Mordhau

Do Not Cater to Elitists

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I have been lurking the forums and u can start to see the writing on the wall. Mordhau is being driven in a direction that facilities more of a competitive esports crowd. Every game I've seen do this plummets in player count until it inevitably dies a slow and painful death. As of late, there have been an influx of players due to the Steam Sales and meme videos on YouTube. I was honestly sold originally on the game based on it's silliness and fun factor only to be greeted with a tryhard audience that vastly outnumbers the gaming audience.

If more and more development time is going to be focused into directions that only benefit the tourney or esports crowd, there's going to be another player hemorrhage. I don't want the game to die out because I need other players at my skill range too.

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  • 13 Jan
 Atlas-D

"Do not cater to good players"

Plenty of games cater to "elitists" and they're fine. The good players know what the game needs and what is fair and what isn't. The new players die to undragged ripostes so anything works down there. Don't be ridiculous.

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  • 13 Jan
 esturias

@LaughingRaven said:
I have been lurking the forums and u can start to see the writing on the wall. Mordhau is being driven in a direction that facilities more of a competitive esports crowd.

How exactly?
Right now I'm just glad that the game makes some little positive progress.

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@Atlas-D said:
"Do not cater to good players"

Plenty of games cater to "elitists" and they're fine. The good players know what the game needs and what is fair and what isn't. The new players die to undragged ripostes so anything works down there. Don't be ridiculous.

Every game I've played on that tries to make itself into some sort of esport eventually creates a drastic plateau of variable player skill that it basically means the end of new players picking up the game.

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@esturias said:

@LaughingRaven said:
I have been lurking the forums and u can start to see the writing on the wall. Mordhau is being driven in a direction that facilities more of a competitive esports crowd.

How exactly?
Right now I'm just glad that the game makes some little positive progress.

Now I just started playing a week ago but I read a lot.

Shields are basically useless items that cost build points now. It reminds me of Dark Souls. In DS1, shields were mandatory. In DS2, shields got nerfed into oblivion and we're essentially wasted gear slots because of how easy they were to counter. In DS3, there were dual doors. This ultimately means that defensive playstyle and defensive tactics are basically going the way of the dodo. An entire playstyle has effectively been uprooted and people are cheering for it instead of simply carrying extra firebombs. Worst of all, devs decide to make the tool useless instead of opting towards options that reflect its usefulness, like increasing the point cost to mitigate how much armor or other gear you can have.

Light armor is completely shafted in almost everything and the few things it's good at are getting removed or set on equal level to the other armor tiers. From what I seen, chase mechanics make it so a heavy armored knight can outpace a guy running around with a shirt and pants. I'm not saying that you can't run in plate, but 33-55 extra pounds on you isn't going to help speed or maneuvering.

That and weapons like mauls and executioner sword still basically oneshot anyone if it glances the head. And you can still be pretty armored wearing it.

Bloodlust is basically broken.

There's still not a lot that facilitates playstyles that aren't "armored knight" and actually succeed. Its increasingly difficult to rogue and builder classes might as well just do something else with how little support they receive from their own team. On top of that there's still no defining way to be any kind of battlefield medic as auto regen health basically makes it obsolete.

All I'm saying is these design directions really, really only favor a specific playstyle, using specific weapons, and only one armor type. That makes the entire meta complete boring. I remember watching a YouTube video about a team saying "eff it" in a tournament and switching into a phalanx style of play with shield wielders in front and longspear in the back. It was good fun to watch and the defensive playstyle pulled through in the end. Now that kind of out of the box thinking is essentially being whittled away at. Its like people want some stale game where you can only do one sort of fighting style. Makes me sad.

It reminds me too much about PlanetSide 2, the fps I primarily play. Long time ago developers basically said they wanted the edgy tryhard community and made it so the only way to really get kills was to aim for the head. Now they bleed players as soon as they come by because of the blatant balance issues and lack of new player friendly servers or options in how to assist the team. I can see the same thing happening to this game if folk aren't careful.

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  • 4
  • 13 Jan
 Atlas-D

@LaughingRaven said:

Now I just started playing a week ago but I read a lot.

So what makes you think you're qualified to have balance opinions and opinons on the state of the game?

Shields are basically useless items that cost build points now. It reminds me of Dark Souls. In DS1, shields were mandatory. In DS2, shields got nerfed into oblivion and we're essentially wasted gear slots because of how easy they were to counter. In DS3, there were dual doors. This ultimately means that defensive playstyle and defensive tactics are basically going the way of the dodo. An entire playstyle has effectively been uprooted and people are cheering for it instead of simply carrying extra firebombs. Worst of all, devs decide to make the tool useless instead of opting towards options that reflect its usefulness, like increasing the point cost to mitigate how much armor or other gear you can have.

