Mordhau

The Parry Hitbox Change in Patch #14 is a Bad Idea

1383 2082

@Voco said:
Reducing the skill ceiling is a universally BAD IDEA, please decrease the parrybox and REMOVE it from the legs entirely. I don't mind getting thrashed by a highly skilled player that can expertly manipulate the game mechanics, that's part of what makes the game fun.

This.

Where are the leg hits? Especially for shields? There's not really side hits in this game, only flanks. And flanks are primarily a team play phenomena.

The game is 100% morph/feint or accel. Whether you pressed a button in time or got hit while you were still trying to figure out what the fuck that jittery animation was supposed to be.

Reflexes vs Restraint.

Are people even reading or are they just foot working it to minimize the power of a feint/accel? Big skill for stepping back, crouching and late parrying, right? Is footworking to minimize the chance of misreading a skill or a crutch? Shouldn't defense be more about your mouse rather than your WASD keys? But mouse doesn't play nearly as prominent of a role in defense (and dare I say offense, too) as footwork.

You'd think they'd have tightened the parry boxes, especially of shields, to open up the game a bit by now. You'd think after that torturous alpha the devs would have found a way to nerf crazy insiders that didn't involve making the parryboxes EVEN bigger.

You'd think it was impossible for me to miss Chivalry.

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  • 27 Nov '19
 afiNity

Making the parrybox bigger is the attempt to fix a whole other issue. And people like it because they don't want to see the bigger picture. That's just fighting the symptoms.
Make the parrybox smaller and fix insiders and the more strange drags. That would be the way to go.
If you make the parrybox even bigger than you have to do even more stupid moves to get behind the enemy defense.
And if you make the parrybox bigger and at the same time make drags worse, then duels will last for ages because weird drags are already the only way to win over an experienced player.

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  • 27 Nov '19
 Digganob

@SoRoofless said:
If jumping is superior then simply continue to jump and your gameplay can continue to be as you like it. Meanwhile it seems they have removed a nuisance for high level play.

What.

Saying that is pointless.

You could say that if they removed chambering one day:
"If chambering is superior then simply continue to chamber and your gameplay can continue to be as you like it."

That makes no sense.

There is no longer any point to jumping outside of fighting executioner sword users with no leg armor. You know why? Because no one will swing at your legs anymore. There is no point. You do less damage, swinging at a downwards angle lowers your range, and if they expect it they can jump over and get a free hit. There are zero reasons to jump now.

Also, "Meanwhile it seems they have removed a nuisance for high level play".

This change is the ANTITHESIS of a positive change for competitive play. They literally made the gameplay less complex, which causes competitive play to be dumbed down. They are turning "high level play" into an average fight between two average players, where they simply spam feints and morphs and hope their opponent doesn't time their parry right, or parries nothing.

A "nuisance" for competitive play would be a random mechanic, that doesn't require any skill, and that can't be stopped any easier by any level of skill.

Leg attacks are the exact opposite. They require skill to do, as you have to make your opponent think you're going for a different attack, and they require skill to stop, as you have to either crouch and parry, or, hard counter it, jump and get a free hit, and punish a predictable move.

They have further reduced the skill ceiling, and made the game less fun and interesting. As I said, this is like removing chambering. They might as well remove heads and legs altogether and make the players spheres to "remove a nuisance from high level play".

1383 2082

@afiNity said:
Making the parrybox bigger is the attempt to fix a whole other issue. And people like it because they don't want to see the bigger picture. That's just fighting the symptoms.
Make the parrybox smaller and fix insiders and the more strange drags. That would be the way to go.
If you make the parrybox even bigger than you have to do even more stupid moves to get behind the enemy defense.
And if you make the parrybox bigger and at the same time make drags worse, then duels will last for ages because weird drags are already the only way to win over an experienced player.

Thank you.

You'd think there would be other ways to fix insiders than just making the parry box bigger despite many people having asked for it to be tighter.

But, much like parry recovery from enemy attacks that missed you in ganks or constant animation rape at high level play, maybe insiders are unavoidable and just another symptom of the outdated and clunky, forcefield-style parry mechanic.

1.At the very least shields need their parrybox tightened horizontally AND vertically and turncap massively loosened. "Broken toe stabs" or whatever weak shit was in the patch notes should be usable against shields.

2.Parry also needs it's turn cap loosened too; it's very hard to respond to crazy drags in a 1v4 and the past two days its felt like reading the direction of drags has only mattered when getting ganked in FL by a maul or zwei.

Parry is clunkier than ever and I've seen plenty of back parries/chambers this patch despite and alleged fix.

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  • 27 Nov '19
 Stouty

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
The all powerful @Stouty has spoken.

Oh sorry that one guy in your private duelyard can perform crazy insiders at 13 ping. I guess side stabbing should be totally obsolete in a duel setting.

If players significantly better than you find that the parry is unresponsive then you should probably listen to them

@Digganob said:

Thanks for the explanation. Well, that settles it, it ain't a problem with parry boxes being too small, it's a bug. A separate issue. Parry boxes could be made small, and this issue could be fixed separately.

