a boring mechanic when it's the one thing that works the most. Sidestabs are still getting nerfed to oblivion every patch when they are more intuitive, better looking, more interactive, and simply a more interesting mechanic. My guess is you just don't want to put effort into learning how to play a different meta than chiv's.

Feints are a boring mechanic compared to any kind of swing manipulation. They bring a shitload of problems to the game all the time. New players dislike them. They award shitty players with free hits against any player that doesn't have at least 500 hours in the game or comes from Chivalry.

Pressing Q shouldn't be the hardest thing in the game to defend against. That's common sense. It's not about balance, it's about the game being interesting and having proper risk/reward ratios.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 7 Sep '18
 Frise

@Stouty said:
Drags are "glorious" apparantly but are just as braindead as feinting and looks terrible to normies.

Delay drags are quite braindead but still require more skill to perform than feints, and you can force a parry on them, the other dude has to adjust their aim to your footwork. It's interactive. It's a better mechanic. And come on bro they don't look bad anymore, even the most extreme drags look quite natural (well maybe not some halberd lmb delays). I'm talking about sidedrags anyway. Sidestabs are useless right now and are in every way a better offensive mechanic for the game. You should have to aim upwards to parry overheads; Overhead morph into downwards stab should be a thing that worked. It's something that any braindead kid can understand. "oh u aim ur attacks and the opponent has to follow ur sword ok". "hue frise u wanna bring oh footdrags back idiot" you can make direction a thing without buffing footdrags to hell if you have half a brain.

In chiv as a skilled player...

Bruh this is Mordhau

Drags and morphs can't really be punished consistently and therefore demand your full attention for the duration of the swing which IS oppressive in 1vx.

You can force a parry on delays though, and if you see the delay coming you can dodge it and get an opening. The delayer has to perform good swing manipulation in order to not telegraph the attack and let you do this. Meanwhile if they just feint/morph you, you need to either hard read it or gamble it, and they just pressed a button and maybe moved around to scare u.

Crippled thinks drags are high skill ok how? Literally just as braindead as feints

They require more skill to perform than feints. Common sense would indicate that this should make them more powerful. You're only thinking about delays, though. You probably haven't done a proper sidedrag in your life hahaha Stouty more like Shity

Predator feints arent turn based because they offer the enemy the opportunity to seize your turn

After they took their turn to hard read it like a little bitch or gamble.

Guys let's all pledge to be more intelligent in the future

Says the guy that spams overheads like a braindead caveman hahaha bruh ever heard of uppercuts