Mordhau

The Recurve Bow

45 42
 λze

This is in direct response to TheCutestOTTER, with his thread about re-balancing ranged weapons. My reply is quite long and different so I thought it would be better as its own thread for further discussion.

The Recurve Bow.

I like to think that i know what the game intended with this weapon, and i think it has not quite made it to the right place yet.

what the recurve bow should be (stat wise):
points reduced from 6 to 5.
damage the same as it is except heavy body shot reduced to 23 (5 shots to kill)
draw speed increased from 700 to 850.
ammo reduced from 24 to 12
most importantly: firing does not interrupt healing

Why? i hear you scream. let me explain.

At the moment players believe there are only two real choices in play style. you play melee or your play ranged. The longbow as pointed out by TheCutestOTTER, does indeed feel like a peasant weapon since you cannot have much else with it. This is exactly the point. The longbow says "you wanna play ranged? then play ranged and only ranged". you are supposed to do decent support damage with it and take out other archers whilst being highly disadvantaged in melee play.

The recurve bow is fast (draw speed), accessible (cheap), and does poor but substantial damage. this screams "secondary weapon". the problem is that people keep wanting to use it as a primary weapon. The recurve bow is there to allow you to play as a hybrid, but not ranged-with-melee, its for melee-with-ranged. It allows you to have a decent 4-6 point weapon whilst having a great ranged attribute during times that need it. but it restricts you having perks. Its not for taking out other archers, this is proven by the fact that it does not one shot them even with the hunter perk, and its not for effective ranged play since its damage it too low to be truly effective on its own. now probably the most controversial part, the healing whilst firing. This will really solidly place the recurve bow as a great secondary weapon because it creates a golden time to use it. you get low on health, back off, and shoot a few arrows whilst you heal up, then get back in the fight. you stay present in the fight wihtout doing anything devastating. sounds pretty good right? whats the draw back? the drawback is that you have very little perks to play with after your armour set.

This is why i propose the above changes to properly solidify this as a secondary weapon to melee players and not a stand alone ranged weapon.

I welcome your thoughts and arguments

1399 1054
  • 2 Feb
 esturias

I really like the idea about not interrupting healing, maybe that should get added anyway, but I don't like the idea about degrading it to a lame secondary weapon. We need more options to pick from for long ranged gameplay, not less.

And you could have posted this in the other thread without any problems.

Knight 3311 6797
 Bodkin

Recurve is fine and godly if you are good.

Source:

677 287

Lol not interrupting healing... Are you kidding?
What about... NO HEALING?
Another stupid Question: Was it really neccessary to split a discussion into 2 threads? Why didn't you just respond to him in the old thread?

166 210
  • 4 Feb
 Quenquent

@esturias said:
I really like the idea about not interrupting healing, maybe that should get added anyway

To be honest, healing interruption is a bit janky on ranged. Why does regen gets cancelled when you are reloading/aiming ?

1399 1054
 esturias

@Quenquentthebabysitter said:
To be honest, healing interruption is a bit janky on ranged. Why does regen gets cancelled when you are reloading/aiming ?

Makes perfect sense. After all, you are about to attack again. You have to decide between healing or attacking.

@Bodkin said:
Recurve is fine and godly if you are good.

Every weapon can be fine if you are good, so that is completely irrelevant when talking about gamebalance.

166 210
  • 4 Feb
 Quenquent

@esturias said:

@Quenquentthebabysitter said:
To be honest, healing interruption is a bit janky on ranged. Why does regen gets cancelled when you are reloading/aiming ?

Makes perfect sense. After all, you are about to attack again. You have to decide between healing or attacking.

For attacking and aiming, I agree it makes perfect sense. But I have troubles with reloading.

@esturias said:

@Bodkin said:
Recurve is fine and godly if you are good.

Every weapon can be fine if you are good, so that is completely irrelevant when talking about gamebalance.

If everyone was a god-like player (which we are not), I'm sure there would be weapons that wouldn't be fine. Also, it's better to balance something from the higher level of play. @Bodkin's argument is absolutely relevant.

1399 1054
  • 4 Feb
 esturias

@Quenquentthebabysitter said:
For attacking and aiming, I agree it makes perfect sense. But I have troubles with reloading.

Well. When reloading, you still do something, rather than waiting for your damage to heal. It's the same as with attacking: Do you want to heal or do you want to (prepare your next) attack?

