Mordhau

Toolbox, and the issues with the "Engineer playstyle"

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Wall of text incoming.

Got the occasion to play with the toolbox, a lot. And honestly, the entire Engineer playstyle is fun ! I think the devs did a really good job with it. But the weapons have obvious problems that I hope isn't someone everyone already said about it.


Knowing what is still up (or "Where are my spikes ?")

Keeping an eye on 6 buildings (the limit you can build without taking the Ballista into account) isn't that hard when you are the only Engineer. But when an other join, it's chaos. All you need is for another toolbox user to set one spike next to yours and it's impossible to know if you still have 5 or 6 buildings up.

There is a need for an identification system. The devs spoke about helping with who build what to help against griefing, but it's also important that the system actually helps so you know what you own, like a small green cloth on your buildings (and some team-colored ones for others buildings).


Firebombs (or Getting countered by two points)

You must have experienced this at least once if you used the toolbox a lot : you do your little walls, you keep the barricades up, and suddenly all the grass is on fire. Once you play with the toolbox long enough, you will get attacked by Firebombs. It does force you to get Fireproof if you use the Toolbox.

But Firebombs themselves aren't the problem really, most of the time you can rebuild your things fast and you can toss a smoke bomb to snuff out the fires (you won't save your Ballista tho, and you might annoy your teammates). Fighting Firebombs is one of those moments where you have to prove you can keep your stuff up against your biggest foe. What bothers me is how an 8 point weapons gets completely countered by a 2 point one. 2 points, it's all it takes to counter you.

I think the solution here is more on the Firebomb side, as it is a bit absurd how a 2 point weapons both allows for area denial and to counter the Toolbox. My main suggestion is to increase the point cost of the Firebomb but the devs might have solutions nobody thought about.


Countering Horses (or putting planks here and there)

I'm sure you know how good the Toolbox is against Horses, but am I the only one that find it silly how it's by using the Walls and not the Spikes ? I saw too many times Horses get through small gaps that players themselves have troubles to get into without getting harmed. But if you put a Wall right in front of one, it stops.

I think it's more of a problem with countering Horses overall, and how unrewarding it tends to feel. That's a subject for an other day but it's worth mentioning.


Trolling (or Walls into your spawn)

Yes I know, the devs spoke about it too, but it should be mentioned. Because Walls start as a tiny little wall, it is WAY too easy to troll with it. Even if I approve what the devs wants to go for, I think it's also due to how easy it is to spam small walls. Why, opposed to the Spike, don't the Walls starts as a small pile of planks on the ground ? Yes, it's something to fix AFTER getting some proper counters for Horses with the Toolbox, people do get kicked pretty fast (in my games at least) when that happens.


Feeling rewarded (or Gib points)

I don't really see a reason to keep my teammates buildings up. Hell, even when my buildings are on fire, I don't really see a reason to fix my stuff. I'm better off rebuilding everything from the ground up.
Opposed to the in-map Barricades, repairing stuff doesn't feel rewarding. You don't get points for being an team player and stopping the opposing team with your Buildings. You can be the best Engineer of history, you will never reach the top of the scoreboard, unlike the other team player of your team who is tossing Medic Bags around.

Finally, I know everyone is already suggesting this, everyone said it, and that's why I mention it : please give assist points when someone deal damage/do kills with our Ballista. The Ballista is pretty much the main way to get points when using the Toolbox, and when someone uses ours it sucks. And I don't want to lose more points kicking my teammates off what I build. If I play Toolbox, I'm not that kind of player most of the time.


Thank you for taking the time to read this.

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good read.
very well formulated and you nailed all your points perfectly.
10/10 post.

the only thing i could possibly add would be to have a small building index at the bottem of the screen, between your stamina bar and ammo count that shows how many active buildings engineers have up. if the counter shows 7, then you know all your buildings are up, if it shows 6, something was destroyed.

Conscript 150 273
  • 5 Aug
 Kaiowa

@Quenquentthebabysitter said:
I'm sure you know how good the Toolbox is against Horses, but am I the only one that find it silly how it's by using the Walls and not the Spikes ?

So you never heard of the ancient medieval tactic of instantly materializing magic walls in front of horses? Yes of course it looks like crap, that's the kind of thing you'd expect from Fortnite or some other child's game. The whole building system needs to be reworked tbh.

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@Kaiowa said:
The whole building system needs to be reworked tbh.

Exactly.

The devs could stand to take another look at some of the ideas Gauntlet laid out in this thread:

https://mordhau.com/forum/comment/178926/find/

This was before he mysteriously disappeared back into the 5th dimension to secretly battle dark forces on behalf of mankind.

I miss him tbh.

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  • 6 Aug
 Xanny

i also believe that the peaceable ballista needs a nerf as it fires quite rapidly for how much it covers the user. if it fired slower it would be more balanced or give it more requirements for the terrain its able to be placed on. Such as a wider and flatter plain

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  • 6 Aug
 SoRoofless

Personally I don’t see anything wrong with the firebomb vs toolbox matchup. But the toolbox vs horse matchup is janky as hell, as is pretty much everything with horses.

