Mordhau

"'Mordhau' and the Fantasy of an All-White Middle Ages"

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  • 14 Jul
 smug

Talking about arrogance is ironic in this case. Everyone who isnt a moron knows about planned genders/ethnicities. That’s not really what this is about though.

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@EatAtRedLobster said:
I am not responding to the article written by this "journalist", and any implications that I didn't read it, or that I just don't "get it" are further examples of the arrogance that some of our newer forum members exude in their pathetic crusade.

I am simply commenting on the recurring trend of an ignorant minority within the community.

u realize the only ppl complaining about that are also the ppl complaining about SJW's and that the devs bent to the will of the journalists

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ah yes because the game doesn't include black female nazis you are now all racists. Thats right.

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lol they always have to add something onto black female because it's too reasonable

Conscript 4546 6279
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  • 14 Jul
 vanguard

@LuxCandidus said:
The biggest slap in the face regarding this sensationalised slander is that the writer got paid to write it. They are not only sabotaging the success of a young and ambitious indie company, but they also make a living out of it. And surprising to no one - they have no idea what they are talking about, else they would know females and darker skin tones are already planned, and were only absent from launch because the developers had to rush the game to a release-worthy state.

Lux, you are old enough on this community to know that this place fucking breeds nazis and fascists of all kinds. The article is not slandering the devs in any way tbh, its just stating this fact. You were here already back in the political thread days, weren't you?

Since fucking forever right wing radicals have tryied to make this community theirs, this is what the article is about and tbh it's very precise, these people are in fact since forever trying to make this community a safe space for right wing radicals, its a disputed territory. And the question that it brings is also expected, are the devs aware of this? How do they position themselves knowing this fact? Are they right wing radicals too or they simply don't know how to handle the situation?

I'm here since fucking forever and I don't know the devs political stance, liking it or not, this is what is at play here, their political stance. I believe they are not right wing radicals because they said they will be adding women and other races to the game, or if they are, they are not allowing their political beliefs mix with their work. Just answer it, its really that simple tbh. Are you guys right wing radicals? How do you feel about the FACT that this community breeds fucking right wing radicals?

If you devs think that taking a stance on this will have a severe impact on the sales numbers or some shit, I have to disagree. If the game is good, no one will give a flying fuck if you guys say all this right wing bullshit in your community is, well, bullshit.

I think honesty is the best way foward tbh, just fucking say it, take a stance on the subject. How do you feel about the politics of your community? Which side are you on?

This right wing problem is present in tons of gaming communities, even here in fucking Brazil tbh. What I think its happening now is that political parties realized gamers are a fucking huge part of their actual and future political cattle, so we have "agents" stirring shit up. Its starting to have a economic effect towards the devs side, and no dev has yet spoken about this fuckery. Maybe its time you know, to adress this fucking elephant in the room, all this obnoxious right wing fuckery in gaming communities.

TLDR: This place effectively has been disputed by right wingers through its history, and I think the devs should make a public post about their views on this subject.

PS: I know the "agents stirring shit up" part sounds kinda conspiracionist, but I have some real fucking good reasons to believe that this shit is actually goddamn real, at least in a few big brazillian gaming communities. I feel like in one of them I poked a wasp's nest, but this is something for another time. Its fucking creepy I shit you not.

Knight 567 1922
  • 14 Jul
 LuxCandidus

@vanguard
You are making the same mistake as everyone else dignifying the tripe in that article. Because you are displeased with the state of the community, you are letting it slide that the article is dripping with misinformation, dishonesty, political agenda that goes beyond simply decrying racists, and a complete lack of compassion for a tiny team of first-time developers who are overworked and underprepared for the booming success of their game. If all the article was saying is that the community is toxic, and that it needs to be improved, I would be on board.

Look at the claim it is actually making. It is saying the community got this bad not because moderation was not strict enough, not because there were no official measures against it such as a chat filter, but because the developers picked Medieval Europe as the (very loose) setting for the game, and apparently such a setting is evil and a breeding ground for supremacists, because it is often 'falsely' depicted as being predominantly white and male... even though the developers personally want to include females and darker skin tones, and are still standing by it despite the enormous backlash they have gotten. But let's suppose they didn't include those things, would that make it racist? If so, then I guess Chivalry is a vile, racist game too. I know your views Vanguard, but even you must see how preposterous that statement is.

