Mordhau

The Chamber paradox

124 44
  • 22 Sep
 Tr0gledyte

When doing some research, you'll find that the consensus is chambering costs a ton of stamina, and therefore is really only a good counter for opponents that feint a lot. The theory is that, when your opponent feints, your "chamber" becomes just a regular attack that hits him.

Except one tiny little problem: to chamber an attack, you need to start an attack of your own right when your opponent is about to hit you. Similar to the parry window. And when an opponent is right about to hit you, he can't feint anymore! If you start your chamber early enough to punish a feint, it's not a chamber, it's just a gamble that your opponent will feint, and if he doesn't you will be punished for it.

So exactly what is chambering useful for?

1394 3951

chamber > morph > accel = win

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@Tr0gledyte said:
Except one tiny little problem: to chamber an attack, you need to start an attack of your own right when your opponent is about to hit you. Similar to the parry window. And when an opponent is right about to hit you, he can't feint anymore! If you start your chamber early enough to punish a feint, it's not a chamber, it's just a gamble that your opponent will feint, and if he doesn't you will be punished for it.

This theory is based around humans having a near 0ms reaction time, which we don't, and the chamber window lasting only for 1-2 frames, which it doesn't.

The decision-making moment of whether or not to input a chamber doesn't occur a single frame before you get hit. It's much sooner, while the enemy is still in his wind-up phase. If you decide to attempt a chamber that doesn't mean you'll immediately input one. It means you will input one a few hundred milliseconds from now.

Then there's the chamber window during which it'll absorb the enemy's attack. It lasts for a few hundred milliseconds as well.

Bottom line being that just because chambers only work during the enemy's attack's release phase doesn't mean they're decided at that same time. No human on earth has that low of a reaction time. It's not really a gamble any more at that point and if the enemy doesn't feint you can always ftp to recover from a mistimed chamber attempt.

124 44

@Shitscrubber64 said:

@Tr0gledyte said:
Except one tiny little problem: to chamber an attack, you need to start an attack of your own right when your opponent is about to hit you. Similar to the parry window. And when an opponent is right about to hit you, he can't feint anymore! If you start your chamber early enough to punish a feint, it's not a chamber, it's just a gamble that your opponent will feint, and if he doesn't you will be punished for it.

This theory is based around humans having a near 0ms reaction time, which we don't, and the chamber window lasting only for 1-2 frames, which it doesn't.

The decision-making moment of whether or not to input a chamber doesn't occur a single frame before you get hit. It's much sooner, while the enemy is still in his wind-up phase. If you decide to attempt a chamber that doesn't mean you'll immediately input one. It means you will input one a few hundred milliseconds from now.

Then there's the chamber window during which it'll absorb the enemy's attack. It lasts for a few hundred milliseconds as well.

Bottom line being that just because chambers only work during the enemy's attack's release phase doesn't mean they're decided at that same time. No human on earth has that low of a reaction time. It's not really a gamble any more at that point and if the enemy doesn't feint you can always ftp to recover from a mistimed chamber attempt.

The chamber window is the same as the parry window. And the decision to parry an attack is made after its release, unless you panic. You also need to match the attack angle to chamber, making it much more difficult to pull off than a parry, thus more time consuming.

The only chambers I ever see happening @ Platinum level are stab chambers which are easy to pull off. Trying to chamber a swing, especially with all the dragging going around, is risky and the best case scenario is a single hit.. riposting is a simpler and safer option.

So to me it seems chambers are only useful for stabs. Although, chamber, morph and accel unfortunately doesn't work on rapier stab spammers. They're too fast.

Knight 7759 14272
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@Tr0gledyte said:

@Shitscrubber64 said:

@Tr0gledyte said:
Except one tiny little problem: to chamber an attack, you need to start an attack of your own right when your opponent is about to hit you. Similar to the parry window. And when an opponent is right about to hit you, he can't feint anymore! If you start your chamber early enough to punish a feint, it's not a chamber, it's just a gamble that your opponent will feint, and if he doesn't you will be punished for it.

This theory is based around humans having a near 0ms reaction time, which we don't, and the chamber window lasting only for 1-2 frames, which it doesn't.

The decision-making moment of whether or not to input a chamber doesn't occur a single frame before you get hit. It's much sooner, while the enemy is still in his wind-up phase. If you decide to attempt a chamber that doesn't mean you'll immediately input one. It means you will input one a few hundred milliseconds from now.

Then there's the chamber window during which it'll absorb the enemy's attack. It lasts for a few hundred milliseconds as well.

Bottom line being that just because chambers only work during the enemy's attack's release phase doesn't mean they're decided at that same time. No human on earth has that low of a reaction time. It's not really a gamble any more at that point and if the enemy doesn't feint you can always ftp to recover from a mistimed chamber attempt.

