Mordhau

Female Characters

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Personally I don't have that much trouble imagining a world where women exist.

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@SWSeriousMike said:
Personally I don't have that much trouble imagining a world where women exist.

It's really easy to strawman, it's harder to address someone's actual argument. Nowhere do I have trouble imagining a world where women exist. If you're not going to reply to the actual points at hand, and just make up imaginary arguments to refute that nobody is putting forward, you might as well just save the bandwidth and do it offline.

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People keep going on about breaking the "immersion" and "realism" with "waifu warriors" and "screeching harpies." Why exactly are females where so many people seemingly draw the line? In a game where you can beat a man wearing full plate mail to death with your bare hands in seconds, parry a maul with a dagger, cut a man's head clean off with one swing of a sickle, reload a catapult or ballista hands free in around five to ten seconds, place self-building spike walls and mini ballistas, and walk off being stabbed in the head by a polearm in seconds.

In a game where you're just as likely to run into Captain Falcon, or Luigi, or Saitama as you are a historically plausible mercenary (who, even then, has incredibly anachronistic gear; kite shield and rapier, anyone?), find naked men playing Megalovania on a lute on the sidelines (who then proceed to use said lute to kill people), and have men with Oompa Loompa voices shouting "HAVE AT THEM, BOOOYS" "DODGE THIS YOU BASTAAAARD."

It's only when it's a female voice shouting nonsense and screaming her head off. It's only when the half-naked person dancing and playing a lute happens to have tits. It's only when the mercenary running around with clothing and weapons from six different eras just happens to be a woman under that anachronistic mess of armor. It's only when the anime character punching through your plate mail is a magical girl rather than Naruto or whoever the fuck. That's where the line is drawn in the sand. That's when it becomes ridiculous. That's when you can't suspend your disbelief any longer. That's when you need a toggle to pretend it's not there.

I can't speak for the devs, but I won't miss those people if they leave.

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Realism and immersion have already been refuted as arguments multiple times. What do you think you will achieve here? The matter is already decided.

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@ColonelMustache said:
In a game where you can beat a man wearing full plate mail to death with your bare hands in seconds, parry a maul with a dagger, cut a man's head clean off with one swing of a sickle, reload a catapult or ballista hands free in around five to ten seconds, place self-building spike walls and mini ballistas, and walk off being stabbed in the head by a polearm in seconds.

Whether or not you personally agree on its immersion, if you can preserve the immersion and believability other players had when they bought the game, why not do it? Do you really consider it a more sensible course of action to try and convince everyone that their suspension of disbelief is fine, and tell them to fuck off if they don't like it?

Everyone's suspension of disbelief is different, which is why some would be fine with Sauron armor and unicorns being added to Mordhau, and others would not.

To me, Mordhau's breaks with reality are uncommon or not obtrusive, so they don't break the overall immersion. Last time I died to fists in T3 was probably when I first started playing. I don't use a toolbox so autoconstructing spikes isn't an issue, neither do I use maul or dagger, and even if I did the occasion where the two would fight each other would not exactly happen often. The times I'm the one of 64 people in a server firing a catapult, I'm not looking at the mechanism, I'm looking at the battlefield ahead (and by the way I think touching up the cata animation would be a good idea too). Every polearm except Bardiche oneshots T0 heads, so no, you won't be walking away if you got hit in the head- and being hit in the helmet is not the same thing.

To compare this to a horde of people's waifus on every battlefield, constantly screaming, always present at all times to the eyes and ears is a clear false equivalency. It's much more noticeable by far than the sum total of anything you listed. And you're not going to fix that for all these players by saying "well the catapult animation is off too, lol."

In a game where you're just as likely to run into Captain Falcon, or Luigi, or Saitama as you are a historically plausible mercenary (who, even then, has incredibly anachronistic gear; kite shield and rapier, anyone?), find naked men playing Megalovania on a lute on the sidelines (who then proceed to use said lute to kill people), and have men with Oompa Loompa voices

Every cosplay just looks like red+black or blue+white medieval clothing in Frontline, no matter what cosplay it was originally trying to be. Maybe people have been dressing up as Captain Falcon in my games? I wouldn't even know. This build is not recognizable without the colors, so it has 0 effect on immersion.

As for outdated equipment: How do you think medieval equipment survived a thousand years to the current day to be sitting in museums? You think it just stopped existing? In the time period of the upper bound of Mordhau's equipment (late 15th/early 16th century), mercenaries WERE using a mishmash of polearms, chain, plate, frilled ruffs, bows, swords, polearms, and light clothing on European battlefields. Kite+rapier combo, again, isn't a common sight. Heater+rapier is, but that isn't too far from reality. Lutes, ah yes lutes, the thing I see in the hands of one person standing at the sidelines (as you said yourself) in maybe one in 3 Frontline games, that's definitely the same thing as a battlefield full of people's waifus as active, in-your-face combatants, in every game.

