Mordhau

Dissatisfied with the Kick Mechanic

84 42
  • 10 Jul
 Badass_Ben

@DrGert said:

@Badass_Ben said:

@ToLazy4Name said:

@Badass_Ben said:
Play SMARTER

oh wise one, please enlighten us on these advanced high IQ strategies you use to defeat shield users

Honestly, relentless attacks takes care of em pretty quick.
You KNOW you have the stamina edge, play that

Keeping the pressure up works for duels sometimes but this is literally the worst strategy or advice you could give for frontline. No one has the luxury having enough time in frontline to play the stamina game. And to be honest frontline is where the majority of shield frustration comes from. 95%+ of duel server population is 2 handers or targe + 1 hander.

Frontline is supposed to SOMEWHAT represent a medieval battlefield of massive teams fighting each other. As in IRL, yes, shields are going to be stronger in a team situation than in a duel situation. But if you can win your duels, it means you can kill the 1 guy facing you, and then go on to help the rest of your teammates.

Defensively, The TRUE strength of shields is the fact that SINCE it takes longer to kill you, you have a higher likelihood of having teammates come and support you before you are killed. That's how it works in reality and there is nothing wrong with having that in game. 2-handers still lead the leaderboards almost always anyways.

84 42
  • 10 Jul
 Badass_Ben

@Badass_Ben said:

@DrGert said:

@Badass_Ben said:

@ToLazy4Name said:

@Badass_Ben said:
Play SMARTER

oh wise one, please enlighten us on these advanced high IQ strategies you use to defeat shield users

Honestly, relentless attacks takes care of em pretty quick.
You KNOW you have the stamina edge, play that

Keeping the pressure up works for duels sometimes but this is literally the worst strategy or advice you could give for frontline. No one has the luxury having enough time in frontline to play the stamina game. And to be honest frontline is where the majority of shield frustration comes from. 95%+ of duel server population is 2 handers or targe + 1 hander.

Frontline is supposed to SOMEWHAT represent a medieval battlefield of massive teams fighting each other. As in IRL, yes, shields are going to be stronger in a team situation than in a duel situation. But if you can win your duels, it means you can kill the 1 guy facing you, and then go on to help the rest of your teammates.

Defensively, The TRUE strength of shields is the fact that SINCE it takes longer to kill you, you have a higher likelihood of having teammates come and support you before you are killed. That's how it works in reality and there is nothing wrong with having that in game. 2-handers still lead the leaderboards almost always anyways.

I forgot which documentary it was, it was years ago, but it was talking about ancient warfare, and how between two clashing armies, with shields, it WAS very hard to kill the opponent in front of them, so the most effective tactic was to stab the guy your teammate NEXT to you was fighting. That's how the whole idea of "Pawns" in chess came about, how they cant kill RIGHT in front of them, but could more effectively kill opponents that were offset because they would have a better angle to get past a shield.

84 42
  • 10 Jul
 Badass_Ben

@ToLazy4Name said:

@Badass_Ben said:

@ToLazy4Name said:

@Badass_Ben said:
Play SMARTER

oh wise one, please enlighten us on these advanced high IQ strategies you use to defeat shield users

Honestly, relentless attacks takes care of em pretty quick.
You KNOW you have the stamina edge, play that

your idea is to spam lmb

holy shit why did I never think of this before wtf....

I know you are being sarcastic, but it is a fact. Relentless attacks tire out shield users quite fast, especially Heater shields. Kite's take some more work.

274 320
  • 10 Jul
 DrGert

I understand what your saying but the realism argument does not hold weight. This is a video game. And not even an extremely realistic one at that.

The only thing that matters is, does it feel interactive or fun to play with or against a shield. The answer to both of those is commonly, no.

It’s not about playing smarter. Shields are just not in the right place. A rework is definitely needed.