Good. As intended. Shields used to promote bad gameplay and made the game especially boring, turning it into a stamina drain game. They are also extremely overpowered for new players against other new players. Now they're experimenting with making them have a purpose but not completely defend against all drags, accels, feints, morphs and kicks (you could hold S as you blocked to avoid the kick).

Light armor is completely shafted in almost everything and the few things it's good at are getting removed or set on equal level to the other armor tiers. From what I seen, chase mechanics make it so a heavy armored knight can outpace a guy running around with a shirt and pants. I'm not saying that you can't run in plate, but 33-55 extra pounds on you isn't going to help speed or maneuvering.

Light armor is for when you got a big weapon/perks and you can't afford real armor. There are also a few select duel/frontline builds that capitalize on mobility but yes they are the exception. They have however started buffing lighter armors, medium armor now as the same movement penalty as light armor so you're encouraged to use lighter armor in some circumstances/builds.

That and weapons like mauls and executioner sword still basically oneshot anyone if it glances the head. And you can still be pretty armored wearing it.

The maul is a shit 1v1 weapon because you can dodge it by backrunning, ducking and just moving a lot. As for the exe sword, they nerfed it the latest patch. Furthermore, both these weapons have a glaring weakness of being unable to combo, which means when they miss you get a free hit.

Bloodlust is basically broken.

It is broken when you pick up a weapon off the battlefield yes, but alone it isn't because it's very expensive.

There's still not a lot that facilitates playstyles that aren't "armored knight" and actually succeed. Its increasingly difficult to rogue and builder classes might as well just do something else with how little support they receive from their own team. On top of that there's still no defining way to be any kind of battlefield medic as auto regen health basically makes it obsolete.

Refer to previous post about armor. However builders are exceptionally useful in frontline/invasion and I don't see why you think they aren't, especially when you have the heavy hand axe (which hammer side can repair buildings). You can block off objectives and protect important locations to deadly effect. When you got a good enough team you can even set up a turret and get some good kills in. You can be a battle medic with the medic bags, which are SUPER USEFUL from my experience, especially when I'm packing heavy armor without bloodlust. Lay them on tthe point and your team can go back to heal whenever they need to.

All I'm saying is these design directions really, really only favor a specific playstyle, using specific weapons, and only one armor type. That makes the entire meta complete boring. I remember watching a YouTube video about a team saying "eff it" in a tournament and switching into a phalanx style of play with shield wielders in front and longspear in the back. It was good fun to watch and the defensive playstyle pulled through in the end. Now that kind of out of the box thinking is essentially being whittled away at. Its like people want some stale game where you can only do one sort of fighting style. Makes me sad.

The better you get at the game and better you understand the nuance of this game, the more you will disagree with that above paragraph. When you go beyond the basics and really grasp how the game is played you will not want to play those other playstyles and like us, and you will safeguard the core gameplay against unnecessary outside influences that threaten the gameplay (not against change but resistant).

Furthermore, there are plenty of viable weapons in the meta, just about half of the weapons are viable.

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@Atlas-D said:
So what makes you think you're qualified to have balance opinions and opinons on the state of the game?

Because I'm a fresh set of eyes and appeal to seniority is a logical fallacy.

Good. As intended. Shields used to promote bad gameplay and made the game especially boring, turning it into a stamina drain game. They are also extremely overpowered for new players against other new players. Now they're experimenting with making them have a purpose but not completely defend against all drags, accels, feints, morphs and kicks (you could hold S as you blocked to avoid the kick).

Still, if they are so obnoxious why not just make them cost more points? Make it so if the guard is dropped or beaten it's more punishing. All it does is says, "don't use drags and accels at me" from what a lot of forum posters read. Plus there's also the old adage that, "if you're not doing damage and hard to kill people are going to ignore you in the game". Or is there something else besides just a lack of tactics here?

Plus why not treat things similar to how there's multiple approaches to horsemen? A billhook can pull a rider off, a spear can spook the horse and stop it on a dime. Why not have halberds expose shield users if they're blocking? Why not have another weapon type that is designed to hit around shields? There were many in history...

Light armor is for when you got a big weapon/perks and you can't afford real armor. There are also a few select duel/frontline builds that capitalize on mobility but yes they are the exception. They have however started buffing lighter armors, medium armor now as the same movement penalty as light armor so you're encouraged to use lighter armor in some circumstances/builds.

