Mordhau

Friendly Fire Bombs, Constructions, Cata, Griefers

675 285
  • 8
  • 25 Nov '19
 PC_Principal

First the suggestions, then a long rant once again. There's no penalty for destroying friendly structures. That HAS to change. The game doesn't tell you, that you're doing something wrong, therefore noobs think it's no big deal and trolls abuse it.

Proposal 1: Firebombs shouldn't damage villagers in invasion mode. They're too easily thrown inside windows.
Proposal 2: Display the Engineer's name (link) when aiming at structures within 10m radius. (Identify griefing Engineers)
Proposal 3: Add negative points for destroying friendly structures or statics people were recently using. If nobody is using the structure (cata, ballista), the damage should still count as friendly structure damage, when it has been used by a friendly in the past 10 seconds. When it's used by an enemy the timer is cancelled and you're free to destroy it until the next teammate tries using it.

Penalties:
Walls / Spike: -25
Toolbox Ballista: -200
Static Ballista: -100
Normal Teamkill: -200
Catapult: -500

Yesterday I had 2 catas and 3 ballista firebombed by teammates. Another time, some idiot told me to stop doing kick votes when I saw a guy trying to kill me with ballista and steal my horse on crossroad.
Then some teammate comes along and throws a firebomb on my ballista on mountain pass, I didn't realize yet I have to stay inside the fire to take more damage so my kick vote is more likely to succeed. That's pretty stupid.
I'm playing cata, some idiot comes along and kicks me off like always, not giving the cata away unless I kill them. When I fight them, they rather firebomb their own cata than letting someone else use it.
Some guy always says: "We need builders" on invasion mode but when I play builder I'm getting kicked for trying to vote kick people that mess with my structures. They're baiting me into attacking them and their actions have too little consequence in points.

1387 1046
  • 25 Nov '19
 esturias

You should know by now that this is entirely futile. We have a whole forum full of feedback and good and complex suggestions, but the devs still don't care. Save those efforts for the day that changes or put it into something else...

Knight 284 592
  • 25 Nov '19
 Duckalot

There is another side of the coin. What about when the griefers are using the toolbox or even a catapult to barricade?
Then the regular players will be punished for trying to break out.

Keep the suggestions coming! They are appreciated. But dont forget to consider the cons of them too.

1387 1046
  • 25 Nov '19
 esturias

@Duckalot said:
Keep the suggestions coming! They are appreciated.

Now you only have to tell us by whom or what. Because you obviously can't mean the devs or the rest of the team.

Knight 284 592
  • 1
  • 25 Nov '19
 Duckalot

The community needs suggestions. Once in a while there are good ones that are considered and added. If people start dismissing every suggestion instantly, then soon noone will bother try to improve the game. You gotta dig through a lot of dirt if you want to find gold.

The devs not answering these topics is not an indication that they think the suggestions are bad or that they dont care.

675 285
  • 25 Nov '19
 PC_Principal

@Duckalot said:
There is another side of the coin. What about when the griefers are using the toolbox or even a catapult to barricade?
Then the regular players will be punished for trying to break out.

Keep the suggestions coming! They are appreciated. But dont forget to consider the cons of them too.

This is why they should display the engineer's name so we can more easily identify griefing builders.

Knight 284 592
  • 25 Nov '19
 Duckalot

@PC_Principal said:

@Duckalot said:
There is another side of the coin. What about when the griefers are using the toolbox or even a catapult to barricade?
Then the regular players will be punished for trying to break out.

Keep the suggestions coming! They are appreciated. But dont forget to consider the cons of them too.

This is why they should display the engineer's name so we can more easily identify griefing builders.

Yea i agree. But you are still punishing regular players who destroys the griefers buildings.

1387 1046
  • 25 Nov '19
 esturias

@Duckalot said:
The devs not answering these topics is not an indication that they think the suggestions are bad or that they dont care.

But the devs not answering ANY topic, let alone implementing ANY of the hundreds of suggestions, ideas (even tiny ones) and tons of feedback that has ended up on this forum, is an indication that the devs think about many things, but not about the progress or quality of the game.

I know, you are meant to say all that for appearance's sake, but... sorry. That doesn't work anymore. Just look around. Honesty is what may sort out the mess again... or at least keep the horse alive a little longer.
That said, maybe you can tell us about some feedback that the devs actually cared about? And no, I'm not talking about things like the removal of the mortar on Feitoria. I never expected a "fix" that soon after release, so they got a brownie point for that, but that would be the least of things to expect.

675 285
  • 25 Nov '19
 PC_Principal

Yea the devs are paid to develop the game, not read thousands of forum threads and have to sort it out... and the lonely community manager LuxCandidus is lonely. They're counting on us to make good suggestions busy threads and well we're failing at that. So BTT:

Destroying a teammate's ballista should be punished, unless it's been used by enemy players.
We don't really care about walls or spikes that much, could make it just 10 a piece so it really doesn't matter but not 0. Besides, you don't have to fully destroy walls and spikes in order to get free.

