Mordhau
 Humble Staff
Knight
  • Likes received 7346
  • Date joined 23 Jul '16
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Knight 5394 7346

@SWSeriousMike said:

@Humble Staff said:
Awesome! I hope you have fun!
I personally love practising and sparring with soft weapons, they are very underrated. They bring new interesting angles and dynamics to fighting.
People think they need a lot of skill to learn and ten times more to apply in combat, but from my experience, if you stick to basics you can start using and applying them fairly soon, especially if you have practice implements that are safe for you and people you may practice with.

When I trained with soft knives I had trouble parrying reliably because the weapon would just give way. Admittedly they were of the DIY kind and maybe not optimal - but if they had been harder and stiffer they could have hurt eyes and throat.

How is your experience with that? Do you only use soft materials for flail heads which you wouldn't use for parries anyway? Or do you combine padded weapons with protective gear?

Oh, with soft weapons i meant articulated weapons like nunchuks, flails, three section staves, rope dart/meteor hammer, etc.
But regarding to sparring safety, my rule of thumb is that an optimal armed sparring set up has a combination of weapons, rules and protective gear that allow for safe enough yet realistic experience.
In my school we practice with homemade padded weapons combined with regular and a bit of homemade hand to hand protective gear (since we can't afford hig quality practice weapons nor protective gear for weapon sparring) and we always put emphasis on self control. It's not perfect but it's good enough.
Our weapons are rigid enough to defend in realistic ways most of the time and allow us to hit each other using about 80% force (without gear) without leaving more than a bruise or a bump. When you combine this with self control and protective gear we can have almost full contact sparring without anyone getting hurt.
And yes, we wear face protection, especially when we use thrusting weapons.

Knight 5394 7346

It is what your heart believes it to be.

Knight 5394 7346

@CazzyVR said:

@Humble Staff said:

@CazzyVR said:

@Humble Staff said:

@CazzyVR said:
You have reminded me of the one weapon I hope never gets added. The Flail. It is in my honest opinion the most over-appreciated and impractical Medieval Weapon

That's weird, i've hardly seen them depicted anywhere, most of the time is in very unrealistic ways like that one ridiculous flail from one of the Nazghuls in LotR.
I can only think of For Shit uh i mean For honor and Battle Brothers. In Battle Brothers (awesome game btw, i can't recomend it enough) it's just another weapon type with its own pros and cons, blends gameplay and real life very well.
Btw have you ever handled a flail irl may i ask? because i have and they are not nearly as impractical and dangerous to yourself as people make it out to be.

Yah those are the ones I'm talking about. Movies like those made the... for lack of better term, "Ill-Informed Idiots"... to believe the Flail was so common. Which makes me personally wonder, they went through tones of pains on the Historical Accuracy (to a point) on most things that why give the Nazguls a Flail other then "Lol looks cool"?

Yea i have seen that video, it's probably the only video of Shad's entire channel that i didn't give a like because i think he overstates the disadvantages of a flail and makes it factually look like a bad weapon.
The problem i see with most youtubers/influencers, martial art practitioners and medieval enthusiasts when talking about flails is the extreme lack of experience around the damn thing. They never used one, never trained with one and/or have only seen them -most often badly represented- in popular media. There's simply an enourmous lack of testing and exposure to the weapon.
The flail is just a weapon like any other, has pros and cons. Yes the flexible nature can be a danger to the user IF the user is untrained. That can be overcome easily and quickly by basic training and practice.

This one is a video of someone who's not very good a using the flail, it's probably one of the first times he is using the weapon. You see him use it kinda like a nunchuk, making it dart from a static position and making it stop suddenly. Especially in horizontal, you can clearly see how it would whip him in the left side of his body many times through the video. And due to the lack of familiarity with the weapon he can't use the shield in conjuction with it. The only good exchange he does is the last one, where he closes the distance and keeps himself covered from the longsword with the shield while whiping the oponent with the flail and following through.