129 181
  • 10 Jul
 CatR

Ben makes fair points. I'd like to add that in Frontline you have 31 other guys on your team most of which are champing at the bit for a kill; let them help you if fighting a shield user is an issue. Whenever I meet an opponent I don't feel comfortable fighting I just wait 2 seconds and someone is there to punish the opponent for being isolated. I see no issue with a game mechanic that challenges you to use a different part of your toolbox, on the opposite I'd call it good design.

They're not perfect, there's definitely room for improvement. But I don't think they need an overhaul, because the top 3 guys on your team aren't using shields.

84 42
  • 10 Jul
 Badass_Ben

@DrGert said:
I understand what your saying but the realism argument does not hold weight. This is a video game. And not even an extremely realistic one at that.

The only thing that matters is, does it feel interactive or fun to play with or against a shield. The answer to both of those is commonly, no.

It’s not about playing smarter. Shields are just not in the right place. A rework is definitely needed.

I respectfully have to disagree with your first statement. Yes, it is a video game, HOWEVER, can you name another more realistic sword fighting game? Not really. There are 1 or 2 you could argue, but I remember back when Mordhau was FIRST announced and I was watching the dev talk, they were talking a LOT about realism. They wanted to make a RELATIVELY realistic sword fighting game, hence the ability to do all these fancy moves such as chambering and parrying, AND having REALISTIC abilities such as throwing a pommel, alternate grips, etc. They wanted Swords to be comparatively ineffective vs plate, compared to blunt weapons, and so on.

So im not saying this is or is supposed to be any sort of simulator, and I agree balance is priority, BUT, a medieval sword fighting game without shields is like a shooter without grenades. Yes, you could get away with it, but lets be honest, it would be missing something.

OVERALL, the performance of shields doesn't feel TOO far off (but I agree, tweaks to things such as kicks and other mechanics need work)
People talk about shields having an insane parry area perhaps have never actually watched or seen a sword fight with shields (I get nerdy into this stuff). Except for extreme instances where I swing into an enemy's back, to only have my strike deflected by his shield IN FRONT of him, hitting around a shield is and should be EXTREMELY difficult. If someone is FACING you with a shield, its borderline impossible without specially designed weapons. The romans faced such a weapon in Germania, blanking on the name, but it was designed such that it could be swung at a shield user and it would reach around and pierce his side, OR hook onto the shield itself to allow the fighter to PULL the shield away from its user.

But other than that, its not really possible.

Knight 7655 14047
  • 10 Jul
 ToLazy4Name

just attack more you idiots lmao ez

394 589
  • 9
  • 11 Jul
 smug

You don't have to be 100+ IQ to realize why "dude just stam the shield user out" in a frontline match is a problematic solution to shields being OP in 1vX.

It's probably torture to play against a REAL shield main in a 1v1 also. Like a real shield player, not a RPer that wants to roleplay as a roman legionary or something. Even if you manage to stam them out, if they can parry normally you're just in the second phase of the boss fight where you still have to deal with retarded 1h bastard sword mixups.

The only reason people won't realize how wacky shields can be is because most good players will never shield main, because it's boring as fuck.

So im not saying this is or is supposed to be any sort of simulator, and I agree balance is priority, BUT, a medieval sword fighting game without shields is like a shooter without grenades. Yes, you could get away with it, but lets be honest, it would be missing something.

This is why I wish someone would make a swordfighting game not in a Medieval setting so they could rid themselves of the "realism" baggage. Personally I didn't buy this game to roleplay so I can't connect with this autism. If you want a HEMA sim just wait for someone to make one for VR, or buy KC:D if you wan't a "realistic but not really" experience. I've thought about how to implement shields in a way that would be satisfactory to both casual and hardcore players, and I honestly don't believe it can ever work, especially in a game where the main mode of defense is timed.

1405 1473

@ToLazy4Name said:

@Badass_Ben said:
Play SMARTER

oh wise one, please enlighten us on these advanced high IQ strategies you use to defeat shield users

Press 'f'.

This wonderful analogy to "just mute them" was brought to you by a salty forum dweller.