Knight 284 592
  • 25 Nov '19
 Duckalot

@esturias said:

@Duckalot said:
The devs not answering these topics is not an indication that they think the suggestions are bad or that they dont care.

But the devs not answering ANY topic, let alone implementing ANY of the hundreds of suggestions, ideas (even tiny ones) and tons of feedback that has ended up on this forum, is an indication that the devs think about many things, but not about the progress or quality of the game.

I know, you are meant to say all that for appearance's sake, but... sorry. That doesn't work anymore. Just look around. Honesty is what may sort out the mess again... or at least keep the horse alive a little longer.
That said, maybe you can tell us about some feedback that the devs actually cared about? And no, I'm not talking about things like the removal of the mortar on Feitoria. I never expected a "fix" that soon after release, so they got a brownie point for that, but that would be the least of things to expect.

Here are the changes that i know for sure came from the community feedback and suggestions. And this was only from THIS 1 patch.

-Substantial CPU optimizations across the board to improve overall FPS and remove stutters and hitches during gameplay, especially on larger player counts
-Optimized and improved loading times
Reworked Feitoria Invasion layout
-Disabled dodging with barrels
-King-type objectives (Invasion) are now invulnerable until the first player could've possessed them (prevents rushing to take advantage of AI)
-Parry/Chamber box is now bigger - now significantly wider horizontally, fixing cases of attacks going through parries. Now always covers the legs and feet vertically, this fixes the broken toe stabs and makes it much easier to deal with overhead drags to the legs. - also affects shields, although less. Parry knockback reduced slightly
-Parry turncap slightly more strict
-Miss recovery is now based on weapon length and speed or “weight” - this means that short one handed weapons now have significantly less miss recovery, making them much more nimble and lighter in use. Longer weapons have more, making misses more punishing.
-Huntsman now works differently and is no longer based on quiver, now only applies to enemies with a bow/crossbow in hand. This means that when switching to a melee weapon from a ranged weapon, after 4 seconds you no longer take the huntsman bonus damage, allowing archers to go melee without being oneshot from huntsman.
-Fixed active parry blocking from behind
-Plate leg armor now doubles kick damage
-Kicks no longer have headshot damage
-Kicks no longer drain stamina
-Players with the same name will now get a sequential number appended to the name, preventing confusion and abuse
-Added m.ShowServerInScoreboard (also found in options) which allows to disable the name showing up on scoreboard, useful to prevent stream sniping
-Friendly bear traps now show a marker when near
-Chain coat now takes metal color
-Fixed motion blur settings on Feitoria

Knight 284 592
  • 25 Nov '19
 Duckalot

@PC_Principal said:
Yea the devs are paid to develop the game, not read thousands of forum threads and have to sort it out... and the lonely community manager LuxCandidus is lonely. They're counting on us to make good suggestions busy threads and well we're failing at that. So BTT:

Destroying a teammate's ballista should be punished, unless it's been used by enemy players.
We don't really care about walls or spikes that much, could make it just 10 a piece so it really doesn't matter but not 0. Besides, you don't have to fully destroy walls and spikes in order to get free.

Yea, destroying the friendly ballistas should definitely be punishable, and blocking the user so he cant shoot with it aswell.
While you are right that you dont have to fully destroy the spikes/walls to get out, it becomes pretty much impossible to escape, should the griefer repair the buildables when you are hitting them.
And again, im not trying to shut your idea down. Keep thinking about a solution! Conflict breeds creativity.

675 285
  • 7
  • 27 Nov '19
 PC_Principal

Hey Duckalot it's all good I appreciate your answers and thoughts. You've been very nice and a good critic. There would be no reason for me to view this as a sort of conflict. I want to help by giving my thoughts and feedback, I'll try to defend and explain them in my own interest. I consider engineers unplayable at this stage and I always kinda liked the class. 2 Beginner Engineers I talked to on public servers also are pretty frustrated with griefing and getting kicked for trying to deal with it by griefing yourself.
Please try playing Engineer for 10 hours as a sort of field study and monitor your blood pressure :>
Maybe we can find any volunteers, come back here and tell me how your experience was.
But I want you to realize: It's people's fault, not structure's fault. Griefing engineers need to be kicked quickly or they'll single handedly ruin the game. You fixed the worst spots in grad and mountain peak which is good, but especially grad and feitoria can still be griefed easily. If there was a penalty for destroying friendly walls or spikes, there also needs to be a way to identify which structures are friendly and which aren't, and also who built them, so people can vote kick the bad engineers more quickly rather than everyone with a toolbox in hand.

Another Idea: Maybe just display

Friendly structure damage: 364

in a vote kick just below the team damage %.

