Mordhau

Invasion is Untuned

93 109

It's way too hard for the defenders to hold out for 15 minutes. Defend the X objectives at the start are actually just impossible. Attackers can usually kill 20-30% before you ever meet in combat, and you don't even need to do 100% of the kill the peasants/burn the farms to progress.

I really only see attackers win, except once on Grad when Blue played Minecraft and walled in the King with like 6 engineers.

93 109

Also holy SHIT was it stupid to give Red catapult on Camp. Like what? They're defending! The guy on Catapult is completely impregnable from attack. Every game they rack up so many kills because they can just camp the spawn ALL GAME. Like did you not playtest this?

No no no this is horrible. Beyond horrible even.

I love Camp on Frontline. But Camp on Invasion is completely garbage to play as Blue.

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@DefendinMyBase said:
Like did you not playtest this?

Most probably not.

Knight 568 1923
  • 15 Sep
 LuxCandidus

Just pointing this out, the biggest playtest the developers could do is a 5v5, assuming all of them are present and available. They have no way of knowing what it will be like for a full 32v32 server.

124 158

@LuxCandidus said:
Just pointing this out, the biggest playtest the developers could do is a 5v5, assuming all of them are present and available. They have no way of knowing what it will be like for a full 32v32 server.

To be fair the community's been suggesting public test servers via Steam for a while now. Lots of players would love to help out.

And props to their AI programmer since the bots are pretty damn impressive for a multiplayer game. Maybe they won't do objectives but they'll still help get a feel of a map's flow and balance.

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The king just got one shot by a catapult on Grad.

Ayy lmao.

168 99

It's the fact they just recycled maps, they are meant to be making invasion specific maps but their past maps have never really been decently balanced so I don't expect much.

Grad is horrible.
Crappy objective for red to begin with (extremely boring) and then the match just turns in to a camping exercise once the commanders spawn.
The engineers protecting the commander is tedious to play against.
I had hoped to get away from any camping when playing this game.

The maps just don't support 64 players all in one location at once, too many bottlenecks.

When you look at frontline now, it just seems like a superior version of invasion. A version where you are more free to play how you like and move around the map, where you don't get teleported all over the place or have to deal with smoke and firebombs all the time.

Sellsword 699 2198
  • 16 Sep
 Goof

@LuxCandidus said:
Just pointing this out, the biggest playtest the developers could do is a 5v5, assuming all of them are present and available. They have no way of knowing what it will be like for a full 32v32 server.

COUGH COUGH Test servers COUGH COUGH

Knight 925 2541
  • 1
  • 16 Sep
 Pred

@LuxCandidus said:
Just pointing this out, the biggest playtest the developers could do is a 5v5, assuming all of them are present and available. They have no way of knowing what it will be like for a full 32v32 server.

Tbh things like "how having movable cata on defense is going to be utilised" or "should we put in RNG Treb volleys" require zero playtesting. Just very basic common sense.

Knight 469 912
  • 16 Sep
 wierHL

catapult wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue if neither side got these stupid af "die in 5 seconds" zones

Grad is probably my favorite of the bunch, forcing your way to the commanders or being their personal guard while the keep becomes more and more chaotic is the best

77 85

@bobbydigital said:
The maps just don't support 64 players all in one location at once, too many bottlenecks.

This is the main problem with Invasion, and why I prefer Camp to the rest. Most of the objectives are stuck to one and only one spot. The biggest exception are raiding objectives, Camp having both pushing the cart and destroying towers, and protecting the commanders sucking when one dies (generally the Warden).

I spoke about this in an other thread, but having more objectives at once, even optional ones (like placing ladders) would really help spreading players and make Invasion maps feel more like, well, an invasion

146 69
  • 16 Sep
 NoYou

@LuxCandidus said:
Just pointing this out, the biggest playtest the developers could do is a 5v5, assuming all of them are present and available. They have no way of knowing what it will be like for a full 32v32 server.

Makes sense why they decided to release it then, since invasion plays super well smaller scale, just a pity there are no small scale servers.

2 0

LuxCandidus
Just pointing this out, the biggest playtest the developers could do is a 5v5, assuming all of them are present and available. They have no way of knowing what it will be like for a full 32v32 server.

