Mordhau

"'Mordhau' and the Fantasy of an All-White Middle Ages"

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  • 14 Jul
 CatR

@ToLazy4Name said:

@SWSeriousMike said:
As I said, there is evidence they oppose it and there is evidence they condone it.

There is 0 (zero) evidence that they condone white supremacy. None. Not one bit.

Other than this forum and the discord, and the game. To condone does not mean to 'engage in'.

Knight 7711 14203
  • 14 Jul
 ToLazy4Name

@CatR said:

@ToLazy4Name said:

@SWSeriousMike said:
As I said, there is evidence they oppose it and there is evidence they condone it.

There is 0 (zero) evidence that they condone white supremacy. None. Not one bit.

Other than this forum and the discord, and the game. To condone does not mean to 'engage in'.

I'm aware of what the word means, and i'm also aware that there is no evidence to support the idea that they condone this stuff.

1477 1566

In this game "nigger" is the most popular insult. Usually it's "retard".
We have straight antisemitism in this forum. Those posts haven't been removed or flagged as inappropriate last time I checked.
Multiple people have the idea that this game is about white European identity. Where do they get this idea from?
People here are looking for excuses for the Nazis. Those posts also haven't been flagged or removed.
After all these allegations the devs didn't manage to issue a clear statement distancing themselves from white nationalism.

I could dig through the forum to find more evidence. But what would be the point? You wished for these articles and forum posts. You don't care either way - there is no reason to argue with you.

Knight 7711 14203
  • 14 Jul
 ToLazy4Name

None of that is evidence that they condone it. Allowing people to discuss things (or being too tied up with the actual game to deal with it) is not evidence that they condone white supremacy. This is fucking ridiculous.

1477 1566

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence

There is a difference between evidence and proof.

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Well, in this Forum the bar is just higher than on other forums. Take only the most popular example. Post your Kniggas. In other Forums, this would get deleted or renamed almost immediately. But they even argued: "It's one of our busiest threads." implying that they don't care about the wordplay and like I said, I don't care either because it's a joke and people need to be able to deal with jokes. But I'm still a bit surprised about it, if I were running the forums I'd rename that because I'd be afraid of this kind of PR, especially after witnessing this.

Some people tend to take it a bit too far and the line between jokes and actual racism is blurry to say the least.
How far should the devs allow jokes to go? Is it actual racism or is it just someone who heard of racist trolls in the Mordhau Forums and jumps on the bandwagon rubbing their hands at their keyboards...

399 593
  • 14 Jul
 smug

@ToLazy4Name said:

@SWSeriousMike said:
As I said, there is evidence they oppose it and there is evidence they condone it.

There is 0 (zero) evidence that they condone white supremacy. None. Not one bit.

read the forums

7 13
  • 1
  • 14 Jul
 Ayyske

@PC_Principal said:
Well, in this Forum the bar is just higher than on other forums. Take only the most popular example. Post your Kniggas. In other Forums, this would get deleted or renamed almost immediately. But they even argued: "It's one of our busiest threads." implying that they don't care about the wordplay and like I said, I don't care either because it's a joke and people need to be able to deal with jokes. But I'm still a bit surprised about it, if I were running the forums I'd rename that because I'd be afraid of this kind of PR, especially after witnessing this.

Some people tend to take it a bit too far and the line between jokes and actual racism is blurry to say the least.
How far should the devs allow jokes to go? Is it actual racism or is it just someone who heard of racist trolls in the Mordhau Forums and jumps on the bandwagon rubbing their hands at their keyboards...

Yeah this is an important perspective.

I will say, the important degree here is that, even if YOU don't personally take offense to something like a thread called "post your kniggas" you should still know that it's probably not okay, EVEN IF you only think so for general PR reasons. Informally using a racial slur in the title of one of the forum's most popular thread is a terrible PR faux pas at best, and enabling of hate speech at worst.


If we're basing the standards of the community based only on what personally offends straight white dudes... you're likely to end up with a space that's only friendly and inclusive of straight white dudes. And then it's no wonder that such a community would harbor or attract bigots, white supremacists, etc.

This is all pretty common sense, but on the internet we lag behind on social norms partly because people drive this "SJW propaganda" narrative, as if condemning shitty behavior makes you a nazi. As if disallowing nazis makes you a nazi.