Also, it's better to balance something from the higher level of play.

You obviously have to balance things for all skilllevels, because the vast majority of a game's players will always be "below good". It's pointless to just create items that are strong but hard to use, when close to noone can effectively use them at the end. You just need to put serious effort into the finetuning of things, because good players can easily abuse balancing mistakes.

@Bodkin's argument is absolutely relevant.

It isn't, because it doesn't state anything relevant. It's just self-praise.
It's like those arguments you hear when talking about broken/OP weapons: "The weapon is fine, you just need to get good."

166 210
  • 4 Feb
 Quenquent

@esturias said:

@Quenquentthebabysitter said:
For attacking and aiming, I agree it makes perfect sense. But I have troubles with reloading.

Well. When reloading, you still do something, rather than waiting for your damage to heal. It's the same as with attacking: Do you want to heal or do you want to (prepare your next) attack?

That does make sense.

@esturias said:

Also, it's better to balance something from the higher level of play.

You obviously have to balance things for all skilllevels, because the vast majority of a game's players will always be "below good". It's pointless to just create items that are strong but hard to use, when close to noone can effectively use them at the end. You just need to put serious effort into the finetuning of things,

I would love to say "Any bad player will eventually become good, so things shouldn't be tuned toward bad players", but I know it's more complicated than that.

@esturias said:
because good players can easily abuse balancing mistakes.

And this is exactly why balance changes should be more tailored toward these players that knows how to break and exploit the game to the extreme. That's why we got things like Wessex and jpeg-riposte removed : they affect high level balance while destroying lower-level players without troubles.

Even if it is talking about TF2, this video is for me the reason why balance should be done that way :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw

@Bodkin's argument is absolutely relevant.

It isn't, because it doesn't state anything relevant. It's just self-praise.
It's like those arguments you hear when talking about broken/OP weapons: "The weapon is fine, you just need to get good."

I agree this isn't the best argument, but high-level play shouldn't be ignored either. I still think it's relevant since knowing the full potential of the weapon is necessary to help with its balance. Recurve Bow might be bad for your average player, but if a good one can solo an entire team in competitive play without issues (I'm highly exaggerating here for the sake of example), then a buff might not be a good solution.

Let's take Overwatch as an example. When the game came out, everyone was on Bastion being overpowered, destroying any team. But the playerbase got better, without any change to the Hero, and Bastion only received buff due to him being rather weak then (at least, for as long as I was playing the game). This can perfectly happen for any weapon and that include the Recurve Bow.

45 42
  • 4 Feb
 λze

Ive topped the charts numerous times with many different weapons including bows. A good player will naturally do that, even with a bad weapon they will likely do that.

I dont think a high level player showing himself doing good with a weapon against average players is highlighting anything.

You really do want to balance a game on higher level players vs higher level players.

in fact, balancing based on what the average scrub can and cant do leads to pretty bad results such as where high level players can quickly and heavily abuse items, and where noobs are getting many more kills than they should be just because something has been made easier.

No one likes a low skill ceiling.

12 9
  • 4 Feb
 Vonwolf

The problem with the recurve is the weapon does less damage if its not at full drawn shot which makes its rapid fire mechanic a little useless. It currently take more then 5 shots to put down a t3 if not fired at full drawn.

Landing 4-5 consecutive shots can prove to be challenging when pitted against actual good melee players.

The Koreans absolutely loved the recurve or composite bow. It was an absolute killing machine that could handle the same poundage as an English longbow but in a much smaller form. It was known as the primary weapon of their armies.

The damage overall I can tolerate 4-5 on T3 but considering that they buffed parry where it covers them from head to toe makes archery difficult. Before, you could tag players in their lower legs because they couldn't parry the shots from that low. It was great at taking down shield users due to their legs being exposed.

Id say the ability to parry an arrow should be an advanced skill and not everyone should beable to do it. Which means increasing the projectile speed of arrows.

57 47
  • 4 Feb
 123mop

@TheCutestOTTER said:
The problem with the recurve is the weapon does less damage if its not at full drawn shot which makes its rapid fire mechanic a little useless. It currently take more then 5 shots to put down a t3 if not fired at full drawn.

This is false. As soon as you can shoot the arrow it does full damage. Just tap your attack button when you have an arrow loaded and watch it draw, shoot, and deal the same damage as a full draw.