The chamber window is the same as the parry window. And the decision to parry an attack is made after its release, unless you panic. You also need to match the attack angle to chamber, making it much more difficult to pull off than a parry, thus more time consuming.

The only chambers I ever see happening @ Platinum level are stab chambers which are easy to pull off. Trying to chamber a swing, especially with all the dragging going around, is risky and the best case scenario is a single hit.. riposting is a simpler and safer option.

So to me it seems chambers are only useful for stabs. Although, chamber, morph and accel unfortunately doesn't work on rapier stab spammers. They're too fast.

Chamber's window is actually quite generous. I use chambering enough to see how efficient it is against feints. You get screwed if the opponent morph/drag tho. Yes, stab chamber are easy and that's why you sometimes hear people laughing at the concept of feinting stabs.

The decision to chamber, however, is more done a few seconds after the opponent start attacking. You can generally chamber as long as you didn't release yourself. On top of that, knowing that you can at worst chamber an attack makes punishing feints feel more safe. Chambering is one of the reasons I like Mordhau and why I didn't catch up with Chivalry, since you aren't as vulnerable to feint spammers.

124 44

@Quenquentthebabysitter said:

@Tr0gledyte said:

@Shitscrubber64 said:

@Tr0gledyte said:
Except one tiny little problem: to chamber an attack, you need to start an attack of your own right when your opponent is about to hit you. Similar to the parry window. And when an opponent is right about to hit you, he can't feint anymore! If you start your chamber early enough to punish a feint, it's not a chamber, it's just a gamble that your opponent will feint, and if he doesn't you will be punished for it.

This theory is based around humans having a near 0ms reaction time, which we don't, and the chamber window lasting only for 1-2 frames, which it doesn't.

The decision-making moment of whether or not to input a chamber doesn't occur a single frame before you get hit. It's much sooner, while the enemy is still in his wind-up phase. If you decide to attempt a chamber that doesn't mean you'll immediately input one. It means you will input one a few hundred milliseconds from now.

Then there's the chamber window during which it'll absorb the enemy's attack. It lasts for a few hundred milliseconds as well.

Bottom line being that just because chambers only work during the enemy's attack's release phase doesn't mean they're decided at that same time. No human on earth has that low of a reaction time. It's not really a gamble any more at that point and if the enemy doesn't feint you can always ftp to recover from a mistimed chamber attempt.

The chamber window is the same as the parry window. And the decision to parry an attack is made after its release, unless you panic. You also need to match the attack angle to chamber, making it much more difficult to pull off than a parry, thus more time consuming.

The only chambers I ever see happening @ Platinum level are stab chambers which are easy to pull off. Trying to chamber a swing, especially with all the dragging going around, is risky and the best case scenario is a single hit.. riposting is a simpler and safer option.

So to me it seems chambers are only useful for stabs. Although, chamber, morph and accel unfortunately doesn't work on rapier stab spammers. They're too fast.

Chamber's window is actually quite generous. I use chambering enough to see how efficient it is against feints. You get screwed if the opponent morph/drag tho. Yes, stab chamber are easy and that's why you sometimes hear people laughing at the concept of feinting stabs.

The decision to chamber, however, is more done a few seconds after the opponent start attacking. You can generally chamber as long as you didn't release yourself. On top of that, knowing that you can at worst chamber an attack makes punishing feints feel more safe. Chambering is one of the reasons I like Mordhau and why I didn't catch up with Chivalry, since you aren't as vulnerable to feint spammers.

Still sounds like a high-risk move with a relatively low reward. You say you "at worst" chamber an attack, but in reality, at worst your chamber fails due to a morph/drag, or missed timing. And if your chamber succeeds your opponent can still parry it in some situations, meaning you just lost stamina.

I used to feint stabs a lot because it works wonders against noobs, but noticed better players would stab back at me and hit me. Then I caught on and realized I could feint my stab to bait them into stabbing, then chamber their stab and morph it into an overhead accel to get them. Works wonders unless they're in facehugging range. I still can't see a worthwhile application for chambering swings, though..

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@Tr0gledyte said:

I used to feint stabs a lot because it works wonders against noobs, but noticed better players would stab back at me and hit me. Then I caught on and realized I could feint my stab to bait them into stabbing, then chamber their stab and morph it into an overhead accel to get them. Works wonders unless they're in facehugging range. I still can't see a worthwhile application for chambering swings, though..

My favorite move is to bait a stab chamber. I either chamber>morph/feint their chamber or lean back and dodge so they wasted stamina. Sometimes a micro stab feint followed by a stab accel will bait and beat an opponents chamber much like a dragged stab. Which is why chambering isn't actually a good idea against spam stabbing rapiers or even massive spears.

