Mordhau

Unreadable Attacks

Knight 762 3301
  • 10 Aug
 Mittsies

Unreadable attacks.
The term is thrown around by players of all skill levels quite often, usually when describing an attack that is difficult to consistently defend against. Although Mordhau has no truly unreadable attacks, there are certain maneuvers so difficult to read that even the best players will struggle to consistently deal with them in most situations. Keyword: consistently. Skilled players do their best to mitigate unreadable attacks with good footwork: trying to give themselves more space (and therefore time) to read, as well as repositioning themselves so the attack isn't floating right in front of their camera. Other mitigation examples: running away, crouching, torso movement, jumping.

At low levels of play, properly-executed feints and morphs are extremely difficult to read, especially when they don't mitigate any of their attacks - usually either face-hugging or backpedaling at all times. These players will either panic parry or gamble almost every single time. Even after hundreds of hours of practice, they can still be difficult to read consistently. An intermediate player may still fall for a well-executed morph about once every three or four times. Combine it with decent accels, drags, footwork, etc. and even a player with over 500 hours of playtime will find it impossible to consistently read his opponent's mix-up. So how much practice should be necessary to consistently read a particular maneuver?

https://i.imgur.com/Gk3aUhP.png

The reading-difficulty of an attack should be determined primarily by the difficulty to perform the maneuver.
An example of this would be the undercut-waterfall / wessex / That One Undercut Drag / whatever you want to call it. This attack is one of the hardest maneuvers to perform currently, and it's also quite difficult to read as well. On the other hand we have attacks that are very simple to perform (i.e. stab ripostes or bastard sword morph/feint mix-ups) that are also extremely difficult to read consistently even by god tier players. Part of a maneuver's difficulty is how situational it is, as well. Stabs are not situational at all: they are precise, fast, won't accidentally hit teammates or walls, and hard to runaway from so they should be weaker in terms of damage or be easier to read.

I think it's safe to say that the majority of reasonable players would agree that simple-to-input attacks that are also exceedingly hard to read (Even by top tier players) have no place in the game, but at what point should even the difficult-to-perform maneuvers be nerfed or removed due to how inconsistent they are to read? The danger in removing certain "unreadable" attacks is that it makes defense easier, which can sometimes lead to really bad compensations like nerfing parry (increases inconsistency across the board) or over-buffing basic attacks (stabs). It can also make the game feel really stale as the number of viable offensive options continues to dwindle, and complex attack manipulation takes a back seat to mechanics-heavy playstyles.

395 591
 smug

Although Mordhau has no truly unreadable attacks

Is this a parody piece.

Is that why top players are complaining about bastard sword mixups and stabs in general? Not to mention riposte footdrags etc. Perhaps things would be different in a 0 ping LAN environment, but no one is hard reading bastard sword mixups unless you count buffering chambers and stab gambles as "reading".

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_ZiSxcUNFcVWSmpCS0lJZ5SY7JlkOWwEJl0o7ijujY/edit

I'm not against "unreadable" attacks btw, just the way they work in Mordhau is flawed due to the low execution ceiling.

I think it's safe to say that the majority of reasonable players would agree that simple-to-input attacks that are also exceedingly hard to read (Even by top tier players) have no place in the game, but at what point should even the difficult-to-perform maneuvers be nerfed or removed due to how inconsistent they are to read?

There should be higher skill ceiling offense in this game, but that means buffing swing manipulation to chiv levels which uhh also means a fucked up game for 90% of the population who aren't competitive players. There's also a risk-to-reward factor that's hard to balance, for example why take the time to learn the wessex undercut drag that even Wizardish cant do when there are literally lower effort attacks that take 0 time to master and do the same amount of damage? This is the case in fighting games where there would be 0 point in learning optimal combo routes if they did the same dmg as a noob bread n butter combo. I don't see a future where certain drags doing more damage is actually a thing.

There's also the issue of balancing for team games AND duel which I think is responsible for a lot of things wrong with Mordhau.

33 71

I agree that unreadable attacks should be toned down. However, to compensate for that, defense should become harder. I propose bi-directional parry system. We already can choose the parry direction and it even has its own animation so why not differentiate between the right side and left side attacks? Then shield can have an advantage of having all-direction parry.

Knight 762 3301
  • 10 Aug
 Mittsies

@smug
Everything you're saying is 100% agreeing with my post, but presented as if you vehemently disagree.
I'm confused. Is this bait?