I would ignore the historical revisionism they are pushing by claiming Medieval battlefields were teeming with women and black people, because it is a separate discussion entirely, but I would be remiss not to point out journalism is supposed to be unbiased, while clearly the entire article is using Mordhau as an excuse for the writer to push their revisionist political agenda when they are paid to write about video games. In fact, he went out of his way to lie about Mordhau being advertised as historically accurate despite the developers never missing an opportunity to correct that misconception by saying the game is not meant to be a historical simulator at all. He did this so he can compare it to Kingdom Come: Deliverance, and treat them as the same thing, because the developers of that game have already garnered some notoriety by making statements people considered racist or bigoted. Everyone should condemn such cheap dishonesty, regardless of what their views are.

And since people are so quick to point the finger at the developers and accuse them of being complicit with the racism, let me point the finger at that journalist and ask where all his outrage at Mordhau's setting was when he was writing his previous article on the game, in which he said he was having a lot of fun. Was he having so much fun he did not notice the characters are male? Or could it be that he liked the game, but as soon as he saw the bandwagon of people writing accusatory articles about the game, he hopped right on to get those clicks?

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@ToLazy4Name said:
oh no the devs needed to release the game before going into financial ruin and they prioritized actual gameplay over some customization options how could these evil white supremacists do such a thing :^ (

I don't think saying "We dislike white nationalist politicizing our game and forum" would have brought them financial ruin. As I said, there is evidence they oppose it and there is evidence they condone it. You brought examples for one conclusion. That doesn't disprove what I said.
It's not expensive to show your colors. For example I said that I dislike Nazis, racists, etc. And so far I'm not broke and don't have to sleep under a bridge. If I can afford that then millionaires can afford that, too.

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@LuxCandidus:

The article stated that the devs neglected their responsibility of keeping the forum in order and taking a clear position.

The developers of Mordhau, whether they planned to or not, have created an environment that is amenable to the viewpoints of white supremacist appropriators of medieval culture. They have assumed that by staying above the discussion of what does and does not constitute realism, that they could avoid taking a stance on some of these deeper issues—a position that draws uncomfortable parallels to large institutions not taking a stance in 2014’s GamerGate harassment campaigns. Without both a firm refutation of white nationalist sentiment and making the space of the game unfriendly to those ideologies, Triternion risks falling into the same traps as contemporary medievalists dealing with white supremacist infiltration.

The author gives them the benefit of the doubt. As do most people here in the forum (myself included btw). But I wonder for how many articles more they are waiting until they release a simple statement telling the white nationalists or the "SJWs" to fuck off. You were warned by dozens of threads in this forum. Many people predicted this would happen and now you suddenly act surprised.

Many of the players didn't know about the inclusion of female characters. Many people mention to specifically play this game because there are no women and "non-pure" characters. Where was the outrage then?

I get that this isn't fun and working on the game is more interesting. But this is getting worse rather than better. The election 2020 is getting closer.

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  • 14 Jul
 CatR

@LuxCandidus said: And since people are so quick to point the finger at the developers and accuse them of being complicit with the racism, let me point the finger at that journalist and ask where all his outrage at Mordhau's setting was when he was writing his previous article on the game,

I can think of a few plausible scenarios, the chief being that this person enjoyed the game and hadn't taken a stance on it ethically yet. Sort of like how most people deal with everyday activities. I don't take an ethical stance on my jeans very often but when I do I find them lacking. Perhaps they enjoyed the game but heard that all of their grievances were solved in future patches and they should just wait a little bit because the devs are so terribly overworked, and so the person held their peace. Then when the future patches didn't even address it they wrote an article using Mordhau as a reference point for why medieval games are such a slurry of filth. Seems fairly reasonable to me not knowing them or looking into it.

Now, your turn: Why are the developers of Triterion allowing a white nationalist community to grow in their forums and associated community sites without interference? I'd ask them but they're not here. Actions speak louder than words.

