Mordhau

Potential Maul Adjustments

113 117
 Kashi

Now the maul is a subject of a lot of differing views but it does boil down to 2 major problems at this current time

1.) It's not as viable of a weapon at higher levels despite its raw power

2.) Despite point one its still an extremely toxic weapon because of how it plays out in front-line and even duel servers with the oh so funny naked maul army

Fixing the maul is kind of hard as if you remove its 1 shot head shot on all armors it loses its identity and basically becomes all around inferior to the E-Star in all fronts so I cant really bring my self to be rid of it

Another issue is its thrust , its slow short range and its only strong point is that it setups a two shot if you land the thrust on the chest making the maul very unforgiving to fight , but fairly easy to avoid with lighter builds

On the flip side if the maul player goes light they can keep pressure up fairly easy with the weapons stamina game, while its no sledge , its not locked behind a meme perk and with good footwork would basically out stamina most everyone if your footwork is good at keeping them in striking distance

Mechanically the maul is missing a few key aspects that make it truly viable at higher level and is over tuned in other aspects that make it toxic to deal with overall

1.) It's overall slow as hell , not innately a bad thing but with its short reach makes it much easier to deal with

2.) It's lack of utility in a fight means that if they are in a fight they are pretty one dimensional in play style making it far more predictable than its competitor the Estar or even the Executioners sword (i have separate gripes vs that one but i wont get into that now)

3.) Its stamina pressure is overbearing when its on a light build allowing it to keep in your face much easier and if their defense is good as long as they got the first hit in or forced a wiff, making it a very difficult weapon to duel if they are a competent player with it.

So getting to the meat of this i got a few tweaks that would make it more viable at higher levels, while reducing some of the toxic aspects of the weapon in front line to hopefully make it a healthier weapon and a proper contender with the E star

Maul Rework idea.png

Lets tackle the damage first.

1.) Despite the head shot being unchanged I am changing its swing damage to chest and legs without lowering swing hit to kill
this will keep its identity as a head shot monster.

From: T0=85 T1=83 T2=77 T3=75

To : T0=85 T1=75 T2=70 T3=65

While this doesn't affect time to kill for swings it will drastically reduce kill credit for the naked one and done playstyle, aswell as be less of a death sentence vs t3 when dealing with other players and recurves on the field aswell

3.) Stab damage should also be toned down vs t2 and t3 chest

From:T2=36 T3=35
To : T2=35 T3=30

this will make more sense when i get to the speed adjustments here

To compensate for the damage nerfs

1.) Swings should be 700ms from 725m

2.) Stabs should be 600 ms down from 650ms

3.) Stab combo speed to set to 900 ms

4.) Stabs (if possible) should be granted the ability to combo

Another minor change to stamina is reduce swing miss cost by 1 point to 12 from 13

and reduce stamina drain from 24 to 21 to make it slightly more forgiving to fight thanks to the stab buff

The maul may need further adjustments down the road but i think this would be a healthy start to it aswell as help make it more viable in higher level play

2017 2104

The maul will never be changed because it is the ultimate manifestation of the hypocrisy of the devs and the community.

Shields were attributed with exactly the same problems. But while shields were shunned the maul is cool. Even if you could somehow lead a civilized and objective discussion based on arguments in this forum, it most likely would still be just ignored.

The maul also escapes all the other balancing guidelines that were followed at least loosely with the other weapons. It's an outlier in almost every regard for purely romantic reasons. You are fighting a hopeless fight here.

113 117
  • 6 Apr
 Kashi

@SWSeriousMike said:
The maul will never be changed because it is the ultimate manifestation of the hypocrisy of the devs and the community.

Shields were attributed with exactly the same problems. But while shields were shunned the maul is cool. Even if you could somehow lead a civilized and objective discussion based on arguments in this forum, it most likely would still be just ignored.

The maul also escapes all the other balancing guidelines that were followed at least loosely with the other weapons. It's an outlier in almost every regard for purely romantic reasons. You are fighting a hopeless fight here.

cant blame me for tying my dude ,im just hoping it does spark a civil discussion really .

1697 1291
  • 6 Apr
 esturias

No need for another thread. Everything that needs to be said has been said. More than once.
The rest is up to the devs.