Knight 7711 14203
  • 14 Jul
 ToLazy4Name

@Ayyske said:
I will say, the important degree here is that, even if YOU don't personally take offense to something like a thread called "post your kniggas" you should still know that it's probably not okay, EVEN IF you only think so for general PR reasons.

no lol

7 13
  • 1
  • 14 Jul
 Ayyske

@ToLazy4Name said:

@Ayyske said:
I will say, the important degree here is that, even if YOU don't personally take offense to something like a thread called "post your kniggas" you should still know that it's probably not okay, EVEN IF you only think so for general PR reasons.

no lol

....yes, lol.

I really can't come up with words to explain to you that using racial slurs is bad PR, or a bad look for a community in general (EDIT: And also that refusing to edit/correct/take down racial slurs in your forums constitutes condoning it). If you want the "good ol' days" where everyone can be edgy racists, i dunno, just stay on 4chan or something.

Knight 7711 14203
  • 14 Jul
 ToLazy4Name

@Ayyske said:

@ToLazy4Name said:

@Ayyske said:
I will say, the important degree here is that, even if YOU don't personally take offense to something like a thread called "post your kniggas" you should still know that it's probably not okay, EVEN IF you only think so for general PR reasons.

no lol

....yes, lol.

nope lol

7 13
  • 1
  • 14 Jul
 Ayyske

@ToLazy4Name said:

@Ayyske said:

@ToLazy4Name said:

@Ayyske said:
I will say, the important degree here is that, even if YOU don't personally take offense to something like a thread called "post your kniggas" you should still know that it's probably not okay, EVEN IF you only think so for general PR reasons.

no lol

....yes, lol.

nope lol

I don't usually bust out on the "nice job actually responding to my post" card but here we are lmao. One might assume by your dismissive and avoidant attitude toward valid criticism of the community and the moderation thereof you're explicitly in favor of harboring racism and sexism in the community

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  • 3
  • 14 Jul
 DrGert

@esturias said:
Long story short:
These articles will continue until the devs leave the cozy warmth of their newly bought lounge chairs with massage feature and put away the professionally shaked cocktails with fresh lemon balm from the bar and finally stand up to argue against all this nonsense - or hire a community manager who does that on their behalf.

Noone is expecting a huge press conference with dancers and free beer, just a tiny bit of communication. They didn't do anything wrong that they need to apologise for and noone wants their heads chopped off, the only mistake they did is to stay silent when they were expected to just talk a bit in order to defuse a situation.

I’m not 100% sure I understand what this type of statement would accomplish. Trit has already announced they are, more or less, leaving the ‘power in the players hands’ and as such are giving the players mute functions to cancel out toixic players. Wether that was the right choice or not is irrelevant because that’s what they chose to pursue as their solution and they are backing their decision.

So if Triternion comes out and says “Just so we’re all clear, we don’t support white supremacy, toxic behavior or online bullying of any kind but have no further plans to tighten or increase moderation at this time.” I don’t really see that changing anything or making anyone less or more angry.

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  • 7
  • 14 Jul
 vanguard

@LuxCandidus said:
@vanguard
You are making the same mistake as everyone else dignifying the tripe in that article. Because you are displeased with the state of the community, you are letting it slide that the article is dripping with misinformation, dishonesty, political agenda that goes beyond simply decrying racists, and a complete lack of compassion for a tiny team of first-time developers who are overworked and underprepared for the booming success of their game. If all the article was saying is that the community is toxic, and that it needs to be improved, I would be on board.

Look at the claim it is actually making. It is saying the community got this bad not because moderation was not strict enough, not because there were no official measures against it such as a chat filter, but because the developers picked Medieval Europe as the (very loose) setting for the game, and apparently such a setting is evil and a breeding ground for supremacists, because it is often 'falsely' depicted as being predominantly white and male... even though the developers personally want to include females and darker skin tones, and are still standing by it despite the enormous backlash they have gotten. But let's suppose they didn't include those things, would that make it racist? If so, then I guess Chivalry is a vile, racist game too. I know your views Vanguard, but even you must see how preposterous that statement is.

I really don't see the problem claiming that medieval games are a breeding ground for white supremacists. It in fact is. Same as WW2 games Lux, these are also usually a highly disputed place between white supremacists and commies. See Red Orchestra 2 community for reference. Wehraboos and Tankies everywhere. WIth medieval europe you will have all these white supremacist incels trying to make the game their safe space.