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  • 14 Jul
 esturias

Long story short:
These articles will continue until the devs leave the cozy warmth of their newly bought lounge chairs with massage feature and put away the professionally shaked cocktails with fresh lemon balm from the bar and finally stand up to argue against all this nonsense - or hire a community manager who does that on their behalf.

Noone is expecting a huge press conference with dancers and free beer, just a tiny bit of communication. They didn't do anything wrong that they need to apologise for and noone wants their heads chopped off, the only mistake they did is to stay silent when they were expected to just talk a bit in order to defuse a situation.

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  • 14 Jul
 Ayyske

Triternion SHOULD make a statement about far-right radical shit in their community. Honestly, it's a no-brainer, a standard thing to do, and if you've paid attention to gaming for the last few years, you'd have anticipated the need.

The same thing happened with For Honor--neofascists latched onto it. It's a WELL-KNOWN and OBVIOUS fact that white nationalists and alt-righters love violent historical European settings. Like the Vice article describes, the fantasy of White Europe, and the inclusion of ancient Greek and Roman greatness, forms the foundation for white supremacist ideology.

The fact that the devs would have to apply elbow grease in moderating the community or at least publicly condemning hate speech and extremism in their community....should have been anticipated by everyone. This isn't to say that everyone or even most people in the Mordhau community are racist, just that the community does nothing to combat bigotry, and as a result, said bigotry will expand and become more vocal and hijack the image of the community and the game itself. If you don't want that to happen, you should honestly JOIN the call from for Triternion to condemn this and better manage the community.

I was a backer since beta but I only really really jumped into the game yesterday, and it took me all of 20 minutes of gameplay to see the word n**r thrown around, for people to be saying shit like "wow what a queer/f*ggot" etc. and I was floored that there wasn't even an option to report it.

As others have stated, this game is doing surprisingly well. Shrugging off whatever community problems exist may be a luxury afforded to tiny games with niche fanbases (and even those shouldn't, it's just not worth getting mad if they do). This game has somewhat attained AA status, which is amazing and everyone should be happy. But to think that in 2019 game devs or game communities can just sit back and not deal with racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. finding a place in their community is just folly.

(As an aside, "Historical Accuracy" is one big can of worms, but everyone seems to treat it like "realism/immersion" as in, their experience will be ruined by the presence of women jarring them out of their connection to the game. And I just gotta say, character goofily spouting memes like "art thou mad, brother?" has killed my immersion more than an appropriately in-character female knight ever could. Not that I think it matters cuz this is a fucking multiplayer game and true immersion is kind of a joke given that.)

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  • 14 Jul
 CatR

@Ayyske said:
(As an aside, "Historical Accuracy" is one big can of worms, but everyone seems to treat it like "realism/immersion" as in, their experience will be ruined by the presence of women jarring them out of their connection to the game. And I just gotta say, character goofily spouting memes like "art thou mad, brother?" has killed my immersion more than an appropriately in-character female knight ever could. Not that I think it matters cuz this is a fucking multiplayer game and true immersion is kind of a joke given that.)

Aside from this entire discussion, the 'Art thou mad, brother?' line literally made me cringe the first time I heard it. I momentarily wondered if I had been transported 10 years back in time, and I have literally not had as visceral a reaction to any other part of the game or indeed other games for years. If I were ever going to start a campaign for immersion or realism in Mordhau I would fight and die on the hill of removing that line. I would genuinely have "Vote for Shrek-mode" over having that line in the game. Holy heck I am stomping on my hat in anger and throwing stuff around the room kinds of angry at that line.

Knight 399 868
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  • 14 Jul
 Alphonse

@LuxCandidus said:
I would be remiss not to point out journalism is supposed to be unbiased, while clearly the entire article is using Mordhau as an excuse for the writer to push their revisionist political agenda when they are paid to write about video games.

Articles with the tone of the OP (i.e., editorials and opinion pieces) can't be truly unbiased. They are what they are.

