Mordhau

The Parry Hitbox Change in Patch #14 is a Bad Idea

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  • 1
  • 25 Nov
 Digganob

I find it extremely telling that the reason for increasing the vertical hitbox is because certain attacks are avoiding the hitbox, specifically, toe stabs and overhead drags. Why are these attacks even a problem? A very easy and simple counter to these is simply jumping. Someone keeps on making unavoidable leg attacks? Just fucking jump. You not only completely avoid damage, but also get a free hit on your opponent. I find no reason this change needs to happen.

Now, the reason I find this change telling, is that it's another example of the gameplay being more about timing your attacks than anything. Defense is simply right clicking at the right time, making it extremely boring. And attacking strategies boil down to making it harder for your opponent to right click at the right time, also very uninteresting. This change is yet another step towards bland gameplay.

An alternative to this is making parries much harder to aim. If this was the case, gameplay wouldn't just be timing, you'd have to aim your attacks, trick your opponent into defending the wrong way rather than the wrong time. This would make gameplay less about waiting till your opponent runs out of stamina, or spamming feints until you finally get a hit. Because that's what the current state of the game is. Either you use an insanely fast and tricky weapon like the rapier or bastard sword, and hope they time their parry wrong, or you just wait until their weapon flies out of their hand. This makes the game really damn boring when in a more controlled environment like in competitive dueling.

This game could continue the way it's going, and it would probably be fine. And honestly, it is really good, and it's fun, when compared to other similar games. But it would be fantastic, if the devs didn't balance the game around clicking at the right time, and actually about offensive and defensive strategies, risky maneuvers, dodging attacks, and trying for otherwise useless attacks, like swings at the legs. But right now, all you do is flail around wildly hoping you can catch your opponent off guard because they thought an attack was coming sooner than it did.

Also, it's a bad sign that instead of a fixing a bug by targeting the root, they instead opt to change an entirely separate mechanic that affects normal gameplay. Think about that. They're treating the symptoms, not the disease. They're sacrificing interesting gameplay to fix a bug.

What the hell.

Please, argue with me about this, I honestly hope I can get you all to agree with me, and maybe improve the game. If you want more details into how a version of Mordhau balanced around smaller parries would be balanced, ask me. I have a list of changes that would need to be done in order to make this balanced, changing everything from stamina economy to weapon turncaps.

Here's a google doc that shows the changes I want to make, and why. Leave comments if you have questions, but check out the "scenarios changed by these changes" section first: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NCiHuQ2iD6RAyeKNVWL3tVmJOkvss9Il1uwhkXFJmi4/edit?usp=sharing

P.S.
This issue has troubled me for a while, and I was hoping to eventually make my own mod to fix these issues I have with the game. So if anyone knows of any tutorials or modding resources that could allow me to change weapon values like parry hitboxes, I would greatly appreciate it if you'd link them. I find it unlikely I can convince the majority of the playerbase or the devs through words alone, so my own modded server would be both my best chance, and the only way I and others who agree with me could play this ideal of Mordhau.

Empress 380 891
  • 25 Nov
 Soulcatcher

Foot drags were not even an issue bro

Get the odd weird one but just looking down and parrying, or jumping as you mentioned worked fine. And it is a powerful drag.

Can still do it in my 50 odd minutes of earlier gameplay but felt harder and not sure if opponenet was just fucking up their parries.

I literally just can't comprehend why they want to basically nerf drags, make parrys and chambers even easier than they were before and just turn the whole gameplay into a spam feint morph fucking gamble stamina fest

over it

revert this

69 56
  • 25 Nov
 Digganob

@Soulcatcher said:
Foot drags were not even an issue bro

Get the odd weird one but just looking down and parrying, or jumping as you mentioned worked fine. And it is a powerful drag.

Can still do it in my 50 odd minutes of earlier gameplay but felt harder and not sure if opponenet was just fucking up their parries.

I literally just can't comprehend why they want to basically nerf drags, make parrys and chambers even easier than they were before and just turn the whole gameplay into a spam feint morph fucking gamble stamina fest

over it

revert this

Exactly my point.

1159 1814

I must agree with the man named Digganob

Count 185 257

"Play more normal"

Yeah...

362 145

The parrybox was already too big. Lame. Can parry attacks with your butt now.

Conscript 191 477
  • 26 Nov
 Shovonem

I mean we've had reduced parrybox for quite a while since release and it always felt clunky af. Especially it plague team fights and completely destroy 1 v x in competitive team games. You would see weapons just blatantly going through parry.. feels horrible. then comes some obnoxious waterfall that makes the animation look horrible. Parry changes is probably one of the best since release. The only way I could support existence of lower parrybox is for shield (with removal of telekinesis kick stun) because weapon parry need timing and shield doesn't. Although extended parry (more like telekinesis parry) should be removed.

Knight 936 949
  • 26 Nov
 afiNity

The parry box was already too big and I expected them to make it smaller.
I almost punched the monitor when I saw that they made it even bigger now.
Now they put even more focus on reaction-based gameplay and aiming your attacks becomes even more useless.
I can't

1159 1814

NOT ONLY did they make parry box smaller... but they made parry turn cap tighter. So if an attack is coming to your side... you physically cannot turn your parry over in time.

