Mordhau

The truth about Mordhau and Triternion

1339 1396

If that answer is "trying his best" then maybe his best isn't good enough.

Duke 5473 13074
  • 17 Aug
 Jax — Community Manager

We obviously care about the game and we're working on updates, if we wanted to jump ship with the money we wouldn't be making big updates and working super hard on content and features.

Duke 341 971

Actions speak louder than words.

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  • 1
  • 18 Aug
 Quadsword

@Jax said:
We obviously care about the game and we're working on updates,
if we wanted to jump ship with the money we wouldn't be making big updates and working super hard on content and features.

Actions speak louder than words. I haven't seen a single acknowledgement about the awful US servers. They've been awful for 4 months and it's starting to become difficult to find matches even at peak hours because - surprise - people are getting fed up with the atrocious servers and are quitting the game.

Then there's this:

@Jax said:
Mm to clarify, maps may or may not make it with the ranked update, it depends on where the maps are at progress wise and when everything else is ready.

I can see it being 50/50 whether or not it comes in one big update or two smaller ones, but if the latter happens the maps definitely won't have as long of a wait as it's been since the last patch to now.

Essentially, we don't want to hold back an update if it's possible, as there's no real reason to keep ranked from coming if it's ready and the maps aren't, but the maps are very close to being done, so we'll see what happens.

EDIT: Not everything is coming that was in the update, SDK is a long term goal that isn't going to be ready for a while.

Christ, it's Insurgency Sandstorm all over again. Wait months on end for a big update only for that update to be a massive disappointment and drive tons of players away.

Knight 693 1581
  • 18 Aug
 das

@Jax said:
We obviously care about the game and we're working on updates, if we wanted to jump ship with the money we wouldn't be making big updates and working super hard on content and features.

Everything is true except this part: obviously, which is the crux of the problem. This isn't because you guys aren't working on the game (I understand that new maps and mechanics take forever), but because nothing is being communicated and immense problems that do have a quick or already finished solution aren't implemented in a timely manner (horses, Crossroads temporary removal, the TKing and spawnblocking issue, etc.). To me, this indicates an issue with the development pipeline and someone in the private Discord chat theorized that whatever version control is being used disallows the team from releasing such hotfixes on an older, stable live version.

When people return to the game and give it another try, they want to see change, not just with new maps and skins but with the team's development process and attitude. To see "shields now have bigger kickbox lol" in patch notes and hear that a rework is never coming does the opposite of this.

The current model is not working. And it was frustrating and mindboggling to deal with in alpha too. Jax, I suspect that you're the lightning rod of abuse when it's probably not even your fault. You were admonished by the team for trying to show Frontline to the rest of us in the alpha. When I heard about that, I couldn't help but ask myself, WHY??????? Why was the #1 priority to "not show anything, to build up hype for our alpha players"? Why weren't we allowed to actually see the mode for ourselves and give input months before release so that perhaps the team could be directed into making a more fitting and better gamemode before it was too late? I feel as if the rest of the team is tying your hands and gagging you all the time. When you stream, I'm always hearing "...but I can't talk about that" from you.

Honestly, think of it as a relationship. You don't talk to your girlfriend one day and then just stop texting her for two weeks... that doesn't get people hyped. She's just gonna dump you. People are just gonna quit playing. Absence does NOT make the heart grow fonder... possibly one of the worst trite sayings being passed around as common wisdom. At the very least, it does not foster a healthy relationship.

And that's exactly what it is. The relationship between player and the devs is souring. The biggest problem isn't the melee combat; probably the opposite, that is its greatest strength and it's very obvious to release players that that is what the devs focused on 90% of the alpha. The new maps will alleviate the "lacks content" problem, but it's kind of like buying a new purse for your girlfriend - it's not a permanent solution if the root problems of your relationship aren't fixed and addressed.