Those two are videos of someone with a good handling of the flail, he keeps it moving in circular motions almost all the time, going along with the momentum. You can even see the flail wielder giving it good use even in very close range, clinching range even, where shad suposed it would be too dangerous to wield.
In the entirety of both sparring videos, he only slightly whips himself on a foot once (near the end of the second video). Something that can be ignored if wearing any degree of armor.

Never looked at it that way, I actually contacted my Local HEMA Instructor and asked if I could poke his brain and try them out myself so hopefully this weekend I can actually have some Hands on experience with it. I'm always interested in this and it's nice to see I was misinformed about the Flail and glad you provided different sources. I will share my experiences with the flail come saturday

Awesome! I hope you have fun!
I personally love practising and sparring with soft weapons, they are very underrated. They bring new interesting angles and dynamics to fighting.
People think they need a lot of skill to learn and ten times more to apply in combat, but from my experience, if you stick to basics you can start using and applying them fairly soon, especially if you have practice implements that are safe for you and people you may practice with.

Knight 5394 7346

The last two yes, they do have actual hooks, the first one does not.
Also I think those two are not war scythes anymore, one of them would basically be a hafted sickle and the other some variant of the billhook whose name I can't exactly remember rn.

Knight 5394 7346

Having a cutting ready weapon is needed to practice test cutting though. As Kashi said there are even tournaments about it. It's a whole skill on its own inside the weapon based martial arts umbrella.
Test cutting also complements you as a fighter, you need to know how to cut to have any real validity in your fighting skills, there's plenty of people from the armed fighting community that only spar with blunts and other practice replicas and if you give them a sharp, they suck at cutting. Ergo, if they were to spar/fight with sharps (something that obviously no one with more than 2 neurons does), they would deliver ineffective attacks.
You wouldn't tell an archer "nah man, that 90 pound shit you got there is a dangerous weapon, here, use this walmart toy to keep improving and practice for the tournament that's coming in a few months"

With "messing around" Kashi probably meant something like "let's see how many bottles in a row can I cleanly cut through" or other stuff that he could use to test his own cutting skills. He most probably didn't mean "Okay Bob hold this carrot with your mouth, let me show you this sick party trick"

Knight 5394 7346

For wathever it's worth, yes, I liked this patch.
Castello and Mountain Peak's expansion are just beautifull esthetically. If Feitoria was good then they outdone themselves with Castello.
These maps make me feel like I was in chivalry again. As to how balanced they are, I'll have to keep playing to have a solid opinion.
The balance changes to the weaponry are very welcome and the point system overhaul looks very promising.
While I'm obviously glad they put back hit stop on friendlies and finally made the engineer ballista give assist to engineers when used by someone else, I can't wrap my head around why they can't make those little to 0 work, obvious quality of life changes that people have been asking for months, sooner. They could drop them in hot fixes or smaller patches with a bunch of them.
I'm still surprised they didn't give us a keybinding option for shield wall mode for example, which should have been added either with or soon after the feature was introduced to the game. Yet here we are.

Knight 5394 7346

I'll take that like as
"yes I liked it very much, btw I was an undercover dev all along and I will be making sure both flails are ready for next patch"

Knight 5394 7346

ohhh so sad, you can't have the scythe on the loadout screen

Knight 5394 7346

Yea that's what i came up with, i'm glad it came across smoothly!
Do you like it? would you add or remove something?

Knight 5394 7346

@CazzyVR said:

@Humble Staff said:

@CazzyVR said:
You have reminded me of the one weapon I hope never gets added. The Flail. It is in my honest opinion the most over-appreciated and impractical Medieval Weapon

That's weird, i've hardly seen them depicted anywhere, most of the time is in very unrealistic ways like that one ridiculous flail from one of the Nazghuls in LotR.
I can only think of For Shit uh i mean For honor and Battle Brothers. In Battle Brothers (awesome game btw, i can't recomend it enough) it's just another weapon type with its own pros and cons, blends gameplay and real life very well.
Btw have you ever handled a flail irl may i ask? because i have and they are not nearly as impractical and dangerous to yourself as people make it out to be.