I love how chambers work in regards to stabbing, where stab feints are difficult to read but easily countered by chambers across all levels. Makes stab feinting less obnoxious than it was in Chivalry yet chambering doesn't nerf stabs because baiting chambers is a valid tactic anyways.

Chambers for slashing though? I don't think they have too much practicality except for chamber morphs/feints when it comes to high levels... They're really risky and stamina costly if you're not gonna land hits as a result of the chamber and people at that level are better off hard reading. Top player swill also change the angle of their after-feint-attack or use a stab and/or use footwork so that they accel and beat your chamber anyways... so chambering slash feints is still very risky at high level.

124 44
  • 23 Sep
 Tr0gledyte

@Lionheart Chevalier said:

@Tr0gledyte said:

I used to feint stabs a lot because it works wonders against noobs, but noticed better players would stab back at me and hit me. Then I caught on and realized I could feint my stab to bait them into stabbing, then chamber their stab and morph it into an overhead accel to get them. Works wonders unless they're in facehugging range. I still can't see a worthwhile application for chambering swings, though..

My favorite move is to bait a stab chamber. I either chamber>morph/feint their chamber or lean back and dodge so they wasted stamina. Sometimes a micro stab feint followed by a stab accel will bait and beat an opponents chamber much like a dragged stab. Which is why chambering isn't actually a good idea against spam stabbing rapiers or even massive spears.

I love how chambers work in regards to stabbing, where stab feints are difficult to read but easily countered by chambers across all levels. Makes stab feinting less obnoxious than it was in Chivalry yet chambering doesn't nerf stabs because baiting chambers is a valid tactic anyways.

Chambers for slashing though? I don't think they have too much practicality except for chamber morphs/feints when it comes to high levels... They're really risky and stamina costly if you're not gonna land hits as a result of the chamber and people at that level are better off hard reading. Top player swill also change the angle of their after-feint-attack or use a stab and/or use footwork so that they accel and beat your chamber anyways... so chambering slash feints is still very risky at high level.

Waaait.. how do you accel a stab? I know you can drag it but isn't a straight stab basically the fastest it gets?

149 74
  • 23 Sep
 NoYou

@Lionheart Chevalier said:

@Tr0gledyte said:

I used to feint stabs a lot because it works wonders against noobs, but noticed better players would stab back at me and hit me. Then I caught on and realized I could feint my stab to bait them into stabbing, then chamber their stab and morph it into an overhead accel to get them. Works wonders unless they're in facehugging range. I still can't see a worthwhile application for chambering swings, though..

My favorite move is to bait a stab chamber. I either chamber>morph/feint their chamber or lean back and dodge so they wasted stamina. Sometimes a micro stab feint followed by a stab accel will bait and beat an opponents chamber much like a dragged stab. Which is why chambering isn't actually a good idea against spam stabbing rapiers or even massive spears.

I love how chambers work in regards to stabbing, where stab feints are difficult to read but easily countered by chambers across all levels. Makes stab feinting less obnoxious than it was in Chivalry yet chambering doesn't nerf stabs because baiting chambers is a valid tactic anyways.

Chambers for slashing though? I don't think they have too much practicality except for chamber morphs/feints when it comes to high levels... They're really risky and stamina costly if you're not gonna land hits as a result of the chamber and people at that level are better off hard reading. Top player swill also change the angle of their after-feint-attack or use a stab and/or use footwork so that they accel and beat your chamber anyways... so chambering slash feints is still very risky at high level.

How do you accel a stab

1154 1807

@Tr0gledyte said:

@Lionheart Chevalier said:

@Tr0gledyte said:

I used to feint stabs a lot because it works wonders against noobs, but noticed better players would stab back at me and hit me. Then I caught on and realized I could feint my stab to bait them into stabbing, then chamber their stab and morph it into an overhead accel to get them. Works wonders unless they're in facehugging range. I still can't see a worthwhile application for chambering swings, though..

My favorite move is to bait a stab chamber. I either chamber>morph/feint their chamber or lean back and dodge so they wasted stamina. Sometimes a micro stab feint followed by a stab accel will bait and beat an opponents chamber much like a dragged stab. Which is why chambering isn't actually a good idea against spam stabbing rapiers or even massive spears.

I love how chambers work in regards to stabbing, where stab feints are difficult to read but easily countered by chambers across all levels. Makes stab feinting less obnoxious than it was in Chivalry yet chambering doesn't nerf stabs because baiting chambers is a valid tactic anyways.

Chambers for slashing though? I don't think they have too much practicality except for chamber morphs/feints when it comes to high levels... They're really risky and stamina costly if you're not gonna land hits as a result of the chamber and people at that level are better off hard reading. Top player swill also change the angle of their after-feint-attack or use a stab and/or use footwork so that they accel and beat your chamber anyways... so chambering slash feints is still very risky at high level.