I don't want to get into too deep epistemological shit but the gist of it is that journalism --in general-- can't be 100% unbiased because truth and facts in the modern world are non reducible to very fundamental basic principles, i.e., they are not "absolutes". Reporters don't just write "Milk costs $4. An increase of 10% since January", because that would be boring and people don't exactly read newspapers or journals for that reason.

I'd also like to point out the last part of your argument is called a tu quoque fallacy.

I agree with whoever wrote before that the article DOES gives Triternion the benefit of the doubt. The "revisionistic agenda" is the whole point of the article, and it's argued with different cited sources, so I won't go into that either. Where you said he goes out of his way to lie, I'd say the whole paragraph of “historical authenticity” in its "fictional, but realistic world" is open to interpretation. It's reinforced by an earlier paragraph about sympathies and questions just how specific Triternion is in terms of realism, how specific or realistic they should be, and player's own interpretation of the setting.

I also agree with Vanguard that this board is kind of poorly moderated and has always been from both a content and a PoC viewpoint(s). This is pretty obvious. The reason being lack of staff or not wanting to confront with long time supporters. I mean, people call others retards, slurs are used "ironically" (like here) or whatever. It's not like they break rules in too obvious ways, but I'd be suspicious of the "banter". I don't recall ever reading any warning or announcement of the sort "please behave".

I'm inclined to believe those backers are just dumb, or edgy, instead of mean assholes, because I've been reading some of them since the early days of this forum and the Chivalry/Slasher subreddits and I'm not so sure. But with the influx of hundreds of thousands of new players, and a general in a cesspool like 4chan since release, I'm not so sure if a laissez faire approach is the best way to deal with this anyway.

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The Left 4 Dead 2 community is uncensored and we kinda learned to deal with it.
Now I don't play moba, except in original wc3 maybe. So I don't care about the system dota or LOL has.
You can't properly censor the internet. They'll come up with new ways, for example I played with a guy that called himself Neggir. Have fun including that in your word filter tho...

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@THE-REAL-WARSAW said:

@Antoniokontos said:

@THE-REAL-WARSAW said:
here we go again...

your the reason for the Articles lol

I bet you used all 3 of your brain cells for that spark of genius didn't you.

smh,
classic troll post yet again.

I hardly even know how to work a computer let alone troll lol

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  • 14 Jul
 Ayyske

@PC_Principal said:
The Left 4 Dead 2 community is uncensored and we kinda learned to deal with it.
Now I don't play moba, except in original wc3 maybe. So I don't care about the system dota or LOL has.
You can't properly censor the internet. They'll come up with new ways, for example I played with a guy that called himself Neggir. Have fun including that in your word filter tho...

There's a marked difference between a space where someone cleverly skirts the filter and has the name "neggir" (and is probably still laughed at/reported) and one where people can openly say "fuck you n----r" and it's tolerated. Like, it's night and day.

The fact that you won't 100% succeed in "censoring" all expressions of hate speech doesn't mean that it's worthless to try, lmao.

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why even try if you don't "100% succeed?"
A word filter might not be a lot of work to script but it's a lot of work to maintain it and add new words constantly. For what?
So some people can still be offended and report people even though the word filter only reads "*%$! your mother!".
There is a word filter on a poker website that won't let me use the word shit. I use shitty as an adjective on a daily basis. This tilts me into oblivion!

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  • 14 Jul
 Ayyske

I'm not talking about a simple word filter I'm talking about moderating your community in general lmao

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@PC_Principal said:
why even try if you don't "100% succeed?"

Vaccines don't succeed 100%. Traffic lights don't prevent 100% of car crashes. Screening won't detect 100% of cancer. Chemotherapy won't succeed 100% of the times. Condoms don't work 100% of the time. Do I need to go on? Nothing is certain other than death. Fatalism won't achieve anything.

Why do you even post on this forum when the chance that your opinion is noticed is less than 100%?

What you really wanted to say is that this issue isn't important to you.

Knight 7646 14033
  • 14 Jul
 ToLazy4Name

@SWSeriousMike said:
As I said, there is evidence they oppose it and there is evidence they condone it.

There is 0 (zero) evidence that they condone white supremacy. None. Not one bit.