Mordhau

EXTREME drags need a nerf

86 42
  • 31 Jul '19
 Badass_Ben

1st off, I think having a degree of a accel/drag mechanic is important to keep timings dynamic, and mix things up
HOWEVER, I think EXTREME drags are broken, from a realism perspective which leads into a gameplay issue.

Realistically, speaking, at the very start and end of a swing, you have very low momentum.
Momentum being P=MV with M= mass and V= velocity.
It takes TIME to accelerate a swing, to a velocity which has enough momentum to do damage. And because our weapons don't go flying out of our hands, it takes time at the end to decelerate the swing and return velocity back to 0.

A weapon swing at the VERY start of a swing and very end, is inherently not much of a threat, ESPECIALLY for an armored fighter.

And this makes it inherently unfair/difficult to fight extreme drags because its very hard to actually view a weapon through any practical lens as our sense of reality doesn't really apply.

I see a sword be raised up, I don't parry immediately as it takes TIME for momentum to build and no good swordsman would want to make an entirely ineffective swing, so I wait for the swing to come down- yet the instant the windup is done, I take full damage: uh wut?

Alternatively, my opponent im facing takes left-right swing (my perspective). I sidestep to his right, getting out of the "effective swing" of his sword, but I still take full damage because the tip grazed me at the end of his swing: uh wut?

This results in really weird looking fights with people seemingly cutting people's heads off at the very end of their swing, which doesn't make sense. It also makes feints stronger than they should be. Against someone who mixes up extreme dragging with feints, its literally impossible to read because you either parry on the windup (which he can feint) or you don't (at which point he damages you immediately, never giving you a chance to parry the release of the swing)

Solution is rather simple, the 1st 1/5th and last 1/5th (just picking estimated values here, can be adjusted) should do sub 10 dmg (regardless of weapon) and NOT cause a flinch.
Going for even more realism, you could make it factored by armor as well. An ineffective swing against T3 armor should literally do nothing, where as someone un armored could still be cut, or be punctured through their skin.

Knight 337 777
  • 31 Jul '19
 AngelEyes

This was suggested years ago.

I wouldn't say I wouldn't be interested in trying it, but it's just not going to happen. It would turn the game on its head balance wise. Seriously. It would break everything.

They have spent years designing the game exactly as it is now basically, intentionally.

5 2
  • 31 Jul '19
 Louie

If you nerf accels and drags by a lot you can't land hits anymore in higher level duels.

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  • 1
  • 31 Jul '19
 Velindian

They'd have to make the swing increase in velocity throughout the release. As well as make sure to limit turncap to a point where you couldn't make the swing velocity so low it looks like a gently floating death stick.

Which would be interesting if executed correctly, but require rebalancing variables on many weapons such as turncap and release.
If you still wanted to make drags/accels actually work at higher level play.

A way of doing it could be making the turncap increase as the swing gets faster, but never the the point it can slow down the weapon's swing arc enough to not realistically impart some degree of force onto the target. In order to keep it looking good without making drag/accels mixups too easy to react to, you could also implement a window in which you could choose to delay your swing up to 100ms. This way you could still look like you are about to do a accel/drag and do the opposite, without turning your weapon into a lightsaber.

Knight 7768 14315
  • 31 Jul '19
 ToLazy4Name

from the realism perspective

stopped reading

3 1

Drags/Accel's is needed for the game to be playable at higher skill levels, or else its all going to boil down to a stamina war.

Duke 553 939
  • 1 Aug '19
 Goatie

I agree some of the fucked up ones need to go. There are so many insta attacks and drags that don't look right that's it's kinda off-putting even coming from almost 3k hours in chiv. I like drags and accels but I don't want to play a game of insta hits and delays that dont match up to what you see again, I'd rather just not play melee if it's going to repeat chiv like that.

93 109
  • 1 Aug '19
 DefendinMyBase

Mordhau combat is a bit weeeeeeeeird, yeah. It's very formulaic and structured, in a way the options work against it because they're hard options. Very little flex is in the game.

I agree and think that would be healthy for the game in a fairness perspective, but people aren't necessarily interested in fairness, otherwise feints and drags wouldn't be in the game in the first place. Mordhau combat is very structured, so the only real way you can reliably win versus skilled opponents is with mind games that are better than their mind games. Parrying and blocking would need a total overhaul if accels and drags got nerfed.

404 607
 smug

Mordhau/Chiv are fundamentally flawed combat platforms in general. The normal attack animations(non dragged/acceled) are borderline useless outside of specific 1vX scenarios like missing on purpose to get a parry out of the 1. This means that the only possible hits you can get on someone are on the first frames or last frames(drags/accels). With feints out of neutral being so bad this means that the game revolves around the mixup of whether or not your opponent will do some weird jpg/wristy twisty/riposte footdrag or accel you. The nature of certain animations + latency makes this kind of cringe inducing to read also and makes the game more about gambles in general. Not very involving gameplay tbh, and I hope they don't intend on pushing duel as an esport.