Knight 3311 6797
 Bodkin

@λze said:
I dont think a high level player showing himself doing good with a weapon against average players is highlighting anything.

Every one of those clips were from competitive matches.

Not trying to suck my own dick here but I am telling you that if you buff archers they will break the game. The primary point of archers is to soften the enemy up for their team's melee, or finish off people who try to go heal. Landing damage before a fight begins can completely fuck that whole engagement for them.

Longbow and Crossbow are decent at getting kills but Recurve is 100% geared towards the support job, and this is fine. 4 shots to kill with a good rate of fire at 6 pts is very strong since unlike Longbow you can gear yourself up for melee as well and not just be a fairy. Recurve is basically made for you to be a Chiv MAA class but with a bow (I dont mean dodge, I just mean the role of light infantry).

Buffing Recurve any more would make Crossbow and Longbow completely fucking useless. Recurve used to be dogshit but it is very good now.

EDIT: went through your post in more detail and saw you wanted it to be 5pts and weaker dmg but honestly this would make it worthless again. It used to be 5htk previously and it was garbage to employ. 5htk is on the tier of rocks without much in redeeming quality. You could say the redeeming quality would be that it is cheap, but honestly at that point just use throwables and go full melee. Recurve is actually good now at doing something without being broken and I don't think it is in need of any changes whatsoever now. The absolute most I would agree with is projectile speed being faster but even then it's going to start encroaching on the Longbow/Xbow territory with a better overall DPS.

45 42
  • 5 Feb
 λze

I hear what you are saying, and thanks for having a re-read of the post. Yes i was suggesting it be nerfed to encourage it to be used in a different way, as a secondary weapon.

Right now as a primary weapon i dont think the balance is off at all and i agree with you entirely in that respect.

The only problem i have is that, balanced or not, being bombarded with even weak arrows isnt all that fun for the melee players. Its true it does low damage but if there is (which 99% of the time there is) more than 1 archer then you often get hit by quite a few arrows before even reaching the enemy. it only takes 1 longbow to hit you just by chance on top of your initial recurve hit to basically put you on 1 shot from a melee player.

I think an archer having to think a bit more about their shots and take a bit more time to shoot them creates more of a sweet spot for the game as a whole in terms of balance. Every shot has more value and has more at stake that way.

just to double state my point, its not that its unbalanced, its that its not all that fun to fight against.

If people feel that there is a lack of variety with ranged play, that would really be down to the arrow types being limited and uninteresting rather than the lack of bow types. It would be great if you could have armour pieceing arrows which are heavy and have more dip (less range), high velocity arrows (weak but fast), we got fire arrows now, barbed arrows (for horses? or for causing flinch but being slow), the list goes on. The you can just change ammo type if you want at a ammo box when you refill.

12 9
  • 6 Feb
 Vonwolf

Id agree with the statement of archers filling a more support role instead of a direct damage dealing role.The main argument I have for a buff in projectile speed is to fulfill that support role greater. The recurve was supposed to have a faster projectile speed that the longbow(which it didwhen the game launched). Its trade off was fire speed and velocity for damage. The long bow has received 2 buffs to its projectile speed so currently it outweighs the recurve in performance atm.

Id consider myself a decent archer, one a little above average but there is some maps where you have to get dangerously close to the melee action to even get off a shot.

I had a match earlier with a recurve where I was 14/6/36 I received both the achievements of 30+ assists and 10 headshots in 1 match but to pull this off, I had to be within 25-30 ft of enemies at times just to land that many shots accurately.

When you see two people clashing, the amount of knock back even off parrying, throws off your arrow causing you to hit a friendly instead of an enemy. If you don't know what I mean, watch two players fight each other from a distance and watch how far they knock each other back from just parrying.

If anything, I would be happy if they reverted the old parry mechanic. This allowed archers to shoot at a players feet, through their parries unless them crouched or aimed their weapons down.

When a shield user would come at you, you were able to tag his feet and now you cant even if the shield isn't being used to block atm.

The introduction of the Brazier was a nice feature to the toolbox. I believe it gives your arrows +5 damage as burn damage. Definitely helps your melee teammates due to once you're hit by this, your screen is slightly obscured. Id love an introduction of other arrow types. Even if it forced you to use 1 perk point

If anyone does play archer here, id love to get a group together.