The devs need to be able to find a system where they can hotfix and incrementally release smaller patches while simultaneously working on the big loads to come every month or so. That would be communication by showing good and timely acts. In the absence of patches, smaller engagements (text messages saying I love you with the cute smiley faces and shit) are needed. Right now that girlfriend doesn't feel loved, the guy's never texting her, he promises her that he's gonna land this huge deal and they're gonna get so much money and they're gonna move out to a better house and get a dog and it'll all be better, but what that girlfriend is asking for is to feel loved and present.

OP said:
Let's face it - the developers don't care what any of us want, and they never have to again. Mordhau's surprise success made them all millionaires overnight. Why on earth would they want to spend any of that money on a game that's already the overwhelming majority of money's it's ever going to make? If I were in their position, I'd say fuck Mordhau and enjoy early retirement.

Revenue =/= profit. Steam's cut, Unreal's cut, payments to employees around the globe, working with those foreign laws, and taxes. Let's imagine that Mordhau sold 2 million copies at an average cost of $29 (the game's price depends on the region and the means in which it was bought, e.g. first week sale, the 3000 kickstarter buyers, etc.).

2,000,000 x 29 = $58,000,000

Cool, but now Steam takes 30% off of that
58,000,000 * 0.7 = 40,600,000

Then Unreal takes 5% of that
40,600,600 * 0.95 = 38,570,000

Taxes vary immensely across the various countries... but European taxes are generally a lot higher than American taxes. I don't know how corporate vs personal taxes factor into all this, but my guess is that you take that above number and reduce it by the corporate tax rate, then it is again taxed by the personal tax rate.

Corporate Tax of 20% (Slovenia at 19%, but I'm not sure how this works with Triternion having people around the globe)
38,570,000 * 0.8 = 30,856,000

This is assuming 2 million copies sold, which I don't think is the case. Over a million is confirmed, which would be $15,428,000. One and a half million would be at $23,142,000, which is probably closer to reality.

This isn't even factoring in any of the loans and debts that marox and co. almost certainly had to undertake. There was a huge rush before release to push the game out due to "money". The devs had to live somehow with $0 income from Q4 2014- Q2 2019. Mordhau had some very strong guerilla marketing around release, whether they had to pay the big bucks for it or not is unknown cause it's quite literally none of our business.

Then as marox allocates that ~$23,142,000 to the 11 members of the team, each of them is taxed differently based on the bracket. I think that this tax rate can be as high as 50%, so even if you were a relatively huge contributor to the team and were about to receive $1 million, that could be reduced to $500,000 that you actually get to take. This sounds like a lot, but considering you weren't paid for 4.5 years, this averages to an annual income (not gross revenue) of $110,000. Certainly still good by most people's standards, but you weren't able to spend any of that for 4.5 years + this isn't your income anymore unless Mordhau miraculously sells at a static rate of 1.5 million copies per year. Certainly far from being able to retire. If I'm grievously wrong about how taxation in this scenario works, please feel free to call me out on it.

Chances are that the team members didn't evenly receive $2 mil as their gross income, not all members joined at the same time and some comparatively have easier jobs. People who aren't the CEO tend to get salaries and compensations based on their job.

"So is marox hogging all that gold for himself?"

He can, but I highly doubt he would given that he took the immense risk and trouble of developing Mordhau in the first place and continues to develop it (even though 99% of that process is currently hidden...). The dude has a PhD and several published papers in Computer Science... he could've become a CTO or some big shot elsewhere making a regular $250+k a year without all the stress and risk of developing a massive game.

Why on earth would they want to spend any of that money on a game that's already the overwhelming majority of money's it's ever going to make?

Because investment into a company fosters good will and a stream of revenue for the future. This is what Torn Banner didn't get and what a lot of short-sighted, greedy companies in general don't understand (and unfortunately, companies and politics in America is filled to the brim with that). Mordhau has room to reclaim big playercounts and grow beyond even that. If marox doesn't believe that, then yes, he should just take the money and run. But I feel as if he is motivated by things other than money considering he started Slasher alone, already has the skills to make very steady and good money, refuses to implement microtransactions, refused to find a publisher that would've made this whole process 100x easier, etc.

If I were in their position, I'd say fuck Mordhau and enjoy early retirement.

And that's probably why it is unlikely you (and most people including myself) would ever be in that position in the first place.

