Mordhau

Horses don't need a hard nerf. Couched weapons do.

1154 1805

Couched weapons let horsemen press F and roll around to farm people from 15 feet out + an extra ten feet of ghost range. They only go down when they're dumb enough to follow predictable paths, enter choke points or head on charge a group of players and/or get caught on something. Or when a very good and very persistent archer decides to just keep shooting your horse with every respawn.

-If horses are hard nerfed by speed damage against the horseman, then spears would become the only viable weapon to use from horse due to safety of reach and high damage out put + couched ability... Horse would no longer be a direct upgrade to whichever player grabs it but a fast and memey way to die unless you have a very long weapon.

We should be encouraging more playstyles from horseback by making lance the only couched weapon and/or adding a timing aspect to couched weapons in general. Any weapon should be very viable from horseback.

Mercenary 86 109
  • 11 Aug
 VCliff

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
-If horses are hard nerfed by speed damage against the horseman, then spears would become the only viable weapon to use from horse due to safety of reach and high damage out put + couched ability... Horse would no longer be a direct upgrade to whichever player grabs it but a fast and memey way to die unless you have a very long weapon.

Disagree here, this just means that Riders have to be more picky about their targets they will prefer Archers or people who are not aware of their presence. Most weapons will still struggle against Horses, but Polearms should be a legit countermeasuere now. Like you said, Spear and Halb on a Horse need to be nerfed though so other weapons can be solid alternatives.

Agree with the overall sentiment, couching is the most retarded thing about Horse combat.

Apart from the Hitbox/Stagger nerf thats coming the charge should be way more limited and situational, either by more restricting turn angles, higher speed floor, or as you mentioned it, by timing.

Spear/Halb on a horse should be nerfed in several ways: Reducing couch range to Bardiche levels (Which is still pretty great, but not as forgiving/braindead as Spear and Halb charges). And Reducing their stab range to Billhook/Bardiche levels. If we nerf couched Weapons we still have tons of only half braindead horse riders who know that regular spear stabs are just slightly less retarded than couching. I really wish that the other Polearms would be more popular than they are right now.

Duke 552 937
  • 11 Aug
 Goatie

I'd like to see horsemen get ejected if their couched weapon collides with objects lol.

955 694
  • 11 Aug
 esturias

Horses don't need a nerf, horses need a complete redesign.

70 59
  • 11 Aug
 Yadyoy

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLL HORSES ARE COMPLETELY FINE DONT TOUCH THEM THEY MAKE SO MUCH SENSE I LOVE WATCHING IDIOTS GO ON HUGE KILLSTREAKS FOR NO REASON WAHOOOOOOOO INSTAGIB ME IN MY ASS DADDY

247 145

btw some weapons have a tendency to magnetize to the horses neck when swung. especially the zweihander... kinda feel like a downie when i end up killing my own horse because the swings arc goes across my horses neck either at the end or beginning of swing... like, perhaps the rider of the horse should be able to ignore his horses hitbox?.. that way people can swing however they want without necking their horse by accident... maybe that's a little too softcore and noobfriendly, i dunno...

70 59
  • 11 Aug
 Yadyoy

@ZugZugNeverEnds said:
btw some weapons have a tendency to magnetize to the horses neck when swung. especially the zweihander... kinda feel like a downie when i end up killing my own horse because the swings arc goes across my horses neck either at the end or beginning of swing... like, perhaps the rider of the horse should be able to ignore his horses hitbox?.. that way people can swing however they want without necking their horse by accident... maybe that's a little too softcore and noobfriendly, i dunno...

Nah man I totally agree, I really would love to see the riders hits phase through the horse just like everyone else. At this point I don't even think it's logical that horse riders have a hitbox or hp at all. They really should make infantry have to kill the horse before the rider gets dismounted. I also don't think riders getting dismounted should knock them over, let them have a fair chance to fight on the ground as well it's only fair. I know this might be pushing it a tiny bit, but they should also allow any weapon to be couched it's kinda bad game design that you can only couch sharp pointy weapons on a horse. Horses should also get an inventory system to store riders favorite weapons so they can always ride the horse and have a good time. Possibly allow an auto drive mode to the horse, you know with technology becoming so great that autonomous cars are becoming a reality, why not let players map out the routes they want to take and then save them so they don't have to keep pushing the same keys and can focus more on the gritty combat of this beautiful game, that stuff gets kinda redundant after you make a few rounds so I'm in favor of that pretty heavily. They should add a two seater saddle to the horses as well, typically you can only cover one side of your horse with a couched weapon which is pretty bullshit, I don't see why you can have a left handed friend come along to help cover your other side. All of the buildings should also be horse destructible just incase you can't make a tight turn make it so the horses can just smash through the corners of the buildings so they don't get stuck. The damage on their bump also needs a major increase it only does like ~20 damage or 1/5th of an infantries life and that just isn't realistic, they should be plowing infantry down like a baboon in a flock of flamingos. I'd really enjoy seeing knock over mechanics for horses when they run into infantry just to make the game moore realistic. I think horse riders should also get a massive boost to xp gained, since they're one of the most threatening forces on the battlefield and have to put in maximum focus and effort I don't see why the xp should be the same as some shitty little infantry noob feeding the enemy team not capturing objectives. Another really glaring issue with horses is they take too long to stop, we really need some form of horse shoe that promotes quick stopping and rapid acceleration, if you run into a corner you're just screwed if you get surrounded and that's so unfair getting outnumbered is really unrealistic.