Yah those are the ones I'm talking about. Movies like those made the... for lack of better term, "Ill-Informed Idiots"... to believe the Flail was so common. Which makes me personally wonder, they went through tones of pains on the Historical Accuracy (to a point) on most things that why give the Nazguls a Flail other then "Lol looks cool"?

Yea i have seen that video, it's probably the only video of Shad's entire channel that i didn't give a like because i think he overstates the disadvantages of a flail and makes it factually look like a bad weapon.
The problem i see with most youtubers/influencers, martial art practitioners and medieval enthusiasts when talking about flails is the extreme lack of experience around the damn thing. They never used one, never trained with one and/or have only seen them -most often badly represented- in popular media. There's simply an enourmous lack of testing and exposure to the weapon.
The flail is just a weapon like any other, has pros and cons. Yes the flexible nature can be a danger to the user IF the user is untrained. That can be overcome easily and quickly by basic training and practice.

This one is a video of someone who's not very good a using the flail, it's probably one of the first times he is using the weapon. You see him use it kinda like a nunchuk, making it dart from a static position and making it stop suddenly. Especially in horizontal, you can clearly see how it would whip him in the left side of his body many times through the video. And due to the lack of familiarity with the weapon he can't use the shield in conjuction with it. The only good exchange he does is the last one, where he closes the distance and keeps himself covered from the longsword with the shield while whiping the oponent with the flail and following through.

Those two are videos of someone with a good handling of the flail, he keeps it moving in circular motions almost all the time, going along with the momentum. You can even see the flail wielder giving it good use even in very close range, clinching range even, where shad suposed it would be too dangerous to wield.
In the entirety of both sparring videos, he only slightly whips himself on a foot once (near the end of the second video). Something that can be ignored if wearing any degree of armor.

Knight 5394 7346

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
I don't care about realism, they're going to add women to the game, kitchen knives 3 shot plate armor, arrows fly extremely slow and horses can get pushed by infantry...

I just want flails since everyone else gets to meme with cleaver or maul or bloodlust on their anime goddess build.

Then feel free to go like my recent post about them that I did while giving my meat a break from Pornhub premium!
It doesn't guarantee that the devs will look at the post and would consider any of my suggestions but It would patch my fragile self esteem and maybe spare me an appointment with my therapist! :)

Knight 5394 7346

Hmmm, yea idk about he dismounting ability, even the more curved ones don't have an actual hook like the Bill does.
They came about pretty late in history but if they are sneaked in, I can see this weapon as a bardiche skin set. Especially those with the thicker head and a small spike.
After all, it's a nasty slash oriented polearm with below average thrust.

Knight 5394 7346

I wouldn't mind chat font turning into comic sans

Knight 5394 7346

@TombstoneJack said:

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
FLAIILLLSSSSSSSSSSS

flails when

when crossroads is finished

oof

Knight 5394 7346

I have autist

Knight 5394 7346

@TheKingInTheNorth said:

@Humble Staff said:

@GhostHippie said:
There was no such thing as a medieval maul, that's just an over glorified sledgehammer, which is already in the game, and makes me wonder why didn't they just use the sledgehammer as the one shot headshot meme weapon instead of making the maul in the first place

Actually, the base skin for the maul comes from archeological finding, you can see it at the left (number 16). The key difference between the tool and the weapon is that the weapon version has a hollow head. The other skins in the game (except the mjolnir) are based on designs of regular war hammers (number 4 and 9), but they got enlarged, and the spikes on top and picks on the opposite side removed or lessened.

It was never found to be used on the battlefield, and pretty sure that's a polearm head not a maul.