"Dude, if marox isn't hogging all the gold and didn't pay each of his employees a gorillion bucks, then that means they just have like ~$20 million lying around! Why aren't they getting more employees?"

As already mentioned, chances are that Mordhau already made of the majority of the amount of money it will ever make (unless it explodes again with some significant patch, which is possible and hopefully what happens - CSGO erupted with the skins update, Blizzard games had expansion packs which are just today's version of 2.0.1 and 3.0.1 patches, Minecraft took a few years to truly explode, Rainbow 6 Siege was more successful quite a bit post-launch than on release). The income of the company isn't $20 mil per year, but probably rather low now that the game has settled down and dried out. Yet, the salaries of all 11 employees must still be paid. In addition to that are server and upkeep costs.

Expanding the team and obtaining a studio has a double whammy in increasing these costs. Even expanding to "just" 20 employees means that those millions will dry up really fast if the team isn't making massive headways. It also doesn't have a guarantee of making processes faster but could potentially make things slower. New coders need to be trained up to speed, which is a long term process and investment. I don't necessarily agree with the team's stance on such matters, but for perspective's sake I mention all this. I do believe this is their general reason for not expanding yet + they still want to keep "the integrity of the game" in tact, so to speak.

But all that being said, I don't really know what I'm talking about. I am very open to being educated and corrected by someone more knowledgeable about such matters. This is all a crapshot.

Knight 7577 13875
  • 18 Aug
 ToLazy4Name

das you continue to astound me by never making a single bad post, which is saying something because you just explained business and taxes to a retard in a manner that an ancap finds acceptable

Duke 5473 13074
  • 18 Aug
 Jax — Community Manager

@Quadsword said:

@Jax said:
We obviously care about the game and we're working on updates,
if we wanted to jump ship with the money we wouldn't be making big updates and working super hard on content and features.

Actions speak louder than words. I haven't seen a single acknowledgement about the awful US servers. They've been awful for 4 months and it's starting to become difficult to find matches even at peak hours because - surprise - people are getting fed up with the atrocious servers and are quitting the game.

That's because, as far as I know, there aren't any major issues with US servers. I'm Central US and have no issues. LA servers have a few problems that are in the process of being addressed, but aside from that I have had almost nothing reported about any server problems.

Then there's this:

@Jax said:
Mm to clarify, maps may or may not make it with the ranked update, it depends on where the maps are at progress wise and when everything else is ready.

I can see it being 50/50 whether or not it comes in one big update or two smaller ones, but if the latter happens the maps definitely won't have as long of a wait as it's been since the last patch to now.

Essentially, we don't want to hold back an update if it's possible, as there's no real reason to keep ranked from coming if it's ready and the maps aren't, but the maps are very close to being done, so we'll see what happens.

EDIT: Not everything is coming that was in the update, SDK is a long term goal that isn't going to be ready for a while.

Christ, it's Insurgency Sandstorm all over again. Wait months on end for a big update only for that update to be a massive disappointment and drive tons of players away.

Well SDK is a long term thing, and it's implied as being something that won't be in the next update in that post itself. Maps are taking a little longer than expected, but progress is going well - we're not going to hold an entire update to wait for that content, might as well just release that separately at a slightly later date.

310 239
  • 18 Aug
 LoPan

IMHO:

The population has settled and the skill level has somewhat evened across the remaining players. The players who don’t have the patience to learn and/or the skill/hand eye coordination to overcome and adapt to play styles and mechanics quit.

It’s been that way with most good games of this genre, (m&b/wotr/chiv come to mind.). The group of players remaining dominate any new players and discourage them from taking the time to learn how to play effectively. So they just chalk it up to the games broken instead of themselves. It’s sad but true.

I’m not saying this game couldn’t use mod tools and a handful of new maps/modes to keep it fresh in the coming year, but as it stands the game is polished and the mechanics are some of the most intricate and skill based of the genre I’ve ever seen after wotr, (again, my opinion.)