954 303

@Six_Blasters said:
I agree that unreadable attacks should be toned down. However, to compensate for that, defense should become harder. I propose bi-directional parry system. We already can choose the parry direction and it even has its own animation so why not differentiate between the right side and left side attacks? Then shield can have an advantage of having all-direction parry.

they have the directional parry animations, id say keep parry the way it is in terms of beng able to block but if you dont have the exact angle side of the attack being parried it deals slight damage (10) or cost more stamina to block it

1420 1499

Offense is boring in this game. Doesn't feel rewarding to hit someone. It feels more rewarding to dodge, read or parry.

954 303

i like winning a clash battle

113 80

@Antoniokontos said:
i like winning a clash battle

Wait until you see a carving knife clash battle

954 303

@DodgeThisYouBastarddd said:

@Antoniokontos said:
i like winning a clash battle

Wait until you see a carving knife clash battle

ive seen lute clash battles lol

1094 1726

I would love to see defense be less about timing and more about direction/chambering. Blocking where an attack is coming is far more intuitive than blocking when an attack is coming... especially when attacks can be dragged and feinted/morphed but parries cannot be extended/held or are otherwise dynamic in any way. Parry as an arcadey and static forward invincibility aura is an outdated mechanic and should have been left behind in Chivalry.

I would also like to see swing manipulation eased up on so long as the timing is also eased up on. More control.

In chivalry the mouse was your weapon. In Mordhau your feet and hips are your weapon as wasd is what primarily controls dragging/acceling. No feeling of control like what Chivalry had. No need for slow mo drags or reverses but cmon, Mord falls so short when it comes to swing manipulation.

Leg hits, shoulder drags, various waterfall types and directional morphs are what I would love to see combat based on, rather than feint button and delay drags or accels.

Shields are so annoying because they are immune to timing based offense... when that is literally 90% of the game's offense. Shields had to have location removed as a major factor because no one even knows how to use directional play when the rest of the game is timing based. Shields wouldn't be a problem at all if shields specifically were weaker to directional play and the game in general had more directinal options available and displayed directional concepts inthe tutorial.

I refuse to believe team play would greatly suffer from tightening up parry. Chivalry's parries were easier to get past via direction even when looking up blocked almost every direction of attack. And just like double parry currently gives the player a stamina free parry, double parry could be augmented so a double parry is very lax to direction; making it useful for blocking multiple attacks from multiple attackers where he meta is directional based.

312 241
  • 12 Aug
 LoPan

Maybe for the first duel or two w someone.

I personally don’t have problems consistently reading any particular attacks.

Some players have good combo mix ups that might get you the first couple times around. But everyone has tells and patterns. Just takes a little patience.

395 591
  • 6
  • 12 Aug
 smug

@LoPan said:
Maybe for the first duel or two w someone.

I personally don’t have problems consistently reading any particular attacks.

Some players have good combo mix ups that might get you the first couple times around. But everyone has tells and patterns. Just takes a little patience.

1.You are being disingenuous to defend the game.
2.You don't duel anyone that's good therefore reading attacks is easy because they don't do advanced drags.
3.You are somehow one of the best duelers that's even better than Wizardish despite having never seen your name in a duel tourney.

Which one?

Anyone who tells me they can consistently read every attack in this game I really can't take seriously.

Everything you're saying is 100% agreeing with my post, but presented as if you vehemently disagree.
I'm confused. Is this bait?

No I don't agree with the sentiment that everything in Mordhau is readable, and there is no guessing involved. If everything was truly hard readable in this game people would never land any hits. The nature of parrying in this game is conducive to 50/50 mixups anyway. If we are defining "reading" as waiting for the last second possible to parry.

19 12

@smug said:

Although Mordhau has no truly unreadable attacks

Is this a parody piece.

Is that why top players are complaining about bastard sword mixups and stabs in general? Not to mention riposte footdrags etc. Perhaps things would be different in a 0 ping LAN environment, but no one is hard reading bastard sword mixups unless you count buffering chambers and stab gambles as "reading".

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_ZiSxcUNFcVWSmpCS0lJZ5SY7JlkOWwEJl0o7ijujY/edit

I'm not against "unreadable" attacks btw, just the way they work in Mordhau is flawed due to the low execution ceiling.

I think it's safe to say that the majority of reasonable players would agree that simple-to-input attacks that are also exceedingly hard to read (Even by top tier players) have no place in the game, but at what point should even the difficult-to-perform maneuvers be nerfed or removed due to how inconsistent they are to read?

There should be higher skill ceiling offense in this game, but that means buffing swing manipulation to chiv levels which uhh also means a fucked up game for 90% of the population who aren't competitive players. There's also a risk-to-reward factor that's hard to balance, for example why take the time to learn the wessex undercut drag that even Wizardish cant do when there are literally lower effort attacks that take 0 time to master and do the same amount of damage? This is the case in fighting games where there would be 0 point in learning optimal combo routes if they did the same dmg as a noob bread n butter combo. I don't see a future where certain drags doing more damage is actually a thing.

