Mordhau
 rob_owner
Knight
  • Likes received 3386
  • Date joined 25 Oct '15
  • Last seen 31 Jul '19

Private Message

Knight 528 3386
  • 9 Jul '19
 rob_owner

im going to crawl into your brain lazy and eat my way out then grab the entire sun and put it inside of your face all while painting my body in gravy

Knight 528 3386
  • 1 Feb '19
 rob_owner

wheres my golden teeth

Knight 528 3386
  • 1
  • 31 Jan '19
 rob_owner

you must REALLY think the rayman series is retarded, not only are his hands armless but his feet are legless!!!! there is NOTHING there!!! its just floating hands and FEET!!!!!!!!

and i just checked and his head is neckless!!!! i bet he could swap each of these body parts on a whim, or smell his own butt

Knight 528 3386
  • 24 Jan '19
 rob_owner

you say hay i dont like this
people say its not problem
people say it is
seems inconsequential to me for most part, might inconvenience me, might give me free hit when i push button after performing a slight waltz. its not like the change is going to be what holds the game together, heralding a new epoch, so it seems inconsequential to me. maybe im wrong. maybe it will improve the game so hard. would be fun to mod stuff in to test.
you seem a bit dramatic.
i await dev decree with apathy.

Knight 528 3386
  • 5
  • 23 Jan '19
 rob_owner

@idiotgod said:
If this combat system works better by going against basic combat intuition, then the combat system is just poorly designed. It literally punishes you for expecting it to follow some logical set of rules.

@rob_owner said:
instead of saying the word intuitive, use its definition.

Okay Roberto.

let me take a few swings at you with a baseball bat.
Let me know when it's safer to attack at me, when I am standing there with it waiting for you to attack, or immediately after I take a swing and fucking miss you like an idiotgod.

If you follow your intuition, you might survive. But judging from your last few responses, maybe not?

i think i value training over intuition. Accept the rules of whatever fighting environment, so it doesnt matter what scenario you give. I only tell you how it is for this game, you can give bias scenarios all you want, i could fucking post this video:

and it would mean as much as the example you gave and the question you asked

if they make this specific change then so be it, if they dont then so be it, it would just be a rule change for the combat and then you'd have to Learn To Play with the new feature in mind, although i think its kinda an odd thing to fixate over, im sure you could find other things that do more harm to your firm intuition

Knight 528 3386
  • 23 Jan '19
 rob_owner

instead of saying the word intuitive, use its definition.

that sentence makes it sound like you cant punish mistakes, a brazen exaggeration.

You dont like the ways you can punish a miss now, you want the way you want to be the way you punish this specific case.

Why stop here.

If someone feints you, and you read it, and you go to punish, they can parry. Do you think that is an oversight? Why not put a lockout in that case?

There is no default intuitiveness. The game has its rules. Some people think morph matching was intuitive, what I mean by that is they did it on instinct. I saw shroud attempt it a few times.

I thought the length of my blade would play a role in stab chambering so I could counter stab drags with a long zwei because of how the stab animations look. I thought that was intuitive. I never considered this combo feint thing to be intuitive because of the rules I accepted. The attack, recovery, combo, combo feint, etc. I accepted the mechanics. What i'd want is for recovery to be super obvious so you can read if you should do a mixup or just hit them, I would prefer that over your thing. Easily being able to tell if someone inputted a combo.

Knight 528 3386
  • 23 Jan '19
 rob_owner

your language is presumptuous and disjointed

i told you to go make a thread about what you think because you have a different concern than the topic of this thread so youre out of place. you take issue more with the nature of the game than this detail

retarded probably isnt the goal

gameplay could improve, it always can.

i dont know how i've convinced you im omniscient, but if i were then it would make no sense to put it to the test because i would be all knowing, so i wouldnt need to put it to the test because i would know. I dont know why you said that, which i guess means im not omniscient, because otherwise i would know.

I also dont get where you got someone saying this was the only way, you should quote that, i think i missed it.

I explain how the game works, thats pretty much it

devs have changed harder shit than some forced lockout during combo feint, so if im to assume anything, its the outcome of this particular change is not worth its effort. Assuming some friendship seems a bit paranoid. In general you seem pessimistic and cynical and im sorry you feel the way you do, I hope you feel better soon. Go ahead and make a thread, might be useful to engage in discourse about a larger facet of the game, who knows, not me because im not omniscient.

Knight 528 3386
  • 23 Jan '19
 rob_owner

@idiotgod said:

@rob_owner said:

@idiotgod said:

@Frise said:
Does it make sense design-wise? Absolutely no, those were blatant misses. It's ridiculous that they get to parry out of them so easily.