Where's the proof of that?
Plus the lack of evidence of something isn't evidence of it not existing. If it's the head of a polearm, it's obvious from where it took inspiration and it's not a stretch to think from where it came and that some conscripts may have used shorter versions of it at some point. Like with every other weapon, there most probably were versions of varying lenght. As you may well know, there's also lots of stuff related to warfare that haven't survived until this days, like peasant/lesser quality armor and weapons. Some of the scarce stuff that people have found about that are really fascinating and weird.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=knyght+errant+peasant+armor

Both Lindy videos are time stamped, and both are about him comentaing on museum and archeological findings so he doesn't have much room to talk out of his ass like he sometimes do.
In the last one he is talking about two clubs found in a bronze age battle, one of them looks like a wooden mallet. Is it too much of a stretch that someone some day was conscripted and was like "welp, that old wooden mallet could do me some service now"? then he could have afforded to encase it in metal like people used to do with qstaff tips or clubs that got metal rings or spikes added. Or well, like i said, someone could have made a hollow headed one, or just a smaller head.

Anyway yea, we all agree in that a maul with a solid head of the size depicted in Mordhau probably never saw battle, other than as an improvised weapon.

Knight 5394 7346

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Longsword should require a head shot or stabs for 3htk T3.

this

Knight 5394 7346

Yea but they where pretty retarded, somewhere in the middle of good and bad, with weird tracers. They had no real place compared to the rest of the weapons of the game. Also they had to use shields which is reasonable, except for the fact that shields in chiv were pretty bad too.

Knight 5394 7346

Alright so with the new point system finally here, i'm getting back at sperging about weapon suggestions.
But first and foremost: i don't get why they didn't give the billhook the ability to make horses rear if it stabs one upfront, like many other polearms were given. This trait would make the most sense in the billhook as it is the specialized anti cavalry weapon of the game ¿wouldn't it?. wtf bruh.
Give that mechanic to the billhook too.

Now onto the sperging.
First i guess i should give an estimation of where my previous suggestions would land:
Heavy quarterstaff: I envisioned this to be a 3 point weapon, so in the new system i think it would fall in 5 to 7 points around axe, arming sword and falchion.
Brandistock: This one was 6 points, so now could be 17 to 18 points right there with estoc and poleaxe.
Glaive: I made this one worth 7 points, since i pictured the glaive/partisan/swordstaff as a middleground in between the billhook (stab wise) and a bardiche (swing wise) but still being more powerfull overall than the brandy so it's closer to the bardiche (8 points back then). It could land in between 20 and 23 points.

Now onto the proper sperging, the first weapon i want to discuss is

The flail (again...)

Flail.jpeg
In the fires of creation lay your potential dreams

We know this thing will be coming but we don't know how it will work. Everytime it's brought up to debate people suggest weird mechanics like unique tracers, spinning to gather momentum and damage and other wonky stuff.
I think it doesn't need any of this to be a special and unique weapon, those mechanics not only would add unecesary developement time but also posibly become a hell to balance.
I have a series of suggestions that i think make for a compromise in between the properties this weapon has in real life and gameplay, just using the weapon stats and basic core mechanics of the game:

  • No hitstop: As a flexible weapon, the flail's head is separated from the section that's being handled and that grants it a few unique physical properties. It can wrap around stuff and thus hit around parries or blocks, and you can follow through easier than with a regular weapon. This is because since the head is conected to a chain, when you hit with something the head stops moving but you can keep the swing going and the chain will pull the head and make it follow.
    And this is what i'm interested in, rather than trying to do a wonky wrap around parry/blocks mechanic and mess with tracers and what not, we can just make flails the only type of blunt weapon that has no hitstop. Maybe you could give it a good stamina drain against shields like axes currently do in game, to somewhat represent the block bypassing property.
  • Low stamina drain: Flails are difficult to defend against given what i explained above but when you actually manage to parry or block a swing from it, the hit is not as heavy as one would expect. With a propper attack from a regular hafted weapon when you hit something you can put the weight of your body into the blow. With a flail this is not posible due to the chain, you only put the weight of the head into the strikes and the energy transfer is lost within the chain, this is the trade-off articulated weapons make in exchange for their flexibility. So in game, when people parry you they wont suffer much stamina loss, making the flail bad at the stamina game.
  • Shit stamina drain negation: It's pretty obvious that a one handed flail has poor defensive capabilities, it's a purely offensive weapon, but i don't think we need to obligate players to equip a shield alongside it. Just give it a shitty stamina drain negation value, as or even shittier than dagger, so if people don't equip a shield they will be unarmed and screwed very quickly. That is unless they chamber the incoming attacks. I know it will look weird but if a flail user gets his shield disarmed he could have a last fighting chance if he is good at chambering. This would also fit with the identity of the weapon since its only real defense would be attacking, like irl.
  • Very weak stab: You can't really thrust with a flail, not in a conventional way. The best you can hope for is launching the shaft forward and making the head follow and make an arc, turning the attack into a swing of sorts.
    Flails stabs in game should be pretty shit, you just ram the top of the shaft on your enemy. And flails could be the only type of weapon that have a stab shorter than their swings, to further complement their uniquness and identity.