Game runs smooth. The duel servers I play don’t have issues and me and my friends pings remain relatively steady w the odd “packet loss” in yellow every once in a while which honestly never seems to effect my experience whatsoever despite the message. We don’t have problems w the mechanics and seem nothing broken aside from our personal distastes, (held Block shields because I only play duels and 1 hit maul because let’s face it no ones like being 1 hit ko’d).

But we still love the game and will continue to support it until otherwise.

TL:DR - skill cap is high and pushes impatient/mediocre players away. Maybe add a mode that’s only available to players of lower ranks, I dunno 🤷🏻‍♂️

604 475
  • 18 Aug
 esturias

@LoPan said:
I’m not saying this game couldn’t use mod tools and a handful of new maps/modes to keep it fresh in the coming year, but as it stands the game is polished and the mechanics are some of the most intricate and skill based of the genre I’ve ever seen after wotr, (again, my opinion.)

The core mechanics are fine and there is little to complain about, but you have to be horribly blind and/or ignorant to call this game "polished".

310 239
  • 18 Aug
 LoPan

@esturias said:

@LoPan said:
I’m not saying this game couldn’t use mod tools and a handful of new maps/modes to keep it fresh in the coming year, but as it stands the game is polished and the mechanics are some of the most intricate and skill based of the genre I’ve ever seen after wotr, (again, my opinion.)

The core mechanics are fine and there is little to complain about, but you have to be horribly blind and/or ignorant to call this game "polished".

In my opinion, overall and with all it brings to the table for this niche genre it’s about as polished as anything I’ve seen, (again within the genre.). That doesn’t mean there aren’t problems. Nothing is perfect 🤷🏻‍♂️ But polished is also a relative term. It would have to depends on what aspects of the game we are really looking at which is why “overall”. I would say it’s fairly “polished.”✌🏽 You can call me blind if you want. Thankfully, not blind enough to be unable to read all these “broken mechanics” ppl are “abusing.”

Knight 917 2522
  • 1
  • 18 Aug
 Pred

@LoPan said:
TL:DR - skill cap is high and pushes impatient/mediocre players away.

-> 40 people trying to blindly hack at both enemies and teammates as many times as possible before an incoming catapult shot kills half of them, in a 10x10ft area while being on fire and getting trampled by a horse

-> Skill cap

Knight 4114 4388
  • 18 Aug
 pizza boy

hello lazy

310 239
  • 2
  • 18 Aug
 LoPan

@Pred said:

@LoPan said:
TL:DR - skill cap is high and pushes impatient/mediocre players away.

-> 40 people trying to blindly hack at both enemies and teammates as many times as possible before an incoming catapult shot kills half of them, in a 10x10ft area while being on fire and getting trampled by a horse

-> Skill cap

Skill cap as far as melee combat goes. As I said this is my personal opinion... And I’ve only played duels since day 1. So I don’t deal w those problems 😂

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  • 18 Aug
 smug

The skill ceiling for this game in 1v1 is lower than Chiv, and the skill floor is relatively low compared to other niche games. There's no execution barriers like the elaborate drags in Chiv. Teamgames and 1vX currently has a higher skill cap, but the latter is currently broken meaning it's impossible for a good player to win a 1vX vs other good players barring the X making huge mistakes. Compare learning Mordhau to Quake or Tekken 7, there's literally no comparison. Just learning your movelist in Tekken is harder than anything in Mordhau, and that's not even including shit like learning the various ways to get up off the floor and understanding how that influences matchups, or how about learning how to break command throws which requires you to read animations and is more indepth than anything Mordhau has to offer defensively? Also for a game that prides itself on you having control over your attacks, it's actually crazy how much control you DON'T have compared to Chiv.

People aren't leaving this game because it's inaccessible, people are leaving because it gets repetitive and Frontline is full of cancerous mechanics like fire bombs/horses/body shot Javs. Not to mention the maps are dogshit.