Go ahead and try fixing it, modding the combat is an option

If they can do a fancy trick to get around the parry box, so can I dude. That's my point, they're dumbing down gameplay.

Nothing says intelligent gameplay than hitting through each other's parries, go play call of duty if you want to kill people in 2 seconds with minimal effort

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  • 27 Nov '19
 yourenemiesfriend

@Stouty said:
Nothing says intelligent gameplay than hitting through each other's parries, go play call of duty if you want to kill people in 2 seconds with minimal effort

Nothing says intelligent human like having over 1000 hours at the time yet still thinking the game was literally finished in March.

Screenshot (82).png\

Embarrasssing.

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  • 27 Nov '19
 Digganob

@Stouty said:

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
The all powerful @Stouty has spoken.

Oh sorry that one guy in your private duelyard can perform crazy insiders at 13 ping. I guess side stabbing should be totally obsolete in a duel setting.

If players significantly better than you find that the parry is unresponsive then you should probably listen to them

You’re right for the wrong reason. The parties were unresponsive, but that is a separate issue. Making parry boxes larger fixes the issue as a side effect. We’re not arguing the bug was good, we’re saying the game mechanic was a good.

@Digganob said:

Thanks for the explanation. Well, that settles it, it ain't a problem with parry boxes being too small, it's a bug. A separate issue. Parry boxes could be made small, and this issue could be fixed separately.

Go ahead and try fixing it, modding the combat is an option

I do want to mod actually, but I have yet to find any good resources or tutorials to change anything involving actual combat. If I could I would. Also, a bug inherent to parrying is likely to be beyond my ability to mod.

If they can do a fancy trick to get around the parry box, so can I dude. That's my point, they're dumbing down gameplay.

Nothing says intelligent gameplay than hitting through each other's parries, go play call of duty if you want to kill people in 2 seconds with minimal effort

You might be misunderstanding me. If you did, sorry. I was meaning that if I could, for instance, trick you into partying too high, and hit you in the legs, that requires skill, and not only can you counter it, you can do it too. I wasn’t saying the bug was a “fancy trick”.

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  • 27 Nov '19
 Digganob

@yourenemiesfriend said:

@Stouty said:
Nothing says intelligent gameplay than hitting through each other's parries, go play call of duty if you want to kill people in 2 seconds with minimal effort

Nothing says intelligent human like having over 1000 hours at the time yet still thinking the game was literally finished in March.

Screenshot (82).png\

Embarrasssing.

Hey now, don’t start insulting people. We’re trying to reach an agreement here, not proving who has the biggest metaphorical dick. He misunderstood me, and the argument he thought I was making was that the bug was good, which would be pretty dumb. Though I think he could tone his attitude down a little.

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  • 27 Nov '19
 EatAtRedLobster

I would say it is obvious that no-one here is arguing in favor of bugs. Just against the way some of them are fixed.

I tried the new patch out last night and I didn't find there to be any "Oh no they patched out my favorite gimmick" drop in my performance. Just a less enjoyable game.

Before this patch I could identify a player who was weak on certain aspects of his defense and do things like curve side stabs around and in on him because he would leave me an opening. It was obviously readable because it could and would be reliably defended against by specific players with stronger side defense.

After dueling in this new patch last night it now feels pointless to even attempt it. I may as well just throw every attack dead center and make zero attempts at any kind of subtlety because the new and improved Biggie Sized™ force field will compensate for my opponents poor defense.

With these new turncaps/parrybox changes it feels like being forced to try to play pool without using english. Straight line center of cue ball at medium speed. Every shot.

The same game but 50% less enjoyable.

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  • 27 Nov '19
 yourenemiesfriend

I used to see hits go through my parries like 1% of the time. So much better now that I see my sword go directly into peoples exposed sides without doing any damage like 80% of the time. What a massive improvement.

I'm so done with this game and these developers.

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  • 27 Nov '19
 Digganob

You know there’s sort of something I’ve noticed. Most of the time for most games, the developers are too scared to try anything really different. If they do it’s because nearly every player wants it. Otherwise, small changes to balance, and that’s about it.

Then there are games like DOTA2, where the guy that makes the patches is batshit insane, and constantly makes drastic balance changes, and adds new mechanics every few months, with the meta changing every couple of them.

Compare that to League of Legends, where every hero is a variant of the same few archetypes. Balance changes are few and small. The gameplay never changes meaningfully.

I’d compare Mordhau to League.

Weapons are barely different, with the only reason to choose one over another is to make something a bit easier or harder to do. “Skill” in Mordhau is limited to partying at the right time, with offense being random variants on the same thing: making your opponent think an attack is coming when it isn’t. That’s it. There are no differing play styles. There’s no point in doing anything but swinging at your opponents midsection. The best possible strategy is just riposting every attack your opponent makes until they run out of stamina.

At the same time, in League, there’s no reason to do anything but the standard meta team build. Each character is just a different flavor of the same few actual play styles. It’s pointless.

There is still skill involved in both games of course, but the same is true for beanbag toss. It just isn’t interesting.

1383 2082

@Stouty said:

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
The all powerful @Stouty has spoken.