Chiv was also filled with white supremacists, Der Furst came from Chiv's forums. Most of the "famous" right wingers from this forum also did. During early days, this place was literally a extention of Torn Banner's community but without moderation and it was pretty common to see conversations about why whites are biologically superior to everyone else. This shows that Chiv's community was also plaged by this, but moderation didn't allowed it to grow up.

The game not including females or or other skin tones other than whites is really not the problem, indeed, but don't you recognize that there is a group of people who activelly push towards these games to be kept like this and against any sort of diverity, and that these people are in fact 90% of the time fucking nazis or right wing edgelords? Just look at the arguments against women or other skin tones in this game, its glaring. Imagine if Torn Banner announces tomorrow that Chiv 2 will have black people and women, the natural response of a big part of this community will be "hue le SJW devs where muh realism tbh dis jew conspiracy against white man XD muh reparations".

So idk Lux, its not the fact that the game includes or not women and other skin tones other than white, is the fact that part of the community is militant about NOT including these people, and this part of the community are mostly the goddamn nazis and radical right wingers.

I would ignore the historical revisionism they are pushing by claiming Medieval battlefields were teeming with women and black people, because it is a separate discussion entirely, but I would be remiss not to point out journalism is supposed to be unbiased, while clearly the entire article is using Mordhau as an excuse for the writer to push their revisionist political agenda when they are paid to write about video games. In fact, he went out of his way to lie about Mordhau being advertised as historically accurate despite the developers never missing an opportunity to correct that misconception by saying the game is not meant to be a historical simulator at all. He did this so he can compare it to Kingdom Come: Deliverance, and treat them as the same thing, because the developers of that game have already garnered some notoriety by making statements people considered racist or bigoted. Everyone should condemn such cheap dishonesty, regardless of what their views are.

The article claims that this game falls under "low fantasy", which is true. The part where the article says mad shit is here imho, when saying why mordhau has only white males:

"If this was not an intentional design (and I’d like to hope it was not), and the developers were simply working under assumptions they believed were true, it’s hard to fault them--after all, they were working from the same popular culture depictions of medieval race that thousands of creators had before, each built on the same feedback loops of “authenticity” dating back to the Romantics and the Enlightenment scholars that constructed the fantasy in the first place. It is a legacy of obfuscation, designed specifically to play into the biases of early ethnonationalist scholars, artists, and politics. It is a legacy that lives on through not only unintentional depictions of a homogenous white medieval Europe, but through the adherents of modern white supremacy and white nationalism."

It doesn't consider the fact that the devs planed to have other skin tones and women since basically forever. Tbh though, the article is talking about what the game is, its coming from the same point of view of buyers of the released product imho. Its kind of a fair point when you consider that there isn't a roadmap or anything like this stating the plans for the game. It's what probably helps breeding right wing radicals too, since they get into the game and its the fucking white male orgy they always dreamt being part of too tbh, whithout any clear sign that the devs are still working on the customization options for the game.

In the end, this is also related to the fact that Mordhau was released as a finished product instead of a early access game, when in fact it is effectively NOT a finished product. It's clear the devs vision of this game is yet to be turned into reality, it lacks maps and customizations, maybe game modes they want to add etc. I don't blame them for this, money and Steam policies must play a fucking huge role here and it is lack of consideration on the article part to not consider this fact, that money and steam policies forces devs to release games in a state they didn't wanted to, which can cause... unforeseen consequences. But again, we don't have a book of mordhau development history, neither we can read the dev's minds so they must communicate and talk to people about these issues. We know these things because we follow this project and nerd about it since forever, but it's unreasonable to expect that people from the outside will have the same insights we do. Devs must speak up tbh.

And since people are so quick to point the finger at the developers and accuse them of being complicit with the racism, let me point the finger at that journalist and ask where all his outrage at Mordhau's setting was when he was writing his previous article on the game, in which he said he was having a lot of fun. Was he having so much fun he did not notice the characters are male? Or could it be that he liked the game, but as soon as he saw the bandwagon of people writing accusatory articles about the game, he hopped right on to get those clicks?

Sure, journalists do tends to bandwagon on what gives clicks. Really doesn't change the fact that medieval setting in games is a breeding ground for right wing radicals, same as WW2 games. And, although none of us could have predicted this would be such a big thing, I think its time to adress this officialy tbh. Mordhau is at the frontline of this political discussion in gaming communities now, it's not something the devs chose but such is life imho, they got sucked into the whirlwind of politics and now must deal with it.