There's also the issue of balancing for team games AND duel which I think is responsible for a lot of things wrong with Mordhau.

Agree with everything here. I'm nowhere near as good as all my old chiv buddies I see on that list, but I have many hours of experience and stab feints have been a problem since the very beginning of chivalry. Honestly, it's much more advantageous in this game to gamble against stab feints and either hope for the interrupt or chamber. Reading stab feints, especially with one handed weapons, is not realistic when you factor in ping / animations.

My other issue is weapons with insanely fast ripostes (mace stab, cleaver, a few other stab ripostes), I have pretty decent reflexes, but both of these seem like they push the limits of reaction times for an online game.

312 241
  • 12 Aug
 LoPan

@smug said:

@LoPan said:
Maybe for the first duel or two w someone.

I personally don’t have problems consistently reading any particular attacks.

Some players have good combo mix ups that might get you the first couple times around. But everyone has tells and patterns. Just takes a little patience.

1.You are being disingenuous to defend the game.
2.You don't duel anyone that's good therefore reading attacks is easy because they don't do advanced drags.
3.You are somehow one of the best duelers that's even better than Wizardish despite having never seen your name in a duel tourney.

Which one?

Anyone who tells me they can consistently read every attack in this game I really can't take seriously.

Everything you're saying is 100% agreeing with my post, but presented as if you vehemently disagree.
I'm confused. Is this bait?

No I don't agree with the sentiment that everything in Mordhau is readable, and there is no guessing involved. If everything was truly hard readable in this game people would never land any hits. The nature of parrying in this game is conducive to 50/50 mixups anyway. If we are defining "reading" as waiting for the last second possible to parry.

600 hours of exclusively duels. I’ve dueled a lot of the best duelist in the game. Nothing is “unreadable.” You can spin it any way you want. But a lot of people don’t have the same issues as you do. A lot of people looking for an excuse outside their own skill level might agree with you however 🤷🏻‍♂️

200 398

i dont understand the design philosophy behind mordhaus combat, take the core of chivalry,

put arbitrary limits on all the turn caps,

slow footwork down to a snails pace,

rewarding stamina to gamblers,

seemingly random input lockouts,

having fast animations for certain weapons but not a strong enough netcode to support them,

decelerating 180 turns but not 170.

glancing blow for spins but not insiders (which are basically spins).

drags dont break animation anymore, but they are still just as difficult to parry regardless of the animation quality

no severe punishments for missing attacks or playing carelessly

silent footsteps, even for horses sometimes. literally was being chased by 5 full armoured guys yesterday, didnt notice until one of them hit me. am i supposed to play at 100% and blow out my eardrums just so i can hear someone sneaking up on me.

i played the alpha for about 600 hours, a lot has improved since then, but these simple problems ive mentioned have never been addressed

312 241
  • 12 Aug
 LoPan

@SherbershLemel said:
i dont understand the design philosophy behind mordhaus combat, take the core of chivalry,

put arbitrary limits on all the turn caps,

slow footwork down to a snails pace,

rewarding stamina to gamblers,

seemingly random input lockouts,

having fast animations for certain weapons but not a strong enough netcode to support them,

decelerating 180 turns but not 170.

glancing blow for spins but not insiders (which are basically spins).

drags dont break animation anymore, but they are still just as difficult to parry regardless of the animation quality

no severe punishments for missing attacks or playing carelessly

silent footsteps, even for horses sometimes. literally was being chased by 5 full armoured guys yesterday, didnt notice until one of them hit me. am i supposed to play at 100% and blow out my eardrums just so i can hear someone sneaking up on me.

i played the alpha for about 600 hours, a lot has improved since then, but these simple problems ive mentioned have never been addressed

Turn cap is a good thing. Eliminates helicoptering.

Stm reward for gambles? Explain?

Missing swings costs more stm which is the punishment.

Fast animations(accels?). But not enough net code to support? What?

1420 1499

@LoPan said:
Stm reward for gambles? Explain?

When you morph and the opponent just gambles you are forced to parry. You have to pay stamina for morph, feint and parry.

312 241
  • 12 Aug
 LoPan

@SWSeriousMike said:

@LoPan said:
Stm reward for gambles? Explain?

When you morph and the opponent just gambles you are forced to parry. You have to pay stamina for morph, feint and parry.

Good?

1420 1499

That's up to you. I was just explaining - not judging.
But if you want you to hear my opinion about it: I'm not convinced stamina adds to the game. Gambles providing a stamina advantage might as well just be a symptom and not the disease.