I agree. Basic logic would dictate that the moments depicted in the clip are the perfect moments to strike.

@rob_owner said:
Morph, pretty much guarantees you a free hit right now unless they gamble you or you let them read you by morphing early. If you morph in those clips its extremely likely you would have hit them. Im not too big a fan of morphs countering parry in general so much but eh its how it is right now. These specific cases are how most people get hits off I imagine, run around a teamfight morphing or acceling people who were fighting other people (with stab of course).

Given the timings, a morph is just totally unintuitive. Why can't you land a hit using only spatial awareness? Why does it always have to devolve into "haha I made you flinch" How is that not the definition of "too straight forward, bland, predictable."?

Well if you consider what you just said, if you were able to land a hit using -only- spatial awareness, it sounds a lot more straight forward, bland, and predictable than the list of shit i spewed at you because its one thing you'd be using to get a free hit, instead of the setup for it.

Right now morph or feint is all you can do to get a hit. That's it. If you don't fool them with a morph or a feint you aren't getting a hit, there is nothing else you can do when it comes down to it. It fucking sucks. Why are you defending such a bad system as if it was actually designed to work like it somehow almost does?

Also no clue what youre goin on about basic logic, you got a fuckin textbook about this game tucked away somewhere?

What are you slow? I figured it was so basic I didn't have to explain it. If your arms are below your waist, in recovery, how did you block an attack above your head? It intuitively looks like the enemy is vulnerable when they can still parry. How is this good game design?

If they can move their arms fast enough to block in like 0.01 seconds from recovery then why didn't they just swing their sword that fast in the first place? The physics of the basics of the combat system are fucked.


You can do any of the mechanics that can bypass parry: Morph, feint, drag, accel, morph feint, miss so teammate hit, hit around parry, i guess kick. You can do a mixup. I am not a fan of the morph one, me already explain why. This is repeating what I already typed but it not so many word now. You understand? That only preference i express, yes? I no defend anything, i only explain how game work, and I express skeptical point of view on idea of extra lockout window of feint then parry, could cause complications. Could be more trouble than worth.


A question that has plagued thinkers throughout all time. If your arms are below your waist, in recovery, how did you block an attack above your head? What happens when an unstoppable force meets and immovable object?
This game is not real life, it can look rough I guess but this frise-proposed mechanic does nothing to qualify your esteem wisdom in physics.

When someone is staring at you, they look vulnerable, because they are staring at you, face in your face, chest out, their weapon in idle means nothing in terms of defense. If they block you last second, their arms will move to parry position faster than your eyes can read this sentence slowpoke, if you have any shred of consistency in that noggin of yours then you'd agree. Forget about from recovery, what about from idle? Why not all attack as fast as parry if that how fast man can move arm?!? You want to know if im slow? you should see how fast i can combo feint to parry. Why dont you make a thread pointing out this pervasive issue, this strange anomaly that exists beyond this thread's scope, it seems this thread is about a small detail having to do with combo feint recovery, and what you take issue with is a larger whole. Somethin about parry, feint to parry, morph feint to parry, drew parry, combo feint to parry, all about the parries. Make a mordhau physics thread. You have bigger fish to fry.

Knight 528 3386
  • 2
  • 23 Jan '19
 rob_owner

It would not override it because in this scenario i made the person combo after hitting someone, not parry right after hitting them during recovery. So it would be, as i wrote in that quote you quoted, a combo-feint-to-parry. It would be a particular case where the timings force you to trade damage and its up to you whether or not you think thats healthy for the game or if you think you'd want to make a special case for this situation.

Knight 528 3386
  • 1
  • 23 Jan '19
 rob_owner

If you didnt propose a change, it would be a l2p issue, it would be like "whiff has weak punish" answers would be "you are punishing wrong you have to do it like this to do better!" "oh okay thank you i'll do that" "be careful sometimes they wont even combo and if you didnt do a mixup you would have hit them anyways!" "oh thanks i'll be sure to keep that in mind!" "i love you" "I love you too"

i didnt talk about your change, i just talked about how things are. Its a change you'd have to consider all the implications of, things like hitting someone, comboing, wanting to cftp to not get hit by someone in a 1vX, not being able to because of the forced combo no-parry-after-feint-recovery. You'd need to make an exception where you can do it if you land a hit, and im sure there are other variables im not thinking of. I have no preference so I didnt talk about it really, would lead to a slightly different game, and whether or not it would be a funner game would take dedicated foresight or actual testing.