Knight 281 725
  • 6 Apr
 Iodine

Cannot stand the maul. It has no place in the game. Can't tell you how many times I've died to cheap instakill headshots from naked FFAers on duel servers

Knight 941 2568
  • 6 Apr
 Pred

I don't think your changes would make any difference, Maul is so broken and so much "outside" the framework of this game, it can't be fixed with cosmetic changes. Yeah, random drive-by bonky boys might now get 85 kills and 15 assists instead of 90 and 10, but does it change anything?

Consider this excellent, hard, skill-based, focused gameplay and tell me 10 less damage on torso hit are going to fix it:

https://streamable.com/244n5k

2017 2104

@Kashi said:
cant blame me for tying my dude ,im just hoping it does spark a civil discussion really .

I don't want to blame you. Sorry if that was the impression I made. I just want to save you the hassle.

This discussion will only become relevant once the SDK is finished. Before that you might come up with the most beautiful and absolute perfect solution that everyone agrees on and it will still just be ignored.

Whoever is responsible for balancing can't be bothered with changing the obviously broken shit. For some reason it's far more important to add minuscule, obscure changes to make 1vX a winning strategy.

113 117
  • 6 Apr
 Kashi

@Pred said:
I don't think your changes would make any difference, Maul is so broken and so much "outside" the framework of this game, it can't be fixed with cosmetic changes. Yeah, random drive-by bonky boys might now get 85 kills and 15 assists instead of 90 and 10, but does it change anything?

Consider this excellent, hard, skill-based, focused gameplay and tell me 10 less damage on torso hit are going to fix it:

https://streamable.com/244n5k

10 less damage to t3 doesn't sound like much it is enough to push the majority of kill credit away from the maul user that doesn't stick in fights mind you this is mostly targeted towards the more toxic hit and run style that is overly rewarding,

For example ive seen a naked maul man run around and secure 60+ kills and zero assists at level 20 withot really dedicating to a fight and barely landed finishing blows himself, instead he was running around body shoting anyone he got close too and ran off for his team to finish. if i would wager a guess based on how poorly he fought in a 1v1 he only landed maybe 25-30 finishing blows himself while the rest was done in by his team,

While its not a Bad play style in and of itself ,it does overly reward them with kill credit causing them to get higher ranking and potentially getting even a commander role where their inexperience causes them to basically throw the match for their team

the swing damage change is mostly to shift that to assists so it doesn't inflate their score and they would have to
1.) aim for the head more as you should with the maul
2) commit to fights more to finish the opponent

The real meat of the changes comes with the stab adjustments, moving it from raw damage to more utility it still keeps a good chunk of damage but requires either more hits or land a head shot with the thrust to confirm the two shot followup on swing

I'm hoping this makes abit more sense on my train of thought here

while your video does show the raw power of the maul you also commit to fights instead of running off to land single hits on as many people as possible on unaware enemies

Knight 941 2568
 Pred

@Kashi said:
the swing damage change is mostly to shift that to assists so it doesn't inflate their score and they would have to
1.) aim for the head more as you should with the maul
2) commit to fights more to finish the opponent

Dunno bruh, you actually want to be committed to big fights as Maul user, because that's what lets you maximize your kills - the more you are riposting (during which you will be taking less damage due to hyperarmor) and the more there are people nearby to switch to and regenerate health, the longer you can stay alive and rack up kills (obviously works best with bloodlust).

Getting a "fake kill" when you have hit a dude and he dies to someone else is not really THAT much of a problem.

113 117
  • 6 Apr
 Kashi

@Pred said:

@Kashi said:
the swing damage change is mostly to shift that to assists so it doesn't inflate their score and they would have to
1.) aim for the head more as you should with the maul
2) commit to fights more to finish the opponent

Dunno bruh, you actually want to be committed to big fights as Maul user, because that's what lets you maximize your kills - the more you are riposting (during which you will be taking less damage due to hyperarmor) and the more there are people nearby to switch to and regenerate health, the longer you can stay alive and rack up kills (obviously works best with bloodlust).

Getting a "fake kill" when you have hit a dude and he dies to someone else is not really THAT much of a problem.