83 51
  • 18 Aug
 Budd

@smug said:
The skill ceiling for this game in 1v1 is lower than Chiv, and the skill floor is relatively low compared to other niche games. There's no execution barriers like the elaborate drags in Chiv. Teamgames and 1vX currently has a higher skill cap, but the latter is currently broken meaning it's impossible for a good player to win a 1vX vs other good players barring the X making huge mistakes. Compare learning Mordhau to Quake or Tekken 7, there's literally no comparison. Just learning your movelist in Tekken is harder than anything in Mordhau, and that's not even including shit like learning the various ways to get up off the floor and understanding how that influences matchups. Also for a game that prides itself on you having control over your attacks, it's actually crazy how much control you DON'T have compared to Chiv.

People aren't leaving this game because it's inaccessible, people are leaving because it gets repetitive and Frontline is full of cancerous mechanics like fire bombs/horses/body shot Javs. Not to mention the maps are dogshit.

Agreed, like frontline is THE gamemode that shows up on match making and what new players are going to do first usually.

The games combat is really good but theres alot of broken weapon mechanics that just straight up get abused in frontline. Like ive never touched the bardiche literally ever, or any polearm because they're all fucking amazing, so amazing i was able to get 45-4 just from swings and drags. Its literal bullshit,

Not to mention garbage like Messer, Waraxe/Battle Axe, Maul and Halberd are all like THE frontline meta, spears cool but not really much more than stabbing you can do :/

83 51
  • 18 Aug
 Budd

@ToLazy4Name said:
das you continue to astound me by never making a single bad post, which is saying something because you just explained business and taxes to a retard in a manner that an ancap finds acceptable

Dude you're like the Anton Ego from Ratatouille of the forums my guy.

310 239
  • 18 Aug
 LoPan

@Budd said:

@smug said:
The skill ceiling for this game in 1v1 is lower than Chiv, and the skill floor is relatively low compared to other niche games. There's no execution barriers like the elaborate drags in Chiv. Teamgames and 1vX currently has a higher skill cap, but the latter is currently broken meaning it's impossible for a good player to win a 1vX vs other good players barring the X making huge mistakes. Compare learning Mordhau to Quake or Tekken 7, there's literally no comparison. Just learning your movelist in Tekken is harder than anything in Mordhau, and that's not even including shit like learning the various ways to get up off the floor and understanding how that influences matchups. Also for a game that prides itself on you having control over your attacks, it's actually crazy how much control you DON'T have compared to Chiv.

People aren't leaving this game because it's inaccessible, people are leaving because it gets repetitive and Frontline is full of cancerous mechanics like fire bombs/horses/body shot Javs. Not to mention the maps are dogshit.

Agreed, like frontline is THE gamemode that shows up on match making and what new players are going to do first usually.

The games combat is really good but theres alot of broken weapon mechanics that just straight up get abused in frontline. Like ive never touched the bardiche literally ever, or any polearm because they're all fucking amazing, so amazing i was able to get 45-4 just from swings and drags. Its literal bullshit,

Not to mention garbage like Messer, Waraxe/Battle Axe, Maul and Halberd are all like THE frontline meta, spears cool but not really much more than stabbing you can do :/

Yeah, I dunno about you. But being a pc gamer. I’ve never used a matchmaking function in ANY pc multiplayer game when there is a server list available.

83 51
  • 1
  • 18 Aug
 Budd

@LoPan said:

@Budd said:

@smug said:
The skill ceiling for this game in 1v1 is lower than Chiv, and the skill floor is relatively low compared to other niche games. There's no execution barriers like the elaborate drags in Chiv. Teamgames and 1vX currently has a higher skill cap, but the latter is currently broken meaning it's impossible for a good player to win a 1vX vs other good players barring the X making huge mistakes. Compare learning Mordhau to Quake or Tekken 7, there's literally no comparison. Just learning your movelist in Tekken is harder than anything in Mordhau, and that's not even including shit like learning the various ways to get up off the floor and understanding how that influences matchups. Also for a game that prides itself on you having control over your attacks, it's actually crazy how much control you DON'T have compared to Chiv.

People aren't leaving this game because it's inaccessible, people are leaving because it gets repetitive and Frontline is full of cancerous mechanics like fire bombs/horses/body shot Javs. Not to mention the maps are dogshit.