Some serious introspection, like how effective would this new whiffer-mindgame be?? Why even risk it if youre probably just gonna get hit if you mess up for a non-guarantee reward of what? Hitting him instead because HE whiffed? Whiffer warz? Everyones swatting from far away, whiffhau, whiffer playstyle. Its a different game preference i reckon, not a detail i toiled around in my head for very long so i dont rightly care, im indifferent about this particular detail, up to the devs i reckon. Its marko's vision and all that.

Maybe you can sneak it into next build to test or maybe they can internal test it against bots and probably conclude that it takes away control or something and sure sometimes you feel like you messed up but there are ugly gross cases where you feel the game cheated you more than anything else, like when youre in release about to hit an enemy but your teammate off-screen brandishing a faster weapon feeds him a riposte so when you hit him you cant parry the hit trade.

Knight 528 3386
  • 23 Jan '19
 rob_owner

@idiotgod said:

@Frise said:
Does it make sense design-wise? Absolutely no, those were blatant misses. It's ridiculous that they get to parry out of them so easily.

I agree. Basic logic would dictate that the moments depicted in the clip are the perfect moments to strike.

@rob_owner said:
Morph, pretty much guarantees you a free hit right now unless they gamble you or you let them read you by morphing early. If you morph in those clips its extremely likely you would have hit them. Im not too big a fan of morphs countering parry in general so much but eh its how it is right now. These specific cases are how most people get hits off I imagine, run around a teamfight morphing or acceling people who were fighting other people (with stab of course).

Given the timings, a morph is just totally unintuitive. Why can't you land a hit using only spatial awareness? Why does it always have to devolve into "haha I made you flinch" How is that not the definition of "too straight forward, bland, predictable."?

Well if you consider what you just said, if you were able to land a hit using -only- spatial awareness, it sounds a lot more straight forward, bland, and predictable than the list of shit i spewed at you because its one thing you'd be using to get a free hit, instead of the setup for it. Using spatial awareness, you can matrix, and perform a mixup, inset mixup here. The only times i think an issue exists is when a mixup cant be countered and its why i ranted about morphs because its easy to dip your stab into someone's player model and morph out of it during their ftp window. Reading it is hard, they either have to let you read or you predict. Not a fan of that.

Also no clue what youre goin on about basic logic, you got a fuckin textbook about this game tucked away somewhere? Pass some notes from Professor Marko's class, Chapter 1.1 Basic Logic intro to Timings. Basic logic of what? Physics? Real life? Computers? Because if its of the game, thats nonsense. Theres a feint window, a combo feint window, when you feint either one you can immediately parry, so basically you can parry during feint recovery. Thats the basic logic. If they change that at all, then whatever they change it to will be the base logic of the game, unless you are literally Mordhau.

Knight 528 3386
  • 1
  • 22 Jan '19
 rob_owner

A game of this nature is at its best when there are counters to counters, doing one thing can be countered and the counter to that counter can be countered. If thats not the case then the combat can get too straight forward, bland, predictable.

These people immediately cftp, they do it hilariously early. The combo feint window is very itsy bitsy right now. A fun thing to do is wait until they are out of the timing to combo feint. Time your attack so it hits them during that window, and only good fortune will alow them to clash you so they avoid damage or you might miss. Fun and hard to do because of its guarantee that you will land damage, you will only mess up if you are out of practice or potentially unlucky. Starting from that counter to whiff, i'll list off all the other things you can do.

They whiff, then get all up in your grill, you can see the outcome of their whiff and preemptively strike them. They can see the outcome of your punish and so during their combo, they feint and parry. The punish you perform may be a mixup, and thats usually where the game can be most interesting, mixups and counters to mixups, so heres all the mixups i can think of right now.

They get all up in your shit after a whiff in those clips, you can kick them. They are stam drained not only because of a miss, but now because of a kick, they lose health, if they parry you again then they lose more stam and you can perform another mixup with your initiative assuming you were not already an inch away from death on health and stam and they were full on everything. Also they cant CFTP a kick.

Attack, it will drain their stam, thats what you do in those clips, doesnt really counter CFTP like kick or timing abuse. Pretty low tier counter to whiffing depending on weapon stam stats but if you do other mixups then it helps you remain unpredictable so its only low tier of its literally all you do.

Morph, pretty much guarantees you a free hit right now unless they gamble you or you let them read you by morphing early. If you morph in those clips its extremely likely you would have hit them. Im not too big a fan of morphs countering parry in general so much but eh its how it is right now. These specific cases are how most people get hits off I imagine, run around a teamfight morphing or acceling people who were fighting other people (with stab of course).