30 21
  • 11 Jul
 FΞNIX

Why don't you throw your shield and hop into a tank instead, i think it's immune to kicks.

1405 1473

Because shields can't be thrown. Only dropped.

1090 1721

Even when shields had a tiny parrybox, they were still hard to kill when in a group... simply because they were resistant to feints/timing deceptions, arrows and from people who didn't bother aiming around it. Which was most people.

Shields don't need an accurate parry box to be balanced (though that'd be best,) they just need a less obnoxious parry box that allows the people with brain cells to hit around the shield without a magical forcefield protecting the shields legs and sides in team fights.

Just drastically reduce the parry box and remove kick stun to make shields reliable for pros and less obnoxious when in the hands of a day 1 noob with a rapier. Even a tiny parrybox shield gives noobs the benefit of ignoring most feints in FL... they just need to aim their parries which is pretty intuitive anyways.

190 95

@Soulcatcher said:
Nah it's fuckin' bullshit mate honestly

It's literally just YOU, trying to drain their stamina.

I don't even know what kick does anymore, or how much stamina it drains them. What I do know is it doesn't even stun them anymore. You kick them and accel any attack and it's instantly blocked.

  • Kick doesn't create any openings in their defense
  • You can matrix out of their attack and instantly strike back, but it's insa-blocked because there is no penalty for just holding down RMB.

Only way to beat shields 1v1 is to outstam them with like greatsword.

It's the most BORING fucking thing ever

Literally just doing nothing but accel overheads with GS fighting most shield users, parrying their shitty 1h attacks, hard reading feints or morphs if they bother to do that. Can't punish any of those because they just block.

Stamina wars

Just remove them fuck, atleast the previous kick that had longer range and a good stun punished people who put 20 metric tons of pressure on their RMB and made them have to think a little bit.

Over it, don't even duel shield idiots anymore it's just slow paced, un-interesting, un-skilled backwards and forwards bullshit.

you sound like a whiny baby thats mad that you couldn't slice thru a player with your 12 ft op sword in 1 swing tbh.

they nerfed shields and they gave you ppl a free hit after the kick yet that didn't satisfy you, now you want them gone cause sum1 wants to block with a shield? which you claim is lame that they just rmb

well arent you just smashing lmb?

imagine you going to the king in time of war and saying your grace they are holding up their shields, we cant do anything sire they are blocking our attacks, even with the zweicopter and executioner sword sire they still can block our attacks, we need to nerf them further so we can beat them and boost our lil egos and stroke our lil dicks.

that's how u fkn ppl sound srsly, like spoiled lil children cause you have to swing more than once at some body.

if you were as good as you think you are it wouldn't phase you, pick a diff kit stop playing with cheap skilless fkn weps and you might be able to do sumthing.

wanting ppl to play diff cause its not benefiting your weak skilless lmb play style is a fkn joke, and why all of you will nerf this game to shit just like you did in chivalry!

sire they are using shields again.... lmfao oh this shit is too funny.

want shields nerfed but yet want 12 ft op swords as common place weps smdh

Conscript 227 306

@KIWI said:
Shield suggestion:

Shields have 2 modes.

  1. Block melee mode. This is just a parry, albeit with a larger hit box (not nearly as large as the one it has now, but larger than 1h by itself) and maybe slightly longer active time. Recovery could even be longer for larger shields and shorter for something like the buckler.
  2. Block ranges mode. This is the held block as it is now, however against melee the area is much smaller and stam drain is much harsher (reasoning being you are absorbing all of the energy from that strike rather than deflecting it away like you should). Against ranged everything stays the same.

This way you have a good anti ranged tool while also having to engage in melee with the same timing rules as everyone else.

Guys come on, literally the best of both worlds here and we're having a hissy fit over dumb shit. All the other suggestions here have been "make shield bad" instead of addressing the issue of shields ignoring the timing aspect of combat. Let's use those Jimmy Neutron brains of ours and come up with a feasible solution that actually solves the core issue.