I mean, this situation can be turned around in favor of the devs, but they must position themselves and say their political stance on all of this, how they view it, how has their experience been with all of this since the begining and all that. Silence and "centrism" will only lead to more shitstorm and people will keep trying to guess what the fuck is actually happening from a dev point of view. Some will say that yes, they are right wing radicals and have always wanted and allowed this to happen; some will say that no, they just could not have imagined this would happen and don't know how to deal with it, and so on. Better is to just say what the fuck is actually going on than to let this fuckery keep building up imho.

Knight 7711 14203
  • 14 Jul
 ToLazy4Name

@Ayyske said:

@ToLazy4Name said:

@Ayyske said:

@ToLazy4Name said:

@Ayyske said:
I will say, the important degree here is that, even if YOU don't personally take offense to something like a thread called "post your kniggas" you should still know that it's probably not okay, EVEN IF you only think so for general PR reasons.

no lol

....yes, lol.

nope lol

I don't usually bust out on the "nice job actually responding to my post" card but here we are lmao. One might assume by your dismissive and avoidant attitude toward valid criticism of the community and the moderation thereof you're explicitly in favor of harboring racism and sexism in the community

no lmao

307 124

@vanguard said:

@LuxCandidus said:
@vanguard
You are making the same mistake as everyone else dignifying the tripe in that article. Because you are displeased with the state of the community, you are letting it slide that the article is dripping with misinformation, dishonesty, political agenda that goes beyond simply decrying racists, and a complete lack of compassion for a tiny team of first-time developers who are overworked and underprepared for the booming success of their game. If all the article was saying is that the community is toxic, and that it needs to be improved, I would be on board.

Look at the claim it is actually making. It is saying the community got this bad not because moderation was not strict enough, not because there were no official measures against it such as a chat filter, but because the developers picked Medieval Europe as the (very loose) setting for the game, and apparently such a setting is evil and a breeding ground for supremacists, because it is often 'falsely' depicted as being predominantly white and male... even though the developers personally want to include females and darker skin tones, and are still standing by it despite the enormous backlash they have gotten. But let's suppose they didn't include those things, would that make it racist? If so, then I guess Chivalry is a vile, racist game too. I know your views Vanguard, but even you must see how preposterous that statement is.

I really don't see the problem claiming that medieval games are a breeding ground for white supremacists. It in fact is. Same as WW2 games Lux, these are also usually a highly disputed place between white supremacists and commies. See Red Orchestra 2 community for reference. Wehraboos and Tankies everywhere. WIth medieval europe you will have all these white supremacist incels trying to make the game their safe space.

Chiv was also filled with white supremacists, Der Furst came from Chiv's forums. Most of the "famous" right wingers from this forum also did. During early days, this place was literally a extention of Torn Banner's community but without moderation and it was pretty common to see conversations about why whites are biologically superior to everyone else. This shows that Chiv's community was also plaged by this, but moderation didn't allowed it to grow up.

The game not including females or or other skin tones other than whites is really not the problem, indeed, but don't you recognize that there is a group of people who activelly push towards these games to be kept like this and against any sort of diverity, and that these people are in fact 90% of the time fucking nazis or right wing edgelords? Just look at the arguments against women or other skin tones in this game, its glaring. Imagine if Torn Banner announces tomorrow that Chiv 2 will have black people and women, the natural response of a big part of this community will be "hue le SJW devs where muh realism tbh dis jew conspiracy against white man XD muh reparations".

So idk Lux, its not the fact that the game includes or not women and other skin tones other than white, is the fact that part of the community is militant about NOT including these people, and this part of the community are mostly the goddamn nazis and radical right wingers.

I would ignore the historical revisionism they are pushing by claiming Medieval battlefields were teeming with women and black people, because it is a separate discussion entirely, but I would be remiss not to point out journalism is supposed to be unbiased, while clearly the entire article is using Mordhau as an excuse for the writer to push their revisionist political agenda when they are paid to write about video games. In fact, he went out of his way to lie about Mordhau being advertised as historically accurate despite the developers never missing an opportunity to correct that misconception by saying the game is not meant to be a historical simulator at all. He did this so he can compare it to Kingdom Come: Deliverance, and treat them as the same thing, because the developers of that game have already garnered some notoriety by making statements people considered racist or bigoted. Everyone should condemn such cheap dishonesty, regardless of what their views are.