Players cannot be "naked" in Mordhau.

(Summary)

Everything in your summary is answered above.

I can't speak for the devs, but I won't miss those people if they leave.

I'm hearing echoes of the Battlefield V developers and defenders telling people "just leave" for wanting immersion in the setting. We all know how that turned out, and Mordhau does not have the massive fanbase the Battlefield series does to survive losing a big chunk of players in its first year.

It's not worth it. There's no good reason to deny people the toggle.

@SWSeriousMike said:
realism and immersion have already been refuted as arguments multiple times

Feel free to point us to this "refutation". And like I said: Even if you could convince me that my suspension of disbelief is just fine, good luck convincing everyone else.

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  • 8 Jul
 CatR

@ColonelMustache said:

I might just save this for having the argument put together so succinctly.

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To compare this to a horde of people's waifus on every battlefield, constantly screaming, always present at all times to the eyes and ears is a clear false equivalency. It's much more noticeable by far than the sum total of anything you listed. And you're not going to fix that for all these players by saying "well the catapult animation is off too, lol."

Compared to the current hordes of munchkin voices on every battlefield, constantly screaming, always present at all times to the eyes and ears. The voices in Mordhau, as well-done as they are, are absolutely goofy already, especially when the pitch slider is put all the way up.

neither do I use maul or dagger, and even if I did the occasion where the two would fight each other would not exactly happen often.

I used the most extreme example for the sake of example. Replace the maul with any large, two-handed weapon, and the dagger with any small, one-handed weapon.

Every polearm except Bardiche oneshots T0 heads, so no, you won't be walking away if you got hit in the head- and being hit in the helmet is not the same thing.

Adding a leather cap doesn't exactly make that scenario any less ridiculous.

Do you really consider it a more sensible course of action to try and convince everyone that their suspension of disbelief is fine, and tell them to fuck off if they don't like it?

At this point, honestly? Yeah. Fuck it. This kind of attitude is so common in the game industry and so goddamn obnoxious that yeah, I've pretty much become that petty.

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@link_mah_boi said:

@SWSeriousMike said:
realism and immersion have already been refuted as arguments multiple times

Feel free to point us to this "refutation". And like I said: Even if you could convince me that my suspension of disbelief is just fine, good luck convincing everyone else.

I don't need to convince you or everyone else. That shit has been decided long before you started crying about it.

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this whole thing is very easily resolved. just have people upload photos of their skin and genitalia to the forums, and assign them an in game race and sex based on that. those who refuse to upload can simply be permabanned. this also means that the real penis size and shape of each player can be accurately represented in game, which will appeal to fans of realism such as myself

Knight 7681 14085

@link_mah_boi said:

@Lincs said:
Not their stats.

Check again, because you're wrong. Picking a female character makes you -STR 1 and -CHA 1 relative to your ingame male counterpart in Warband. It also reduces your starting weapon proficiencies.

yeah except that Warband is a single player RPG hybrid weirdo game whereas Mordhau is not. Hell, outside of the starting differences females had the same potential as males, unless you took a male character and pumped all of your attribute points only into the ones that the females started out lower in. Also, they had no stat penalties in the multiplayer.

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  • 8 Jul
 mr_jah

link_mah_boi, you sir is good. All those half-brain nerds trying to argue just prove your point. GJ man.

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Those half-brained devs still won't listen to you. Please go away.

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@ColonelMustache said:
hordes of munchkin voices on every battlefield, constantly screaming, always present at all times to the eyes and ears.

Hold up... voices are visible now? But anyway, I just played 2 games of Frontline, and all the voices and battlecries and grunts were male voices at normal levels of pitch. There were no munchkin voices.

I used the most extreme example for the sake of example. Replace the maul with any large, two-handed weapon, and the dagger with any small, one-handed weapon.

If you think a steel arming sword held at an angle in front of the body can't knock away a 3kg zwei swing I think your scenario is the unrealistic one. Maul, sledge and estar are the only ones pushing it, and they have plenty of stam drain so they're not far from reality either.

Adding a leather cap doesn't exactly make that scenario any less ridiculous.

Half of the T1 hats are mail. This is what I'm saying again about uncommon scenarios.

Yeah, (I consider it a more sensible course of action to try and convince everyone that their suspension of disbelief is fine, and tell them to fuck off if they don't like it.) Fuck it. This kind of attitude is so common in the game industry and so goddamn obnoxious that yeah, I've pretty much become that petty.

So in other words your pettiness is making you unreasonable.

@SWSeriousMike said:
I don't need to convince you or everyone else.

And yet you're happy to keep posting. Obviously the "refutation" was a lie.

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@SWSeriousMike said:
Weak bait.

It's nothing but legitimate argument in for a position many players in this game hold. You, on the other hand, are clearly shitposting.