Oh sorry that one guy in your private duelyard can perform crazy insiders at 13 ping. I guess side stabbing should be totally obsolete in a duel setting.

If players significantly better than you find that the parry is unresponsive then you should probably listen to them

@Digganob said:

Thanks for the explanation. Well, that settles it, it ain't a problem with parry boxes being too small, it's a bug. A separate issue. Parry boxes could be made small, and this issue could be fixed separately.

Go ahead and try fixing it, modding the combat is an option

If they can do a fancy trick to get around the parry box, so can I dude. That's my point, they're dumbing down gameplay.

Nothing says intelligent gameplay than hitting through each other's parries, go play call of duty if you want to kill people in 2 seconds with minimal effort

You failed to read through any of our points and are giving Giru level responses. I totally agree parry is unresponsive and it's especially unresponsive in team play. Because parry turn cap was increased and it had already been too high.

Parry turn cap is what makes parry and shields feel unresponsive... not the size of the parry box.

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  • 29 Nov '19
 Quenquent

I've already told @Digganob how I don't believe "simply jumping" was the go-to easy counter for toedrags, due to stamina consumption and how it does not guarantee a free hit.

But now that you shown all of your arguments, I have to agree with you on how this is fixing the symptoms and not the problem. The issue with toedrag is how the attack is pretty much "overhead-look away from opponent to hit their toe with the very-end of my attack". In-short : a counter-intuitive move like wessex.

As someone that wants to see balance going closer to more diverse block radius (because parrying a stab on your foot from a Zweilander using a Dagger while standing up is absolutely ridiculous), it really scares me that this might be a band-aid fix that will never be resolved.

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  • 29 Nov '19
 Digganob

@Quenquentthebabysitter said:
I've already told @Digganob how I don't believe "simply jumping" was the go-to easy counter for toedrags, due to stamina consumption and how it does not guarantee a free hit.

I know that it isn't a guaranteed way to counter that. However, as I said, you can also crouch and parry. I'm just saying that if your opponent knows you're going for something like a toe drag, then jumping can be an easy way to put that tactic down if you become predictable.

But now that you shown all of your arguments, I have to agree with you on how this is fixing the symptoms and not the problem. The issue with toedrag is how the attack is pretty much "overhead-look away from opponent to hit their toe with the very-end of my attack". In-short : a counter-intuitive move like wessex.

As someone that wants to see balance going closer to more diverse block radius (because parrying a stab on your foot from a Zweilander using a Dagger while standing up is absolutely ridiculous), it really scares me that this might be a band-aid fix that will never be resolved.

Thanks for agreeing with me on that. I don't think that things like toe drags should be something you have to train for hours with just to make it work. It should be something that anyone can do, but since the parry box is so large, this reduces it's use to tryhards that everyone hates because they can't do it. It shouldn't be some weird trick, it should be an actual tactic used by normal players.

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  • 10 Dec '19
 Xefferman

This game's terrible now. What drugs are the devs taking? Just another good game thrown in the trash.

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@Xefferman said:
This game's terrible now. What drugs are the devs taking? Just another good game thrown in the trash.

Quite a bit excessive of a statement don’t you think?

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  • 13 Dec '19
 Digganob

@✵ Legate Lanius ✵ said:

@Xefferman said:
This game's terrible now. What drugs are the devs taking? Just another good game thrown in the trash.

Quite a bit excessive of a statement don’t you think?

Yeah I don't know about "terrible" or "now". The game has always been fun, so it's not really terrible. But it's definitely always had flaws, so saying it's terrible "now" is wrong. The gameplay is the same as it's always been, it's just insignificant changes to balance so far.

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@Digganob said:

@✵ Legate Lanius ✵ said:

@Xefferman said:
This game's terrible now. What drugs are the devs taking? Just another good game thrown in the trash.

Quite a bit excessive of a statement don’t you think?

Yeah I don't know about "terrible" or "now". The game has always been fun, so it's not really terrible. But it's definitely always had flaws, so saying it's terrible "now" is wrong. The gameplay is the same as it's always been, it's just insignificant changes to balance so far.

It’s like any game, some don’t like a change and it’s the end of the universe.

Personnally I played for about 1month after release, then stopped.

Since they added Invasion mode, it’s been more fun. I do wish they were more maps and various objectives but it’s a small tea and I can only respect this little gem they made.

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  • 13 Dec '19
 esturias

We're still far away from that "gem", that would be a tiny bit overinflated, especially when compared with any game that isn't just a half-assed release.
What we can respect them for is creating a really solid and motivated foundation with a lot of potential to turn into something really worth remembering.
But to this very day they still fail miserably to properly build on top of that foundation...

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@esturias said:
We're still far away from that "gem", that would be a tiny bit overinflated, especially when compared with every game that isn't just a half-assed release.
What we can respect them for is creating a really solid and motivated foundation with a lot of potential to turn into something really worth remembering.
But to this very day they still fail miserably to properly build on top of that foundation...

This isn’t a AAA studio or a sub based game where you’ll get new content at a faster pace.
I said little gem, simply because the game is still really fun and besides Chiv no other game dive deep into medieval melee combat. Other games that tried either felt lacking or just can’t compare to both chiv/mordhau