Couldn't they also make it so other features of movement benefit from light armor? In other games heavy armor also makes a huge racket when moving. Not that the game supports sneaky types but it could assist there.

The maul is a shit 1v1 weapon because you can dodge it by backrunning, ducking and just moving a lot. As for the exe sword, they nerfed it the latest patch. Furthermore, both these weapons have a glaring weakness of being unable to combo, which means when they miss you get a free hit.

Do they get hyper armor or anything? I can't seem to break people out of heavy strikes if I'm using a quicker weapon.

Refer to previous post about armor. However builders are exceptionally useful in frontline/invasion and I don't see why you think they aren't, especially when you have the heavy hand axe (which hammer side can repair buildings). You can block off objectives and protect important locations to deadly effect. When you got a good enough team you can even set up a turret and get some good kills in. You can be a battle medic with the medic bags, which are SUPER USEFUL from my experience, especially when I'm packing heavy armor without bloodlust. Lay them on tthe point and your team can go back to heal whenever they need to.

Whenever I play a builder it feels like the enemy drops everything to gung ho at me only to have the team I'm with wait for me to get smashed before dropping by later. Or with other nonsense horizontal swinging tk'ing bs.

The better you get at the game and better you understand the nuance of this game, the more you will disagree with that above paragraph. When you go beyond the basics and really grasp how the game is played you will not want to play those other playstyles and like us, and you will safeguard the core gameplay against unnecessary outside influences that threaten the gameplay (not against change but resistant).

I found fancy in this game based around it's larger scale medieval stuff. It reminded me of a sort of historical combined arms game (such as squad and the Battlefield series). I want there to be large scale fights with flaming arrows, boulders from trebuchets and warhorses stomping around. When you make everything based around nuance of the core combat you remove the ability to build on the grand scale. You slash classes, disrupt tactics, and make everything samey to where the only deciding factor is how good someone is with a Messer. There should always be a whole list of alternative gameplay styles compared to the core that fit into a team game or else you get a situation like PlanetSide Arena where they DID remove all of the auxillary gameplay and just made it core shooter gameplay over the combined arms style open combat. Wanna know what happened? It just recently shut down and the devs are backpedaling onto the primary game it came from. That is why I am concerned, because there is something going for this game and all I've seen as of late is funneling into the "nothing but core" which creates just this boring, competitive, duels only game.

Furthermore, there are plenty of viable weapons in the meta, just about half of the weapons are viable.

Half is better than a third I guess...

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  • 1
  • 13 Jan
 Atlas-D

@LaughingRaven said:
Because I'm a fresh set of eyes and appeal to seniority is a logical fallacy.

We have experience. We know what works in the game and what doesn't, we know how to do the best drags/accels. The more experienced almost always know more about a certain topic then a newcomer or an amateur. That isn't any sort of logical fallacy. Some of us have been playing since Chivalry. The amount of experience and the information it brings is far beyond your understanding until you learn.

Still, if they are so obnoxious why not just make them cost more points? Make it so if the guard is dropped or beaten it's more punishing. All it does is says, "don't use drags and accels at me" from what a lot of forum posters read. Plus there's also the old adage that, "if you're not doing damage and hard to kill people are going to ignore you in the game". Or is there something else besides just a lack of tactics here?

Lack of tactics? There's no tactic besides stamina warfare to beat any form of held block. Making it expensive will only piss off shield users more while still exposing the basic gameplay hurdles of shields for the people who don't use shields. The devs are experimenting with shields right now, making them have an active block frames on riposte (for 1vX) which I think is very very interesting if it works correctly.

Plus why not treat things similar to how there's multiple approaches to horsemen? A billhook can pull a rider off, a spear can spook the horse and stop it on a dime. Why not have halberds expose shield users if they're blocking? Why not have another weapon type that is designed to hit around shields? There were many in history...

That's actually a cool idea.

Couldn't they also make it so other features of movement benefit from light armor? In other games heavy armor also makes a huge racket when moving. Not that the game supports sneaky types but it could assist there.

That's a good idea actually.

Do they get hyper armor or anything? I can't seem to break people out of heavy strikes if I'm using a quicker weapon.

If a maul or exe sword user blocks, and ripostes, he has initiative (It is his turn to swing and you can't do anything about it) and he has hyper armor. As a user of a lighter weapon, you have to constantly back-sprint, duck and weave his maul if you want to win. If you have the same range or slightly more range than him, you can force him to not riposte if you peck at him away from his effective swinging length, because if he feels that you're too far away he'll feel like it's risky to swing and potientially miss. Then you can kick him and gett some good damage like that as he tries to facehug you. The stamina drain on the maul is the biggest threat for lighter weapons against the maul. If you block it 7-8 times you're pretty much done out on stamina, so DO NOT miss and make him miss, and you'll win.