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  • 6 Aug
 Cadiz

"Firebombs aren't the problem"

They roast you alive in 2 and a half seconds or less, even if you're on a horse (Which takes less dammage to fire than the rider). Yes. Firebombs are a problem.

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@EatAtRedLobster said:

@Kaiowa said:
The whole building system needs to be reworked tbh.

Exactly.

The devs could stand to take another look at some of the ideas Gauntlet laid out in this thread:

https://mordhau.com/forum/comment/178926/find/

This was before he mysteriously disappeared back into the 5th dimension to secretly battle dark forces on behalf of mankind.

I miss him tbh.

Damn, all of those are really good suggestions.

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  • 6 Aug
 SoRoofless

@Cadiz said:
"Firebombs aren't the problem"

They roast you alive in 2 and a half seconds or less, even if you're on a horse (Which takes less dammage to fire than the rider). Yes. Firebombs are a problem.

You’re taking firebombs outside the context of toolbox items. I never said firebombs weren’t generally a problem.

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@SoRoofless said:

@Cadiz said:
"Firebombs aren't the problem"

They roast you alive in 2 and a half seconds or less, even if you're on a horse (Which takes less dammage to fire than the rider). Yes. Firebombs are a problem.

You’re taking firebombs outside the context of toolbox items. I never said firebombs weren’t generally a problem.

they are the direct counter to toolboxes, as the OP just explained.
1 firebomb can destroy a whole cluster of buildings, and the only way to stop that is by throwing smoke bombs at it.

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  • 6 Aug
 Odd

@Kaiowa said:

@Quenquentthebabysitter said:
I'm sure you know how good the Toolbox is against Horses, but am I the only one that find it silly how it's by using the Walls and not the Spikes ?

So you never heard of the ancient medieval tactic of instantly materializing magic walls in front of horses? Yes of course it looks like crap, that's the kind of thing you'd expect from Fortnite or some other child's game. The whole building system needs to be reworked tbh.

my pfp does not agree with this post. But I personally do.

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@ZugZugNeverEnds said:

@SoRoofless said:

@Cadiz said:
"Firebombs aren't the problem"

They roast you alive in 2 and a half seconds or less, even if you're on a horse (Which takes less dammage to fire than the rider). Yes. Firebombs are a problem.

You’re taking firebombs outside the context of toolbox items. I never said firebombs weren’t generally a problem.

they are the direct counter to toolboxes, as the OP just explained.
1 firebomb can destroy a whole cluster of buildings, and the only way to stop that is by throwing smoke bombs at it.

One smoke bomb can cover a lot of ground and for a decent amount of time. If I'm out of smokes and the toolbox is on cool down, i just repair in the flames with a heavy handaxe because i have the repair and fireproof perks.

I can see why firebombs would be frustrating without these three things, but if you're not using them and still worrying about your buildables staying up, you're not playing engineer correctly.

Fire is a fair counter to buildables, but it can be mitigated pretty well with a proper loadout.

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i dunno man, i don't think its fair to REQUIRE the engineer to have the fireproof perk to function on a basic level without looking like a gimp.

if anything the fireproof perk should affect his buildings too, maybe not reduce the damage by 80% that is a bit extreme, but perhaps half that would be fair?? i dunno man, just juggling with ideas here because the current state of engineer is kinda silly... you're already giving up so much armor and perks just to have the toolbox + some weaponry, and topping that with a must-have perk like Smith (Fireproof in this instance) is kinda unfair from my perspective.

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  • 6 Aug
 esturias

The whole building part of the game needs some more love.
Spikes and barricades are ok, but the shielded MG-balista is just nonsense. And that's it?

Why not letting them build ladder's? They get built straight in the air and then fall down, if they hit a certain object (mostly the upper end of a wall or roof), they turn into a usable object.

Why not siege weapons? (Properly balanced of course...)

Dedicated door barricades. Bridges. Weapon racks that, built in a flag area, spawn random weapons.

So many possibilities...

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@ZugZugNeverEnds said:

@SoRoofless said:

@Cadiz said:
"Firebombs aren't the problem"

They roast you alive in 2 and a half seconds or less, even if you're on a horse (Which takes less dammage to fire than the rider). Yes. Firebombs are a problem.

You’re taking firebombs outside the context of toolbox items. I never said firebombs weren’t generally a problem.

they are the direct counter to toolboxes, as the OP just explained.
1 firebomb can destroy a whole cluster of buildings, and the only way to stop that is by throwing smoke bombs at it.

Yes, but I meant is that having a counter to the Toolbox is good. Firebomb being a counter isn't a problem by itself, but it costing only 2 points to counter you while also able to do area denial is a problem.

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granted axes dop the same just not as static damage you actualy have to hack away at something