So with this we have a purely swing centric blunt weapon (good at fighting armor) that's also good at taking on multiple people, unlike the rest of blunt weapons that have hitstop. Shield is mandatory because the flail by itself is shit at the stamina game, that is unless you are memeing around or a melee god. If you get your shield disarmed all left to do is evade or attack, as chambers will be your most reliable defense. This weapon will rely on mixing accels, drags, target switching and feints, staming out the oponent is not a good choice and morphs would be situational given the crappy stab.

For everything else i'd take the mace as a reference, including the alt mode (FLYING FLAIL). But since the flail has no hitstop it shouldn't have the crazy raw damage nor two shot T2 and T3 like the mace to not be op af.

Strikes
----T0 - T1 - T2 - T3
HS 90 - 75 - 50 - 45
CS 53 - 52 - 51 - 40
LS 52 - 50 - 40 - 30

Thrusts
crap.jpg

As you can see the flail will not one shot anything, not even naked head. In exchange it will deal lots of damage to anyone in its path, two shotting everything except for plate which will take 3HTK both to the head, the torso or a mixup of them. It trades raw power for multiple target damage.
I would make this weapon cost 11 to 13 points, as it would be nothing but one of the top one handers of the game alongside the mace, the rapier and the bastard sword.
I think this is a good way to have a weapon that's good at fighting both armor and multiple people without making it too powerfull for a one hander nor making it too costly, that should be reserved for

The Poleflail

Poleflail.jpg
In the fires of creation there should also lay this dream

This one should be a straight upgrade from the one handed flail posibly in every aspect except for speed, one of the best weapons in the game, landing in no less than 20 points. It will wreck armor, will have no hitstop and will have standard stamina drain and stamina drain negation values for a two hander. The only weakness it would retain from its little brother would be the short (compared to the swing) and somewhat weak stab.
This time i apply the same concept and take the evening star as a reference:

Strike
----T0 - T1 - T2 - T3
HS 100 - 90 - 70 - 55
CS 62 - 59 - 57 - 50
LS 52 - 50 - 47 - 45

Thrust
bird poop.jpg
(cattering to the bird fans...)

Once again, this two handed flail is trading the raw power for area damage.

This is all for now, i'll be back with more weapon autism one of these days.
You can thank Red Lobster Inc. and the quarantine for this post!

Knight 5394 7346

@CazzyVR said:
You have reminded me of the one weapon I hope never gets added. The Flail. It is in my honest opinion the most over-appreciated and impractical Medieval Weapon

That's weird, i've hardly seen them depicted anywhere, most of the time is in very unrealistic ways like that one ridiculous flail from one of the Nazghuls in LotR.
I can only think of For Shit uh i mean For honor and Battle Brothers. In Battle Brothers (awesome game btw, i can't recomend it enough) it's just another weapon type with its own pros and cons, blends gameplay and real life very well.
Btw have you ever handled a flail irl may i ask? because i have and they are not nearly as impractical and dangerous to yourself as people make it out to be.