On the subject of hyperarmor you dont take less damage you just dont get flinched and cause weapons to hitstop on ya

And for the kill credit issue it's more of a problem of the mauls raw 75 + chest damage

its amplified because the sheer amount of naked maul builds, every match there is at minimum 3 In a lobby somtimes more . Alot of the time these guys dont commit to fights as I've stated and I stead run around with a hit and run style.

I wouldn't really be mentioning it if it wasnt for the number of rounds that got thrown because said builds getting a commander role from it

The adjustment is mostly targeted at this specific playstyle so players that earn those kills more directly become the commander instead of the level 50 or below meme man that got more kill credit than they rightfully deserve

I've seen perhaps 6 or 7 rounds in the last 30 games that end in such players getting commander only to die in the first 3 minuites.

While yes they are helping the team secure kills before the commander step and keeping enemy numbers thin the reward is abit too high for the effort put in . Considering how shit it feels for the commander to die off because a guy doesnt have a solid grasp of the mechanics

1430 2175

Maul should never have been added... but it's here and it's here to stay. The problem with maul is the playstyle people use with it and the sheer volume of people who use it... It should be a very defensive weapon but it's able to mindlessly run and swing in team fights and rack up kills.. and it doesn't require any skill.

I think lowering it's T3/T2 damage by 10, removing the asist-as-kills really would be a step in the right direction. It would certainly be less obnoxious... Ofcourse it's stab has to be made less useful by either damage or slowing it down, too...

Otherwise, I don't think it's speed/stamina stats should be tweaked though.

874 375

Kashi, I don't agree on everything you said, yet I like your rather unbiased approach and you're trying to take into account all the different opinions.

So what I think is most important:

  • Torso damage (swing)
  • Stam drain
  • Leg damage (swing)

And to balance things out, give a small windup speed buff.

199 263
  • 7 Apr
 Quenquent

@esturias said:
No need for another thread. Everything that needs to be said has been said. More than once.
The rest is up to the devs.

No, that's the problem. Every Maul discussions, especially on this forum, had been reduced to content for a video about babies crying on Youtube. It's either "Maul OP plz remove" or "Just move away/dodge LOL" and no actual discussions/suggestions has been done.

I think @Kashi here have, not only the good approach, but also some good suggestion. A swing damage nerf to prevent "tag and go" tactics that I do see a lot in FL/Inv, a nerf to two-shotting which was my main concern, while still keeping the main point of the weapon : aim for headshots. And, in bonus, more viability in duels while keeping the main counters to it.

113 117
  • 7 Apr
 Kashi

@Quenquent said:

@esturias said:
No need for another thread. Everything that needs to be said has been said. More than once.
The rest is up to the devs.

No, that's the problem. Every Maul discussions, especially on this forum, had been reduced to content for a video about babies crying on Youtube. It's either "Maul OP plz remove" or "Just move away/dodge LOL" and no actual discussions/suggestions has been done.

I think @Kashi here have, not only the good approach, but also some good suggestion. A swing damage nerf to prevent "tag and go" tactics that I do see a lot in FL/Inv, a nerf to two-shotting which was my main concern, while still keeping the main point of the weapon : aim for headshots. And, in bonus, more viability in duels while keeping the main counters to it.

Pretty much my aim tbh

As much as I personally dislike the maul I do think it fills a niche in the game and should have adjustments to keep its identity while making it more viable yet less toxic

874 375

I'm probably never installing the game again if this maul stays meta.

13 5
  • 14 Apr
 Turrican

On the other side it should be impossible to block any attack from heavy weapon like mauls, war axes and so on with any types of knifes and cleaver. Thats bullshit and annoying.

2017 2104

Only shields and fists can block. Weapons can only parry. ;)

I'd say it's easier to parry a maul than a quarterstaff.

1697 1291
  • 14 Apr
 esturias

@Turrican said:
On the other side it should be impossible to block any attack from heavy weapon like mauls, war axes and so on with any types of knifes and cleaver. Thats bullshit and annoying.

Please... for everyone's sanity - don't try to argue about realism in this game.

13 5
  • 14 Apr
 Turrican

Yes, but it should make at least some kind of sense and shouldn't be completely unrealistic. ;)

113 117
  • 14 Apr
 Kashi

It does make a little bit of sense because those tiny knives also take a crapload of stamina to block with

Also please stay on topic about maul changes specifically, just to keep it from derailing the subject of the topic