LMFAO that explain alot

2 1
  • 16 Sep
 andres

Asymmetrical maps will always feel unfair/unbalanced, even if the statistics say otherwise.

IMO, a few basic QoL fixes would go a long ways:

  • Give each team a side for attack/defend and use stopwatch as tiebreaker (unless both sides defend successfully, in whcih case you have a legitimate tie condition).
  • Allow defenders to choose their spawn point specifically within a stage (maybe give 3 or so options) but add respawn timers to defenders.
  • Add more information to spawn maps and maybe the HUD so it's easier for players to naturally optimize defenses. 20+ players per side is just too crazy to not have a streamlined objective.
77 85

@andres said:

  • Give each team a side for attack/defend and use stopwatch as tiebreaker (unless both sides defend successfully, in whcih case you have a legitimate tie condition).

Flashback from TF2's Meet Your Match update

No, Mordhau is not a competitive gamemode where we need to know who's the "true" winner everytime. As long as the maps aren't stupidly unbalanced and fun to play (cough old version of Crossroad cough Mountain Peak Red last cough), it's ok.

The big problem with Invasion right now is how 64 players are all clustered on a single and small objective.

14 15
  • 17 Sep
 Bluhman

this game mode makes vanilla frontline look balanced

A lot of the objectives on the different maps get super fucked up for offense side:
Overall:

  • Not nearly as many opportunities to gain points like there is on default frontline. I think that's a big contributing factor as to why it feels like people go off and fight in stupid places way far away from actual objectives, doubled by the fact that point gain is almost entirely agnostic as to whether you're being focused on achieving objectives or not.
  • Also with that in mind, way more opportunities to get points on offense than defense. I think the average score of attacking players gets a good deal higher than defending ones. To tie to that, the most important jobs to defense, mainly repair and engineering, don't generate much point value at all - not that just fully walling off objectives should be the answer.

Tundra:

  • Part 1 has way too many chokepoints, and the forester distribution is weirdly frontloaded to the point that usually people get stuck here on the very last three guys because of just how much the defense team is able to fortify around them.
  • Fort-burning segment is decent since at least it's more than one spot where you can get fire to burn stuff down, but again, really chokepointy stuff.
  • Carrying barrels to the mine has to be one of the longest, least forgiving treks across a no-mans land for progressing an objective. It's very easy to have defending engineers entirely wall off access to the cart (this is a common theme we'll be seeing a lot)

Grad:

  • How to win instantly: hit the Commander with a catapult! Strange how he's able to withstand assault from 6 different soldiers but a slightly big stone causes him to crumble to bits.
  • The best way to play Warden and Commander is to hide in a building with engineers as they build barricades literally everywhere. Don't be a hero.

Camp:

  • This one's ok I guess, though it comes through a bit strong on momentum, either blue is entirely stonewalled at the first point or they usually get it all the way.
  • I blame part of that on the frankly kind of stupid default layout of the map. Why is that tower on the left even there, it's the most cheesable thing in Horde and it doesn't really contribute anything in frontline because battles so rarely take place over there. In Invasion it's a contributing factor to the first leg of the cart journey being the hardest, 'cause sometimes a pair of jerk marksmen just make camp up there and distract half the invading team.
  • This one has probably the best answer to engineer cheese by just having the map have two alternate ways to complete the invasion on leg 2, either by bombing all the towers or just pushing the dang cart far enough.

Takeaways:

  • Object-carrying objectives are really dumb, please at least put some kind of no-build radius around the objectives.
  • Making the Commander/Warden playable was a mistake.
  • Should be more than one way to complete an invasion phase.
  • Maps need opening up
  • Objectives need to generate more points for both sides. There needs to be something in the gap that Frontline cap points left in its wake.
168 99

Their's 5k players in this game, I am sure a few would join a public test server and give feedback on the forum.
Pointless rolling out these ugly updates because they just hurt the game in the long run.

Game is running below 5000 average players, at this rate by new year it will be be 4000.

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Actually at this rate it would be closer to 1000. If you just assumed a half-life of a month, you wouldn't be far off so far.