Feint, parry recovery is pretty huge, they would only double parry you if they panic parry and you maxed out feint window and also picked your nose during feint. They can only double parry you if a drag would have bypassed their parry, or a morph.

Morph-feint, a little unnecessary but i guess you could do it.

Drag, would only really work on strikes and it sort of depends on your weapon, just delay, those nerds in those clips are parrying super duper early

Miss on purpose, mostly useful in a teamfight but it might give you a freehit in a 1v1 in some funny way probably.

Wiggle your camera at them/run at them and scream/press end, would probably be effective if you had a hitscan weapon, they would be open to receive damage.

Mix any of these up enough times and just striking will probably give you a free hit from the enemy having so much to contemplate, but you can probably settle for mixing up the morph one. Morphs are a massive counter to FTP, CFTP, off of stabs they're just hilarious, windows too huge I reckon, not sure what the reason for it being that way was, considering the stab anims, and the only reason morphs were broken for defense in the first place was removed (i reckon it was morph matching). Hopefully some anim changes will be enough to quell that but they should make the window a bit smaller to be safe then adjust after if necessary.

Knight 528 3386
  • 12 Sep '18
 rob_owner

To answer the title of the thread/main question, no it doesn't really need feints as the main aspect, they can make whatever they want the main aspect. In my opinion, I think the main aspect should be the amalgamation of all intended mechanics. Feints, swing manipulation, chambering, parrrying, riposte, Marox would even say during the first video that everything flows into everything. I find it quite cool when I chamber an enemy and morph to a stab only to chamber the stab I predicted was cruising my way because there is now and will likely always be a high probability that the second enemy in a 1v2 will stab you because it requires the least amount of camera movement to manipulate into an instant hit and is less likely to team damage with and will let you range play easier. Sad to see that gone but oh well, that's just one example of mechanics, chambers and morphs, working off each other.

As for whether a feint meta is healthy, probably not if its anything like Chivalry since feinting in chiv was one of the ten deadly sins so sayeth the stone Public Server Commandments. You press Q and almost everyone would shit their pants, fingers launching to keyboards like rockets, ready to type in that chat and talk about how shitty feints were. Thing is, people will always find something to complain about, It was a fun challenge to adhere to their complaints and not play how they complained about, just to prove to them that it made no difference, i'd kill them anyway. One guy complained I backswung, so I only dragged. He complained I dragged, so I only ran at him and made him panic parry. He had nothing to complain about, so he left. I didn't even bother feinting in pubs because everything else was already broken enough for me to maximize.

In competitive though, I began my journey of finding the holy grail, the unreadables. It was a short journey so there isn't much to talk about except how easy it is to make yourself unreadable in chivalry. Let me mention the idea of luxury mechanics, something like chambering in mordhau. It lets you mitigate the need to actually hard read, it puts up a wall between you and the difficult mixups of the game, it lets you fool around with confrontation. Chiv's versions of these don't exist to nearly the same capacity in Mordhau, with its cartoon knockback and its double parrying, you could early parry windup and just attack because the enemy would probably try to feint you again because he knew you'd be able to parry his follow up, either way you'd just consume his stam or force him to feint so early its readable anyways, puts you at risk of getting dragged but the movement let you mitigate that as well. Good luck doing that in a game that lets you morph instead of feinting. (If parry recovery is made 25ms shorter from its current length in this build 17, it will probably be possible to double parry some really late feints, it almost is reliable because of the new movement). Cartoon knockback let the 2shottable halberd player fling the mean SoW player away from you so you can just zone your little balls off and not have to read him unless the fragile mechanic bugged out and actually pulled the enemy towards you. Hopefully you get the idea, either way for chiv its just a battle of whoever can maximize their initiative. That is non-specific and will always be true for these games. For chivalry though, it entails forcing the enemy to gamble you. People will read a feint you perform if you actually let it be readable, but for the most part, when you have initiative, the enemy is completely at your mercy and can only hope to gamble you to some capacity if there isn't a luxury mechanic or the feints are actually readable in a neutral situation (meaning the guy you're going to be diddling isn't in a 1vX). You can definitely argue it needs to be this way though, because otherwise you'd never get a free hit off a single guy, but that's not true, it would just take a really long time and probably be really boring for 2 good players to fight. Duels are important but I figured the consensus was that this is a team fighting game, so it seems reasonable to keep that as a priority when making any changes or spitballing any ideas.