Waaait.. how do you accel a stab? I know you can drag it but isn't a straight stab basically the fastest it gets?

Aim at the closest part of their body and use the angle of stab that will hit fastest... If they're on your right side a right stab will hit faster than a left stab. If they're looking down, you aim at their face since that's closer... and if they lean back, aim at their legs, etc.

I believe looking down a little helps, too, because it puts your shoulders and stab closer to your opponent, especially if you're using overhead stabs which put the origin of stab even closer... and if they're looking down too it's even better because their head is closer.

50 42
  • 23 Sep
 Kashi

Here is an example of a basic stab accel

You start your stab in the upper right and move your mouse downwards towards your opponents crotch, if you do it right the stabs release starts inside your opponent making it hit the fastest possible time

124 44

@Kashi said:
Here is an example of a basic stab accel

You start your stab in the upper right and move your mouse downwards towards your opponents crotch, if you do it right the stabs release starts inside your opponent making it hit the fastest possible time

I'm sorry but both of you have it wrong. If you simply point the stab right at your opponent, its release also starts inside your opponent if they are within the release range.

What you are describing may confuse your opponent and cause him to miss his parry but it does not make the stab faster.

A swing can be accelerated because if you point your weapon at your opponent, he stands in the middle of your swing release. By pointing your weapon to his side, he stands at the beginning (or end) of the release.

This does not apply to a stab. A stab can only be dragged. Pointing your stab at the opponent's closest body part (if that is a thing, I don't know the hitbox shapes tbh) is not an accel.

50 42
  • 23 Sep
 Kashi

@Tr0gledyte said:

@Kashi said:
Here is an example of a basic stab accel

You start your stab in the upper right and move your mouse downwards towards your opponents crotch, if you do it right the stabs release starts inside your opponent making it hit the fastest possible time

I'm sorry but both of you have it wrong. If you simply point the stab right at your opponent, its release also starts inside your opponent if they are within the release range.

What you are describing may confuse your opponent and cause him to miss his parry but it does not make the stab faster.

A swing can be accelerated because if you point your weapon at your opponent, he stands in the middle of your swing release. By pointing your weapon to his side, he stands at the beginning (or end) of the release.

This does not apply to a stab. A stab can only be dragged. Pointing your stab at the opponent's closest body part (if that is a thing, I don't know the hitbox shapes tbh) is not an accel.

It is an accell though , as the windup starts outside of the person and you move it into them the same thing applys to swing accels

124 44

@Kashi said:

@Tr0gledyte said:

@Kashi said:
Here is an example of a basic stab accel

You start your stab in the upper right and move your mouse downwards towards your opponents crotch, if you do it right the stabs release starts inside your opponent making it hit the fastest possible time

I'm sorry but both of you have it wrong. If you simply point the stab right at your opponent, its release also starts inside your opponent if they are within the release range.

What you are describing may confuse your opponent and cause him to miss his parry but it does not make the stab faster.

A swing can be accelerated because if you point your weapon at your opponent, he stands in the middle of your swing release. By pointing your weapon to his side, he stands at the beginning (or end) of the release.

This does not apply to a stab. A stab can only be dragged. Pointing your stab at the opponent's closest body part (if that is a thing, I don't know the hitbox shapes tbh) is not an accel.

It is an accell though , as the windup starts outside of the person and you move it into them the same thing applys to swing accels

It's no faster than simply pointing the stab straight at them. An accelerated swing means you hit them earlier in the release phase. This cannot be done with a stab. You're simply confusing them by moving the mouse during the windup, you're not hitting any sooner. If anything you risk an accidental drag this way, hitting them later.

50 42
  • 23 Sep
 Kashi

No man you really are misunderstanding what an accel stab is

Think of it more as a proactive move where both players are moving around

You use footwork and body movement to avoid an attack while getting a counter stab ready as you essentially dodge the attack and move your characters body towards the direction of the stab to make sure they dont back out of your reach

It's not as important for super long weapons but it is still an accel as you are making sure the attack hits as soon as possible

Nobody just sits there static

124 44

@Kashi said:
No man you really are misunderstanding what an accel stab is

Think of it more as a proactive move where both players are moving around

You use footwork and body movement to avoid an attack while getting a counter stab ready as you essentially dodge the attack and move your characters body towards the direction of the stab to make sure they dont back out of your reach

It's not as important for super long weapons but it is still an accel as you are making sure the attack hits as soon as possible

Nobody just sits there static

That's footwork and applies to literally everything in the game. An accel is swing manipulation.

1154 1807

You asked and we answered.

124 44
  • 25 Sep
 Tr0gledyte

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
You asked and we answered.

The answer is a stab can't be accelerated like a swing can.