Agreed, like frontline is THE gamemode that shows up on match making and what new players are going to do first usually.

The games combat is really good but theres alot of broken weapon mechanics that just straight up get abused in frontline. Like ive never touched the bardiche literally ever, or any polearm because they're all fucking amazing, so amazing i was able to get 45-4 just from swings and drags. Its literal bullshit,

Not to mention garbage like Messer, Waraxe/Battle Axe, Maul and Halberd are all like THE frontline meta, spears cool but not really much more than stabbing you can do :/

Yeah, I dunno about you. But being a pc gamer. I’ve never used a matchmaking function in ANY pc multiplayer game when there is a server list available.

I mean yeah me too, like ive played my fair share of source games which 80% never have match making.

But it sucks that duels are like almost completely hidden from the normal player.

wait have you played frontline?

106 125

@SushiFish said:
I wouldn't blame Jax as the community manager for this shitfest. He is probably trying his best with the limited amount of information given to him by the other developers. Seems like they have just caved in and are having a hardtime doing anything right anymore.

Partially, yeah. I reckon he's not given much information to work with and it sucks being the middle guy dealing with backlash.

On the other hand, and I mean no personal offense to the guy, he's not acting like a community manager. With the exception of the one proper July dev update (which was really well done) his presence is scattered across random short posts. There is no #1 official way to know about upcoming patches, no single thread where we find developer updates, not even a pinned topic with info like where to report a hacker.

Jax if you're reading this, here are some ideas that don't require input from the other devs:

  • Periodic community tournaments. No money required whatsoever. Maybe a unique forum badge or weapon skin for the winners.
  • Weekly balance discussions. This week we disuss Estoc, next week Eveningstar. That sort of thing.
  • Community polls. What kind of official map would the community like to see next? How would players feel if X was added to the game?
  • Screenshot Saturdays.
  • A forum category or pinned topic for modding/mapmaking. It's clear the community wants to get craftin' even if the SDK isn't out yet, might as well make it easier for them in the meantime.
310 239
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  • 18 Aug
 LoPan

@Budd said:

@LoPan said:

@Budd said:

@smug said:
The skill ceiling for this game in 1v1 is lower than Chiv, and the skill floor is relatively low compared to other niche games. There's no execution barriers like the elaborate drags in Chiv. Teamgames and 1vX currently has a higher skill cap, but the latter is currently broken meaning it's impossible for a good player to win a 1vX vs other good players barring the X making huge mistakes. Compare learning Mordhau to Quake or Tekken 7, there's literally no comparison. Just learning your movelist in Tekken is harder than anything in Mordhau, and that's not even including shit like learning the various ways to get up off the floor and understanding how that influences matchups. Also for a game that prides itself on you having control over your attacks, it's actually crazy how much control you DON'T have compared to Chiv.

People aren't leaving this game because it's inaccessible, people are leaving because it gets repetitive and Frontline is full of cancerous mechanics like fire bombs/horses/body shot Javs. Not to mention the maps are dogshit.

Agreed, like frontline is THE gamemode that shows up on match making and what new players are going to do first usually.

The games combat is really good but theres alot of broken weapon mechanics that just straight up get abused in frontline. Like ive never touched the bardiche literally ever, or any polearm because they're all fucking amazing, so amazing i was able to get 45-4 just from swings and drags. Its literal bullshit,

Not to mention garbage like Messer, Waraxe/Battle Axe, Maul and Halberd are all like THE frontline meta, spears cool but not really much more than stabbing you can do :/

Yeah, I dunno about you. But being a pc gamer. I’ve never used a matchmaking function in ANY pc multiplayer game when there is a server list available.

I mean yeah me too, like ive played my fair share of source games which 80% never have match making.

But it sucks that duels are like almost completely hidden from the normal player.

wait have you played frontline?

Lol nope 😅 This game is basically my wotr resurrection. As duels were all the like 2-300 left of the community played for the last two years or whatever it was. Never got old for me personally. God I miss backswings past ppls blocks. Now that was some REAL animation abuse 💯