Knight 475 919
  • 11 Aug
 wierHL

tbh Zwei looks kinda unwieldy to be swung from horseback, really seems like a footman's weapon to me
stabbing with it from horseback I could see but swinging seems weird to me
I feel the same way about really long weapons like halberd, bardiche, spear or very topheavy weapons like maul or sledgehammer

1154 1805

Yeah exec/zwei horsies look very wrong too but not sure what could be done about that.

Hit box adjustments are welcome for fliinch but overall charging your horse at enemies should be perfectly viable if you're skilled enough to take the heat. Bonus damage against horsemen at speed means they get one shot by most two handers.

Is billhook worth anything if ANY 2h weapon will now one shot horses?

Knight 475 919
  • 1
  • 12 Aug
 wierHL

I remember playing M&B: With Fire & Sword, where some weapons can't be used on horseback. These include all "2-handed weapons" (big 2-handed swords, lumber axe and bardiche-style "pole-axes"), halberds and pikes. Pitchforks and warscythes can be used on horseback, along with of course lances which can be couched. I think any weapon that's clearly too unwieldy should be unusable on horseback. Spear I could see being stabbed with but I'd rather it's uncouchable.

Another thing that Mordhau's horses seem to be lacking is a proper animation for swinging downward from horseback. In M&B you can kinda lean over to the sides but afaik in Mordhau you're always sitting up straight in the saddle so it's kinda awkward to swing downward. Unless I'm missing something there's no dedicated leaning pose/animation in Mordhau and using anything other than polearms or long 2-handers is a no-go.

I can think of 2 solutions for this:

  • Make an animation for leaning a bit based on mouse movement, but this may end up feeling janky and difficult to control.
  • If you're not holding a lance or estoc, make F lean you a bit over 1 of the sides (determined by mouse movement and then hitting F). Hitting F again brings you back upright.

Additionally I think it would look cool if the leaning position would hold out your weapon (imagine like an axe, arming sword or warhammer) like this or this but leaning a bit more maybe depending on the weapon. It's not a couch, you'd still have to time your attack somewhat because you might miss the window when moving fast, but it would skip the windup animation. I always thought M&B's "held" attack animations looked awkward on ground but pretty good from the side of a horse. Your intentions would of course be dead obvious to anyone looking at you. Idk this might be OP as hell though. Almost wish we were still alpha testing.

I also propose momentum-based dmg on riders doesn't apply to their legs. The leaning position would expose your torso more, so people with shorter weapons have a better shot at killing you (a matter of timing your attack vs them timing theirs). When sitting up straight momentum-based dmg would be mostly caused by those with long weapons.

The billhook would become more niche but it would still be useful for dismounting riders with low momentum (or people on ladders I guess.)

Knight 334 777
  • 12 Aug
 AngelEyes

Horses also don’t have nitro booster blasting out their rectum in M&B. Seriously, horses go from idle to full stride too quickly in Mordhau.

Also horses in M&B can’t go wading through a mob without a care in the world.

Knight 475 919
  • 12 Aug
 wierHL

Basically M&B handled horses pretty damn well. Theirs really shine in somewhat organized battles on open fields.
Currently Mordhau's horses consists of a few dudes picking off isolated footmen until they get stuck on something and get swarmed. Aside from that map, they only carry weight on the very narrow Mountainpeak (where I don't think they fit anyway) because horse supremacy on that map can lead to pretty big killstreaks.

If they're nerfed/revised with momentum-based dmg, slower speed buildup (maybe fast charging can be unique to a type of horse), lance/estoc as the only couchables, a reduced trample hitbox, Zweihanders and halberds not being usable and dedicated leaning-from-the-side positions...
TL;DR if they get nerfed into not being OP, some open maps like Camp or Grad could justify having more of them present (provided they don't tank the performance). Together with plenty of lances this would allow cavalry to be counterable but very effective in breaking stalemates with a well executed charge.
1 or 2 lancers cruising around are harassers, 8 of them in a wedge formation are shock cavalry

1154 1805

Yeah, one handed weapons feel gimped from horse back, not just because their range gives footman with 2h an edge but also because they sometimes physically can't reach crouched players right under the horse.

A leaning animation would be welcome and I would love to see unwieldy 2h be unusuable from horseback as Wier suggested.

Lance should be the only couched weapon.

Knight 475 919
  • 12 Aug
 wierHL

Eh, couchable estoc is cool imo. Doesn't really bother footmen in my experience but can be fun in cav vs cav.

11 5
  • 12 Aug
 Wayne-O

They definitely need a re-work. Last weekend on my final match for the night, i jumped on a horse on crossroads, i took my unarmed build out as i'm going for the 30 unarmed kills achievement. The first kill was funny, but after my 3rd kill using fists on horseback without dying, i thought something needs to happen here. I ended up getting 6 kills on horseback with fists before dying.

Knight 475 919
  • 1
  • 12 Aug
 wierHL

@Goatie said:
I'd like to see horsemen get ejected if their couched weapon collides with objects lol.

ywn win gold medal for lance vaulting at Mordhau Olympics