This buffed parry box in dueling, but will make parry clunkier in 1vX situations where you're flanked.

They should have done the opposite, loosen parry turn cap and make the actual parrybox smaller.

Duchess 790 3483
  • 26 Nov
 Stouty

Would love for some of these theorycrafting joes to go 5 minutes in a duelyard with Frank insidering them, might change their tune about the parry being too big

1576 1630

Correct me if I'm wrong. But shouldn't insiders work independent of the size of the parry box? I always imagined it as the attack starting inside of the hitbox and therefore ignoring the parry box.
I thought size didn't matter. ;)

6 39
  • 26 Nov
 Voco

Reducing the skill ceiling is a universally BAD IDEA, please decrease the parrybox and REMOVE it from the legs entirely. I don't mind getting thrashed by a highly skilled player that can expertly manipulate the game mechanics, that's part of what makes the game fun.

69 56
  • 26 Nov
 Digganob

@Stouty said:
Would love for some of these theorycrafting joes to go 5 minutes in a duelyard with Frank insidering them, might change their tune about the parry being too big

I could not give less of a shit how much harder it is to fight if parry boxes were smaller, because if it's easier for someone else to fight me, it will be easier for me to fight them. If they can do a fancy trick to get around the parry box, so can I dude. That's my point, they're dumbing down gameplay. Also what in tarnation is "insidering".

Knight 239 540
  • 1
  • 26 Nov
 Duckalot

@Digganob said:

@Stouty said:
Would love for some of these theorycrafting joes to go 5 minutes in a duelyard with Frank insidering them, might change their tune about the parry being too big

Also what in tarnation is "insidering".

When the parry box is too small, people can manage to start their attacks behind it, visibly already inside the opponent. The result is an unparryable attack and plenty of "ground sniffing".

69 56
  • 26 Nov
 Digganob

@Duckalot said:

@Digganob said:

@Stouty said:
Would love for some of these theorycrafting joes to go 5 minutes in a duelyard with Frank insidering them, might change their tune about the parry being too big

Also what in tarnation is "insidering".

When the parry box is too small, people can manage to start their attacks behind it, visibly already inside the opponent. The result is an unparryable attack and plenty of "ground sniffing".

Thanks for the explanation. Well, that settles it, it ain't a problem with parry boxes being too small, it's a bug. A separate issue. Parry boxes could be made small, and this issue could be fixed separately.

69 56
  • 26 Nov
 Digganob

@Shovonem said:
I mean we've had reduced parrybox for quite a while since release and it always felt clunky af. Especially it plague team fights and completely destroy 1 v x in competitive team games. You would see weapons just blatantly going through parry.. feels horrible. then comes some obnoxious waterfall that makes the animation look horrible. Parry changes is probably one of the best since release. The only way I could support existence of lower parrybox is for shield (with removal of telekinesis kick stun) because weapon parry need timing and shield doesn't. Although extended parry (more like telekinesis parry) should be removed.

The thing is, this is a problem with skill, not a random thing. If you properly aim your parries, it's a non issue. If it's not a problem with skill, then it's a bug and can be fixed separately. And also, keep in mind that 1vx's should almost always result in a loss for the 1 if everyone is of roughly equal skill. If 1vx's regularly result in a win for the 1, there is something seriously wrong with the game.

Also, if parry hitboxes were reduced, wouldn't that actually make 1vx's easier? If it's easier to hit your attackers, this would make them more hesitant to just simply rush you and easily parry any attack you throw. Smaller parry boxes would actually make these fights easier to deal with. Also, I never said anything about removing the bonus size you get to the parry box when parrying two attacks in a row.

Bugs can be fixed. And remember, if it's easier for your opponent to hit you, it's easier for you to hit them. A reduction in parry box size would apply to everyone, not just you. If it feels difficult to parry things because of this, everyone else would feel the exact same. A change like this doesn't make the game unbalanced, it makes it more complex.

69 56
  • 26 Nov
 Digganob

@afiNity said:
and aiming your attacks becomes even more useless.

Exactly. They're dumbing down the gameplay.

Knight 46 47

the game fucking sucks without drags

fuck this

1159 1814

The all powerful @Stouty has spoken.

Oh sorry that one guy in your private duelyard can perform crazy insiders at 13 ping. I guess side stabbing should be totally obsolete in a duel setting.

Not like it was ever a very viable playstyle in Mordau to begin with, right? Shields too, they need it just as much if not more.

Let's also jack up parry turn cap since that other one guy in your duelyard can still 360 turn after a misparry in light armor. Who cares if that makes parry clunkier in 1vX.

Next we'll ask Giru to demean us and for Crush to add another cheesy meme weapon... How about a 3 headed, 2 shot flail that's balanced by not being able to combo...

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  • 26 Nov
 SoRoofless

If jumping is superior then simply continue to jump and your gameplay can continue to be as you like it. Meanwhile it seems they have removed a nuisance for high level play.