129 181
  • 8 Jul
 CatR

Weak bait.

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  • 8 Jul
 Unlikely

The claimed desire for realism and immersion is so selective. Where are the demands for realism and immersion when bots are throwing turds, or when warriors are arming themselves with frying pans? Who complains that characters in Mordhau wind up and telegraph every single cut and thrust, something a good fencer doesn't do? Nobody is complaining about those things. (Well, OK, some people have asked that turds be nerfed, so there's that.)

No, only the prospect of women and brown people in the game causes this sudden and convenient desire for realism. This is how we know that the people demanding no women because realism! are arguing in bad faith.

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  • 8 Jul
 CatR

What if it was never about realism and in reality it was an emotional reaction stemming from neophobia and then internally these people have rationalized it as an issue of realism while in reality they simply applied the concept of realism to it because they couldn't internalize that they have a fear and possibly dislike of social groups they don't consider themselves a part of because of their highly tribalistic upbringing.

I mean there is the alternative that they're all just lying bigoted pricks which is equally possible but I like to give some credit. At any rate bring back Battlefield 2142.

Baron 1604 5086
  • 8 Jul
 Lincs

@link_mah_boi said:
Check again, because you're wrong. Picking a female character makes you -STR 1 and -CHA 1 relative to your ingame male counterpart in Warband. It also reduces your starting weapon proficiencies.

Hmm, I stand corrected. Regardless, M&B is a sandbox strategy/roleplaying game in which stats like strength and charisma can be relevant. Again, Mordhau is a fighting game where basic qualities like height are equal and damage values are universal. Forcing some stat penalties on certain characters for a cosmetic difference would be asinine and damage Mordhau's competitive design.

Again you need to factcheck. Direct quote from the Steam store page: "Believable fights: A game where fights look believable". And also: "MORDHAU is a medieval first & third person multiplayer slasher. Enter a hectic battlefield as a mercenary in a fictional, but realistic world". You also have Jax saying in the video on that page: "you can fully immerse yourself in your medieval warrior", "inspired by historically accurate weapons from the medieval era," and "a historically accurate peasant weapon."

So you can't dispute that they promised the players immersion, realism, and believability.

Again, as with the false Battlefield comparison, you are drastically bending the details to fit your argument. Fictional, but realistic means no fantasy elements, fights that look like fights, and something resembling medieval warfare. You can even see that when he's discussing historical accuracy in your own quotes, he's referring to weapon and armor design. It was never, ever promised that Mordhau would take place in a historically accurate Europe or European parallel setting, and it doesn't.

It shouldn't even have to be explained that, even if you want to leave aside historical accuracy, it's not "believable" or "realistic" to see and hear 25% of the combatants on your battlefield as waifu cosplays. Whether or not it's popular to say, we all know men are a lot stronger, faster, and more resilient than women. This is why we don't have women frontline fighters even in most modern, progressive armies where all you have to do is pull a trigger, let alone fight in highly physical melee. Which makes it especially damaging to the immersion here.

Your issue with this is entirely not my, or anyone else's, problem.

Also, these aren't gonna be fucking waifus. As shown in the second dev blog they're just as tall, broad, and muscled as the males. Think Brienne of Tarth.

What do you expect when we see these same arguments being made every single day despite being consistently refuted?

How bored you are of sitting on forums isn't relevant, the core argument of this thread has not been refuted by any poster:

Players who bought this game were promised believability, realism, and immersion, and we made the decision of whether it was believable for us or not based on what was shown on the game's store page. Female waifu warriors, which do damage many of our immersion, were not shown. There is no good reason not to add a toggle. Therefore, add a toggle and allow players to restore the realism they were promised.

The only time you're ever concerned about immersion is where this topic is concerned.

It's a valid comparison because whether or not Mordhau named a specific year, it did still name a "believable, realistic, medieval" setting which is unmistakably European. Actually it's a generous comparison, because even DICE let buyers know on the cover of the game that it had female frontline fighters, making its claims of realism obviously untrue to the buyer.

Nope. It's not European, and it's not the same world. It's European-inspired. And regardless, the Battlefield comparison is still false.

It would be like if Triternion gave us a game purported to depict a mostly historically accurate version of William the Conqueror's campaign against England, and then showed us in the first trailer an Asian man with a bionic arm on a horse, holding a lance and carrying a katana.

Thankfully, Triternion has instead given us a game with realistic, believable warfare with an ambiguous enough setting that we can have the full freedom to customize our characters however we want, be they a male Landsknecht or a female Viking.

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@CatR said:
I mean there is the alternative that they're all just lying bigoted pricks which is equally possible but I like to give some credit.

gamers being bigoted? literally never happened in the history of video games. this is clearly liberal SJW propaganda propagated by game journalism covering up corruption #gamergate