Against an exe sword you'll have to run away from his drags so you can force out a whiff (this also works very well against a maul user), then punish. Then do your usual offense until he blocks again and ripostes.

Whenever I play a builder it feels like the enemy drops everything to gung ho at me only to have the team I'm with wait for me to get smashed before dropping by later. Or with other nonsense horizontal swinging tk'ing bs.

The only thing I could recommend is setting up slightly before tthe enemy gets there, and yeah, your team has to be decent for any building to really work out. However, when done correctly, it can be crazy. The latest example I've seen, placing the wooden barricades around the fire pits in the Taiga fortress. The enemy has to smash through the defense far past what was usually required to reach that fire pit, which is such an advantage for the defenders.

I found fancy in this game based around it's larger scale medieval stuff. It reminded me of a sort of historical combined arms game (such as squad and the Battlefield series). I want there to be large scale fights with flaming arrows, boulders from trebuchets and warhorses stomping around. When you make everything based around nuance of the core combat you remove the ability to build on the grand scale. You slash classes, disrupt tactics, and make everything samey to where the only deciding factor is how good someone is with a Messer. There should always be a whole list of alternative gameplay styles compared to the core that fit into a team game or else you get a situation like PlanetSide Arena where they DID remove all of the auxillary gameplay and just made it core shooter gameplay over the combined arms style open combat. Wanna know what happened? It just recently shut down and the devs are backpedaling onto the primary game it came from. That is why I am concerned, because there is something going for this game and all I've seen as of late is funneling into the "nothing but core" which creates just this boring, competitive, duels only game.

Frontline allows for the success of many wacky and diverse playstyles. I saw a light/medium armor guy with fury and an estoc just stab people's heads, like entire fucking crowds, and he's just like stab, stab, feint, stab stab running like sonic. In frontline, nuance means less than it does in skirmish or duel. I think this situation you're describing is already avoided, because the players who want nuance go to duel/skirmish while the more casual players go to frontline and the situation is never a problem.

Half is better than a third I guess...

The other half are either cheap weapons for high-loadout-point builds or just bad weapons. Most weapons in this game have a purpose.

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  • 14 Jan
 esturias

@Atlas-D said:
So what makes you think you're qualified to have balance opinions and opinons on the state of the game?

Because everyone is qualified to have an opinion. You don't need to be a 24/7 progamerer to be allowed to have one. Especially as long as the game has so many obvious issues at every corner.
It's on us as a community to get those opinions discussed here.

@topic: I still don't get how any of that leads you to the claim that the game caters towards "elites".
The game is just quite badly balanced and the content pretty unfinished...

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In essence you don't like the shield changes. Shields were hardly used in competitive tournaments (despite monetary prize pool). I don't know how you mix those two together and come to the conclusion that the game only caters to elitists.

Also you said that some weapons one-shot or two-shot everything and at the same time claim that heavy armor is mandatory. What is it now?

Sounds like you had your opinion and conclusion ready before you looked at the facts and arguments.

Like it or not: The chase mechanic is necessary. The game would be a miserable game of tag without it.
The shield change is controversial but most of the vocal long-term players liked it so far - at least the direction the changes are going. Shields not only had a high skill floor but also a very low skill ceiling. You conveniently forgot that the kick stun and the phantom range against shields were removed as well which on itself is a huge buff.

By the way, competitive games can work. Take CS:GO as an example.

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I share your opinion on Bloodlust and shamelessly plug one of my threads like I always do.
But I'll add more to the conversation. There couldn't be a more accurate way to describe my frustration with the game than:

@LaughingRaven said:
I was honestly sold originally on the game based on it's silliness and fun factor only to be greeted with a tryhard audience that vastly outnumbers the gaming audience.

To those who want to make it look, like the Issue is other players being better than us: It's about the most powerful tool they've been given. Without Bloodlust, you can't sustain HP with a bandage or even Med kits in similar fashion. You'll need to retreat to heal which is the breaking point. There should have never been 25 hp heal on kill. You should never be allowed to heal up to 100 Hit points after being hit. 75 or 80 HP should be the max HP.