20200205191638_1.jpg

43 20
  • 6 Feb
 newfig

@TheCutestOTTER said:
Id agree with the statement of archers filling a more support role instead of a direct damage dealing role.The main argument I have for a buff in projectile speed is to fulfill that support role greater. The recurve was supposed to have a faster projectile speed that the longbow(which it didwhen the game launched). Its trade off was fire speed and velocity for damage. The long bow has received 2 buffs to its projectile speed so currently it outweighs the recurve in performance atm.

Id consider myself a decent archer, one a little above average but there is some maps where you have to get dangerously close to the melee action to even get off a shot.

I had a match earlier with a recurve where I was 14/6/36 I received both the achievements of 30+ assists and 10 headshots in 1 match but to pull this off, I had to be within 25-30 ft of enemies at times just to land that many shots accurately.

When you see two people clashing, the amount of knock back even off parrying, throws off your arrow causing you to hit a friendly instead of an enemy. If you don't know what I mean, watch two players fight each other from a distance and watch how far they knock each other back from just parrying.

If anything, I would be happy if they reverted the old parry mechanic. This allowed archers to shoot at a players feet, through their parries unless them crouched or aimed their weapons down.

When a shield user would come at you, you were able to tag his feet and now you cant even if the shield isn't being used to block atm.

The introduction of the Brazier was a nice feature to the toolbox. I believe it gives your arrows +5 damage as burn damage. Definitely helps your melee teammates due to once you're hit by this, your screen is slightly obscured. Id love an introduction of other arrow types. Even if it forced you to use 1 perk point

If anyone does play archer here, id love to get a group together.

20200205191638_1.jpg

1.png

43 20
 newfig

@TheCutestOTTER said:
I had a match earlier with a recurve where I was 14/6/36 I received both the achievements of 30+ assists and 10 headshots in 1 match but to pull this off, I had to be within 25-30 ft of enemies at times just to land that many shots accurately.

easy2.png

mehhhhh.png

etc etc

I always top 1-3 with the recurve

12 9
  • 6 Feb
 Vonwolf

Nice! you're one of the exceptional few who can. Obviously its player skill based but you cannot refine a weapon for the top 1% of players

Knight 3311 6797
  • 1
  • 13 Feb
 Bodkin

@TheCutestOTTER said:
Id agree with the statement of archers filling a more support role instead of a direct damage dealing role.The main argument I have for a buff in projectile speed is to fulfill that support role greater. The recurve was supposed to have a faster projectile speed that the longbow(which it didwhen the game launched). Its trade off was fire speed and velocity for damage. The long bow has received 2 buffs to its projectile speed so currently it outweighs the recurve in performance atm.

Id consider myself a decent archer, one a little above average but there is some maps where you have to get dangerously close to the melee action to even get off a shot.

I had a match earlier with a recurve where I was 14/6/36 I received both the achievements of 30+ assists and 10 headshots in 1 match but to pull this off, I had to be within 25-30 ft of enemies at times just to land that many shots accurately.

Well Longbow is supposed to be a better overall bow if we just look at the 2 compared, given that longbow costs 11 pts. The thing with the Recurve is it is nearly half the price, so you can afford to be closer to the engagement. The best way to use recurve imo is to maximize your melee effectiveness instead of adding things like ranger/huntsman because the longbow is just going to outperform you in this realm.

Use the recurve more like a skirmisher melee/archer hybrid than pure archer. If you want to be purely sniping and stuff the longbow and crossbow are going to be better choices. Recurve's main niche is you can be closer to the fight with better armor/melee and better mobility (you can half-sprint while reloading and drawing Recurve), so you should be getting closer to the fight to be effective with it. Recurve's dmg comes from landing a lot of shots quickly, which is going to be much more feasible the closer you are.

I try to sit right outside of spear range when I can. The longer shots are mostly harassment so they dont just sit there. When they start coming to fight is when the real dmg is going to start happening.

On another note, when I say "buff your melee effectiveness instead of archery" I do not mean putting on full armor and using a cheap gimp-ass weapon. You're going to be better off investing in a good melee weapon with armor as a secondary focus. I'd say keep it 4pts or higher for your melee otherwise youre wasting the point of recurve. My favorites thus far are 110/020 (your choice) with Maul and Friendly, and 120 Messer Huntsman/Friendly (you can give up huntsman if you wish)