Knowing all this shit, I can't reasonably say the feints in Chivalry are readable, as consequence of the animations, the netcode, the bugs, the desyncs, the feint windows, all the dirt and grime and muck, if someone complains about it in the chat, I'm pretty sure they fell for a bad feint, and if they knew how to footwork they could def double parry the follow up, but I can't pretend something like a stab feint is, with 0 camera movement and manipulation, unreadable if you just wait a tid bit before pressing the button, is readable, mostly because I just crafted the situation to fit the point I also crafted. The skill it takes to perform this can be taught in a few minutes, the only real skill comes down to like 600 hours of experience actually using the tool you were taught. Mordhau doesn't have all the dirt grit and grime, but a fun thing to do is pretend chambers don't exist, and then try reading. The initial feint nerf of 75ms from patch 14 got trimmed more and more each build after it, and we have now reached full 75ms again on this current patch 17. You can do some deep feints, but you can also do some deep morphs. I'm sorry to say I don't believe the animations are good enough at the moment to warrant these timings, so to compensate, it would probably be wise to nerf them for the time being.

I've also noticed morphs seem to counter parry more than they counter chambers. A new comer to the game will probably wonder why he'd ever feint someone who is being pressured by his teammate when he could just start a stab windup inside the enemy then morph out of it. Currently it consumes 5 stamina, which is nullified once you get a hit and receive 10 stamina. Making morph only possible if you chamber could actually make them exist more during chamber exchanges than elsewhere so they will be of more effect to chamber exchanges and achieve their purpose (if they are better at countering something else, they can hardly be said to counter their intended counter, at least that's what I have noticed, maybe someone else has had a different experience.) is something you could do until the animations improve significantly. I don't know if that's an issue or anything though, just noticing it counters parries more than its intended counter, and I predict that will still be the case if morph matching is removed.

People probably didn't like feints in chivalry because they felt they were forced to gamble a random guy's feint mixups. They accepted it was not realistic to read, I watched as they gave up any attempts to, and honestly I can't really blame them, even if they were dealing with readable poo feints from some random rank 30. I also knew how easily the max potential for an unreadable feint could be brought about, so I couldn't reasonably quell a random guy's frustration by telling him they are reasonably readable (Keep in mind its not realistic for me to think I could make him feel any better even if I could tell him they were reliably readable, I'd just like to be able to say that). Backswing feints, stab feints, it was pretty braindead to make yourself unreadable, and with that in mind you're delusional if you think you're reading some massive nerd's massive feint's that mimic the release animation if you happen to not parry during the feint part, so as long as Mordhau doesn't have that kind of gameplay, it should be fine.

Knight 528 3386
  • 4 May '18
 rob_owner

i knocked someone off horse with halberd smack, then stab their body while its on floor, but then so i for sure get another free hit because they're still alive, i kick them, so after their ragdoll stun, they get kick stunned.

i thought this was a bit over kill and brutal, especially since more than 1 person knocking a guy off a horse causes people to zombie swarm him, its already especially unlikely for the person to survive in that case.

Knight 528 3386
  • 26 Apr '18
 rob_owner

damn bro would would be so scary living back then when the sky was a big quilt

Knight 528 3386
  • 22 Apr '18
 rob_owner

the same thing would have happened if he didnt team damage. one of them misses, the other doesnt, your parry window is out lasted either way. I'd prefer this happening to me rather than being team flinched because one is more under my control.

Knight 528 3386
  • 1
  • 18 Apr '18
 rob_owner

i thought the title was super clever like, the kick kicks so much ass that its just feeling the shit inside of the ass, like it feels shit, but then i read some of what you said and saw you didnt think they were good.

I actually preferred the old kicks from last build, was just a quick little punch, a great counter for feints if you use a sluggy weapon, you could read feint and punish with F, kinda harder and way more risky to try that now though, if you miss you are a free hit, if you land it the guy needs to take a pause brake and i have to stop fighting him so he can recoup. It also feels slower and easier to dodge and baiting it is extremely viable. Just my opinion though, they'll probably do more to the footsies mechanic and I dont mind testing, even if I dont like it as much as last build it might just be better in the long run, but they'll probably fine tune it some more later, either decide that any kind of stun is bad or leave this as an exception i dunno

Knight 528 3386
  • 18 Apr '18
 rob_owner
  • Fat pose now has a wider walk

finally the game is playable

Knight 528 3386
  • 5 Apr '18
 rob_owner

chivalry double click rmb was slower than chivalry Q + Rmb, but both were as slow as molasses compared to binding the first column for parry to like backslash, and the second to rmb, which makes rmb work the same as autoftp

Knight 528 3386
  • 5 Apr '18
 rob_owner

one is smaler numbroer than two so if only 1 then time took to do 1 is not as big a time a time 2 do 2 because 2 is 1 more than 1 2 do