A good game would of found a way for normal attack animations to have utility, and reintroduce skill in parrying those attacks. You shouldn't HAVE to drag/accel every attack to land a hit on someone. You shouldn't HAVE to riposte 80% of your attacks because riposte makes animations harder to read. However this conversation is an exercise in futility, because it should have taken place a long time ago. The people in the alpha already decided they want to play Chiv 2.0 anyway.

Ironically a buff on making regular attack anims harder to read by decreasing windup/increasing release speeds would nerf he drag meta, the point is we have accels/drags because normal animation attacks are so easy to read you have to be borderline retarded to get hit by them. These were techniques DISCOVERED in chiv BECAUSE at a certain point you NEED to do these things to get a hit on someone outside of chiv's powerful feints. Mordhau should of fixed the flaw with normal attack animations in the first place, which would have given us a drastically different game though. You can never make them easier to read without somehow making normal attacks actually useful again you risk toppling the house of cards.

Knight 7768 14315
  • 1 Aug '19
 ToLazy4Name

and what is your solution? actually decreasing windup and release? without other changes that obviously wouldn't work, so what is your idea exactly?

93 109
  • 1 Aug '19
 DefendinMyBase

I mean I'd suggest making it so that weapons have actual models so the very tip (of the flat) executioner's blade doesn't decapitate and instead does a negligible glancing blow.

That wouldn't even really require changing much just that if you hit someone with the pommel it does a glancing blow so don't abuse accels inside the model too hard with a long weapon ya know? I'd also say you could just give them a windup time and slowdown time so accels and drags do less damage at the very beginning/end. And to make it actually work, make parrying with a weapon use the same sweetspot mechanic shields do. You have to actually interpose your weapon in front of the blade or weapon striking you otherwise you don't parry, or maybe get an ineffective parry where you take some damage and get flinched or something. I wouldn't say have the windup/endswing be a glance though, maybe just half damage.

404 607
  • 3
  • 1 Aug '19
 smug

@ToLazy4Name said:
and what is your solution? actually decreasing windup and release? without other changes that obviously wouldn't work, so what is your idea exactly?

You have to decide what kind of game you want to play. Normal attacks being useless are the sole reason why drags/accels are even useful + even able to be performed. Without long windups and long release times there would be 0 point in dragging.

The question is

Do you want to play Chiv but polished?

OR

A completely new game with new mechanics that are balanced around the fact that normal attacks are now viable attack options. This is where we go the route of introducing directional blocking etc.

My point was that making drags more readable while favorable, is actually damaging to the game because of how much the game depends on drags/accels to make it playable. I don't have a solution to "fix" the gameplay, because the other way we could go is a feint reliant game which is even more cringe. I would honestly push team modes and fix 1vX because its retarded, in 5v5 Skirm the flaws of the game are less evident, but you also have to deal with retarded shit there too so whatever.

Duke 553 939
  • 1 Aug '19
 Goatie

5v5 is cancer TBH. But I agree they should push it as a team game and not 1v1 drag accel simulator.

45 105
  • 1 Aug '19
 Degeneracy

This writing looks quite like Botas style.
Though damage based on angle exists already (glancing blows), it would be interesting to see more of it.

retarded momentum scheme.png

Ideally it would be a more complicated scheme, featuring damage curve from low degrees to center part (and no flinching at extreme points of it), but we all know this is not going to happen.
I also heard there was an attempt to implement momentum based damage system at some point during alpha test, but i can't confirm or disprove that.

86 42
  • 1 Aug '19
 Badass_Ben

People say that such extreme drags are necessary otherwise you could never land a hit
You help that by making the parry box LESS forgiving.
Players should be expected to actually track the tip of the sword instead of just getting away in most cases with a generic parry.

404 607
  • 1
  • 1 Aug '19
 smug

Stricter locational parry opens up a new can of worms like the reintroduction of more effective side stabs and z-stabs, which do raise the mechanical skill ceiling, they would also enrage casuals far more than riposte footdrags and other drags that most people outside of duel servers don't do.

They would also raise the skill ceiling of 1vX or make 1vX even more impossible than it already is depending on your perspective.

There isn't an easy solution except to stop caring about 1v1 balance.

80 117
  • 1 Aug '19
 PinkerStinklage

Dragging isn't the issue, its the animations and the 240 parry shit. I cant really land hits on decent players anymore without abusing this system, where my windup consists of my wrists unwinding in their camera, only to then throw my mouse across the room. It doesn't feel good landing hits because my character model looks absolutely fucked.

1827 1917
  • 1 Aug '19
 SWSeriousMike

You can always duck and use i-frames if you missed your parry.

957 310
  • 1 Aug '19
 Antoniokontos

my biggest gripe is how people who look at the ground are able to block all attacks as well as get past many parries with hardly any effort

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  • 1
  • 1 Aug '19
 Shitscrubber64

Glancing Blow is already in the game and all it does is fuck you up during 1vX.

I've never once had Glancing Blow occur to punish my drags, the only time it triggers is when I try to riposte Dumb #1's swing into Dumb #2 standing behind me.

It gets in the way because it feels like a last-minute attempt to minimize dragging even though the game'd be stale without it. I'd rather not have such mechanics.

So while it's good to discuss realism in Mordhau from time to time, I believe any sort of "realistic momentum" damage system would never work both in duels and teamfights.