The article claims that this game falls under "low fantasy", which is true. The part where the article says mad shit is here imho, when saying why mordhau has only white males:

"If this was not an intentional design (and I’d like to hope it was not), and the developers were simply working under assumptions they believed were true, it’s hard to fault them--after all, they were working from the same popular culture depictions of medieval race that thousands of creators had before, each built on the same feedback loops of “authenticity” dating back to the Romantics and the Enlightenment scholars that constructed the fantasy in the first place. It is a legacy of obfuscation, designed specifically to play into the biases of early ethnonationalist scholars, artists, and politics. It is a legacy that lives on through not only unintentional depictions of a homogenous white medieval Europe, but through the adherents of modern white supremacy and white nationalism."

It doesn't consider the fact that the devs planed to have other skin tones and women since basically forever. Tbh though, the article is talking about what the game is, its coming from the same point of view of buyers of the released product imho. Its kind of a fair point when you consider that there isn't a roadmap or anything like this stating the plans for the game. It's what probably helps breeding right wing radicals too, since they get into the game and its the fucking white male orgy they always dreamt being part of too tbh, whithout any clear sign that the devs are still working on the customization options for the game.

In the end, this is also related to the fact that Mordhau was released as a finished product instead of a early access game, when in fact it is effectively NOT a finished product. It's clear the devs vision of this game is yet to be turned into reality, it lacks maps and customizations, maybe game modes they want to add etc. I don't blame them for this, money and Steam policies must play a fucking huge role here and it is lack of consideration on the article part to not consider this fact, that money and steam policies forces devs to release games in a state they didn't wanted to, which can cause... unforeseen consequences. But again, we don't have a book of mordhau development history, neither we can read the dev's minds so they must communicate and talk to people about these issues. We know these things because we follow this project and nerd about it since forever, but it's unreasonable to expect that people from the outside will have the same insights we do. Devs must speak up tbh.

And since people are so quick to point the finger at the developers and accuse them of being complicit with the racism, let me point the finger at that journalist and ask where all his outrage at Mordhau's setting was when he was writing his previous article on the game, in which he said he was having a lot of fun. Was he having so much fun he did not notice the characters are male? Or could it be that he liked the game, but as soon as he saw the bandwagon of people writing accusatory articles about the game, he hopped right on to get those clicks?

Sure, journalists do tends to bandwagon on what gives clicks. Really doesn't change the fact that medieval setting in games is a breeding ground for right wing radicals, same as WW2 games. And, although none of us could have predicted this would be such a big thing, I think its time to adress this officialy tbh. Mordhau is at the frontline of this political discussion in gaming communities now, it's not something the devs chose but such is life imho, they got sucked into the whirlwind of politics and now must deal with it.

I mean, this situation can be turned around in favor of the devs, but they must position themselves and say their political stance on all of this, how they view it, how has their experience been with all of this since the begining and all that. Silence and "centrism" will only lead to more shitstorm and people will keep trying to guess what the fuck is actually happening from a dev point of view. Some will say that yes, they are right wing radicals and have always wanted and allowed this to happen; some will say that no, they just could not have imagined this would happen and don't know how to deal with it, and so on. Better is to just say what the fuck is actually going on than to let this fuckery keep building up imho.

Just thought I'd quote a quality post and make it appear twice so people can still see it over lazy's quoteception

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I wan my black D2 paladin! And I'm going to use falchion just to piss people off.

133 167
  • 14 Jul
 Atlas-D

@ToLazy4Name said:
None of that is evidence that they condone it. Allowing people to discuss things (or being too tied up with the actual game to deal with it) is not evidence that they condone white supremacy. This is fucking ridiculous.

If you arent smashing and banning dissident and words you disagree with it means you're on their side, clearly, you fucking Nazi. Or maybe they're just reasonable people that have a laissez faire attitude with their platform, which they made clear that they do in the interview with PC gamer.

399 593
  • 14 Jul
 smug

See the problem is you think Trit is on your side.

717 600

@Ayyske said:
I don't usually bust out on the "nice job actually responding to my post" card but here we are lmao. One might assume by your dismissive and avoidant attitude toward valid criticism of the community and the moderation thereof you're explicitly in favor of harboring racism and sexism in the community

he just kinda gets like this when he can't follow the conversation anymore lol