But say I was about to troll you and build you in, you'd have to destroy 2 of my walls to get out, you won't lose significant points either way. 10-25 points for destroying a structure doesn't seem like a big deal, you can still destroy some spikes or walls you dislike and get away with it. If I were to repair them, in the long term there would be witnesses to the process and I'll probably get kicked for it. I can't make this 100% vote kick proof but neither can you.

Maybe it would make sense to only punish people, if they do the last hit on the structures that removes them entirely, but this again could be abused by people hitting stuff and making the builder repair it over and over. Many things can be used to troll, all it takes is to say "sorry misclick" after you threw a firebomb on a friendly engineer in order not to get kicked.

About the Cata:

If someone would be using the catapult to block, that person and his cata probably won't live long, because many people are going for the cata after respawn and they can see the location on the map. They'd get kicked rather quickly aswell if multiple people complain in teamchat, trying to kick.

The bigger Issue to me is, if you throw a firebomb on a friendly catapult user, you'll get points for structure damage rather than losing them for friendly structure damage because the player is forced off the cata and can't get back on. The "last user" needs to set a flag on the cata that lasts for some seconds to really punish catapult griefing. Also we need at least a x5 multiplier on the current friendly structure damage penalty of catapult. Right now, it's just -100 like killing a friendly by accident. A little oops but nobody is gonna care if you have 5-10 kills. You'll get more teamdamage playing the cata than the guy burning you and he's getting positive points for burning it if you choose to escape the fire. The catapult is more important than a single peasant.

Sellsword 792 2346
  • 3 Dec '19
 Goof

@esturias said:
But the devs not answering ANY topic, let alone implementing ANY of the hundreds of suggestions, ideas (even tiny ones)

But they added friendly bear trap markers(finally)

675 285
  • 1
  • 9 Dec '19
 PC_Principal

Yea, esturias, I used to agree with you more before I left for 3 months. Now you are all frustrated about development speed and that's all you talk about, devs are doing nothing bla bla. But honestly, try playing another game for a while and then come back to a new map and a load of bug fixes and balance fixes. It will change your mind and you'll start appreciating the changes.
You can't expect them to be as good as the rust devs pushing scheduled updates every 2 weeks (garry is the man!), and even they had people crying in their forum about there being too few updates for the better half of 2 years after the remake, resulting in a bigger dev team and update schedule.
There's a german proverb saying translated: "Good things are allowed to take their time". In other words: If you rush stuff, you'll end up making stupid mistakes and less thought and consideration goes into what you're doing.
I'm cool with the devs taking the time they need to release somewhat solid content.
Another factor you're not taking into account, when you're asking for a bigger dev team, is that programmers often have trust issues. They won't show the full code to newcomers, in fear they might copy it and do their own game with parts of your work in disguise. At least that's what I experienced in modding communities (SA:MP, V:MP), it was very hard to build a team of 3 programmers working together because they all had different ways of coding and different opinions on what is optimal, from the database to the forum software...

1387 1046
  • 9 Dec '19
 esturias

Not even once have I complained about developement speed. What I complained about was the developement quality and the complete lack of communication, so that you still get disappointed a lot, even if you wait and are patient for a long time.
And I did exactly what you wrote: Come back after a few weeks to enjoy a new map - just that their maps rarely are very enjoyable at release. Or... in general. Same old issues, same (fig.) dead old wood everywhere.

@Duckalot said:
Here are the changes that i know for sure came from the community feedback and suggestions. And this was only from THIS 1 patch.

Yes, that patch wasn't bad, even though I didn't test its features in detail yet. A few long overdue changes, a few questionable ones and a few simple fixes.
But that doesn't change much about what I wrote before: There is still ZERO communication, so that players still have no clue what is going on and their feedback rots in the depths of the forum. And there still is such an awful lot to fix and to improve, that this "Let's change a funny little number here and there..." doesn't work anymore. They need to have some kind of overall clue about where they want to go, but I don't see that at all, yet.

675 285
  • 4
  • 10 Dec '19
 PC_Principal

You're absolutely right about the lack of communication, but I'm not a stranger to that, seen that in countless games.
We'll have to talk to each other first and come up with good solutions together. But I disagree at Quality, I'd rate development quality average. I've seen better, but also much worse.
Sometimes the devs only talk to a hand picked bunch of "pro" players (or experienced, old school beta players) and that might be enough in some cases. However, the perspective of new players gets lost that way.
So while some changes may be approved by the old guard, they might be bad for newcomers. (bloodlust? shameless plug)
They're eventually gonna implement a small percenteage of our suggestions, but only if they're 100% sure it's worth the work.
Anyway I get you now, however you don't seem to get the effort that is programming a game, especially in a coordinated git with multiple devs. It's way more than changing a number here and there. This is also why a developer has very little time to visit and read the forums or personally respond to feedback.