I've been playing Bloodlust builds and the instant full heal is the most stupid thing in the game by far. It's so broken it's not even fun to do to others, camping on checkpoints or flanking, no matter what I did I felt like it wasn't right.
I restrain from fighting too close to enemy spawns, but Bloodlust wants me to pursue 1v2s just so I can make people hit each other and slash my way through, healing on each kill sometimes for more than 80 hp. I had one run, it took less than a minute with a 7 streak when I was level 30 noob and people hit me like 10 times before I died.
If I practiced that playstyle just for 20 30 hours, I could take on entire teams of noobs in their spawn like most of the other level 70+ faggots do. It's just about isolating 1v1s and footwork. But Spawnkilling is not my playstyle. I like to have a fair match, instead of locking down an entire team of noobs with 4 bloodlust rushers, flanking directly into spawn or lurking at the exits.
I've uninstalled the game, because it's been 6 months I've asked for bloodlust nerf, I got mixed responses but if you guys like it, have fun with your unbalanced garbage game. I hope esturias finally understands what bloodlust has to do with spawnkilling and why it's bad.

@SWSeriousMike said:
By the way, competitive games can work. Take CS:GO as an example.

That's a funny joke. Valve was a totally unknown game company that got funded on a kickstarter in 2017... no wait...
CS 1.6 has been a standalone game since 99 and the first mod is even older. CS:GO is only popular, because of the good reputation that 1.6 built up. I played all installments of counter strike since 04. When source came out, we still played 1.6 for more than 5 years before they purposely patched it to death.
CS:GO and its skin bullshit are the biggest scam steam has pulled in it's existence. The game is free now and cheaters can just make infinite accounts. Before they charged a cheater 3.50€ (lowest on sale, MMOGA and others got the keys and resold them) for an account which is still pretty damn cheap. The game is unplayable at comp games, once you kill 3 or 4 guys some idiot toggles their cheats on. Cheat developers get paid monthly. It's become an industry. CS:GO fucked up big time.

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@PC_Principal said:

@SWSeriousMike said:
By the way, competitive games can work. Take CS:GO as an example.

That's a funny joke. Valve was a totally unknown game company that got funded on a kickstarter in 2017... no wait...
CS 1.6 has been a standalone game since 99 and the first mod is even older. CS:GO is only popular, because of the good reputation that 1.6 built up. I played all installments of counter strike since 04. When source came out, we still played 1.6 for more than 5 years before they purposely patched it to death.
CS:GO and its skin bullshit are the biggest scam steam has pulled in it's existence. The game is free now and cheaters can just make infinite accounts. Before they charged a cheater 3.50€ (lowest on sale, MMOGA and others got the keys and resold them) for an account which is still pretty damn cheap. The game is unplayable at comp games, once you kill 3 or 4 guys some idiot toggles their cheats on. Cheat developers get paid monthly. It's become an industry. CS:GO fucked up big time.

I agree with the rest of your post, but this doesn't invalidate what I said before. Competitive games can work. They are not automatic failures. And AFAIK you can't start competitive matchmaking in CS:GO with a fresh account. I don't know too much about that though because the gameplay just isn't enjoyable for me.

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Yea they can work for sure. Take a look at rocket league. I liked the game, but the competetive aspect is what drove me off after playing a while. All I wanted is driving my car into a ball like a retard and have some fun. It was fun for a while, then I climbed the ranks and all of a sudden it was one of the most annoying games I've played. Just my personal experience. I find ranked gaming stressful and prefer casual matchups with players from all skill groups.

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  • 16 Jan
 Atlas-D

@PC_Principal said:
Yea they can work for sure. Take a look at rocket league. I liked the game, but the competetive aspect is what drove me off after playing a while. All I wanted is driving my car into a ball like a retard and have some fun. It was fun for a while, then I climbed the ranks and all of a sudden it was one of the most annoying games I've played. Just my personal experience. I find ranked gaming stressful and prefer casual matchups with players from all skill groups.

Those are not mutually exclusive. You can have a casual and competitive audience at the same time. Look at league. Dota is another very "try hard" game it's been doing fine.

As for what you've said about bloodlust, it can be very broken especially with the battleaxe.

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  • 18 Jan
 lordlemon

@LaughingRaven said:
I have been lurking the forums and u can start to see the writing on the wall. Mordhau is being driven in a direction that facilities more of a competitive esports crowd. Every game I've seen do this plummets in player count until it inevitably dies a slow and painful death. As of late, there have been an influx of players due to the Steam Sales and meme videos on YouTube. I was honestly sold originally on the game based on it's silliness and fun factor only to be greeted with a tryhard audience that vastly outnumbers the gaming audience.

If more and more development time is going to be focused into directions that only benefit the tourney or esports crowd, there's going to be another player hemorrhage. I don't want the game to die out because I need other players at my skill range too.

the newest update catered only to new players from what i've seen

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if he grinded level 40 in those 3 weeks he can talk.