Mordhau

Female Characters

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Since release I really liked the way devs were handing Mordhau, no complaints, except maybe Crossroads blue spawn. I only found out after buying the game that female characters would be added (the Steam store page didn't ever mention it), but in the thread I found out, a mod said devs were going to give people the option to play Mordhau all-male (or all-female) clientside. That sounded sensible: people get to see what they want and everyone's happy.

Then recently, devs say: "the concept of a gender option toggle was dismissed as it would undermine the customization players work hard to create." This is terrible reasoning for dropping a good idea.

If all players have to be forced to always see your loadout exactly the way you want it, Triternion wouldn't have changed people's loadout colors to red/black and blue/white in Frontline. Obviously, customization can be undermined for the benefit of other players.

Let's say for example's sake 10% of the playerbase wanted the option to toggle off female skins/voices. In that situation:

  • A toggle lets a person dressed as Arya Stark get what they want, to be seen by 10,800 other players as a girl, and everyone is happy.

  • No toggle means 2,400 disappointed, irritated customers out of the total playerbase. And nobody benefits.

When female characters are added one day, and players open Mordhau to find a constant horde of loudly screeching 0/3/3 harpies added to their medieval game they can't turn off, I can say for a fact: some players are going to leave. Look at what happened to Battlefield V: Plenty of people just left.
Whether that will be a few or a lot who quit, I can't say. But it would be a dumb risk to take, for no good reason. A toggle is an honest, sensible course of action which gives all the paying customers what they want.

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PS: Yes, I realize Mordhau is not 100% historically accurate by any means. But what they did advertise to us with this game multiple times was "believable fights" and "immersive". For many of us, seeing a crowd of people's 0/0/0 waifus in every game, spamming V and going toe-to-toe with dudes three times their biological strength in a medieval setting, takes all believability and immersion out of the game just as much as seeing a Chiv ballerina did. No amount of arguing is going to change that. So if we can keep players from quitting with a simple option that hurts nobody, we should.

Knight 7577 13875

Nobody quit Warband because of female characters and no one is going to here. Anyone who unironically drops the game because of someone else's customization is a mong and probably won't be playing the game by the time female characters are added.

32 22
  • 7 Jul
 Layla

There is not going to be any toggle?, LOL im done with this trash.

Knight 7577 13875

@Layla said:
There is not going to be any toggle?, LOL im done with this trash.

you've commented in multiple threads discussing this and you're suddenly only finding out now? idk whose alt you are but step it up my man

32 22
  • 7 Jul
 Layla

@ToLazy4Name said:

@Layla said:
There is not going to be any toggle?, LOL im done with this trash.

you've commented in multiple threads discussing this and you're suddenly only finding out now? idk whose alt you are but step it up my man

I just found out about this none of the other post says anything about the toggle, and i would be glad if someone pointed me out to the dev statemenr on this, to the source.

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@ToLazy4Name said:
Nobody quit Warband because of female characters and no one is going to here. Anyone who unironically drops the game because of someone else's customization is a mong and probably won't be playing the game by the time female characters are added.

Warband is a great game, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

Warband had a woman warrior on the damn cover, so everyone knew what they were getting into. With its explicitly non-Earth fantasy setting of Calradia, and its frankly janky visuals and animations even for its day, nobody was expecting 'believable fights'. On top of all that, Warband realistically penalizes female characters' stats in singleplayer, too.

And I already own Warband. One of the main reasons I chose to spend $30 USD on Mordhau was its advertised "believability" being better than Warband's.

Insulting players doesn't build your argument, it's just being tonedeaf to a legitimate community complaint. And it's the exact same sort of behaviour I saw out of defenders of Battlefield V before its release. "Just don't buy the game if you don't like it!" We all know how that went.

Saying "good riddance" to quitters is not a good thing for a game with a concurrent population barely staying over 10,000 2 months after release. Retaining players is a good thing for Mordhau, and when there's an option that makes everyone happy and will retain players, it should be taken.

2 3
  • 7 Jul
 ΘЖ

@link_mah_boi said:

Saying "good riddance" to quitters is not a good thing for a game with a concurrent population barely staying over 10,000 2 months after release. Retaining players is a good thing for Mordhau, and when there's an option that makes everyone happy and will retain players, it should be taken.

wtf...
1º Enter STEAMCHARTS, the last 30 days have connected 28,000 players to mordhau. I do not know where you got the 10,000 players.

2º Come out of your comfortable stereotype of the Middle Ages, in the middle ages there were women warriors, Nordic, Asian, Amazonian, etc ... Basically in any culture that was not Christianity. Adding female characters is not unrealistic, the unrealistic will be the amount of virtual transvestites there will be.

3º If you really see that this is an "insult to the players". And you think that the game loses all the realism, I recommend you leave the game, and go to play KingdomCome Deliverance, that's a medieval emulator, Mordhau is a game "Hack and Slash" where the main objective is to have fun, and if Skirts, or feminine screams make you not have fun is your problem, not the game.

129 180
 CatR

Since release I really liked the way devs were handing their lunch, no complaints, except maybe when they took the pickles off of that burger. I only found out after buying the game that male characters would be predominant (the Steam store page didn't ever mention it), but in the thread I found out, a mod said artists were going to give people the option to play Mordhau all-female (or all-male) clientside. That sounded like a PR nightmare: people get to see what they want and you make people who react violently to conventional social norms happy.

Then recently, the community moderator said: "the concept of a gender option toggle was dismissed as it would undermine the customization players work hard (oh baby) to create." This is a perfectly valid reasoning for dropping an idea that while having intellectual merit doesn't fit into the scope of the project.

If all players have to be forced to always see your loadout exactly the way you want it, Triternion wouldn't have changed people's loadout colors to green/black and purple/white in Frontline. A tenuous connection here, is that customization can be undermined for the facilitation of the core gameplay mechanics.

Let's say for example's sake 69% of the playerbase wanted the option to toggle off male skins/voices. In that situation:

A toggle lets a person dressed as some shrek-lookin' mother... get what they want, to be seen by 10,800 other players as a clown, and that one single person and probably an even smaller subsection of the 10% are happy, not accounting for people who simply do not care one way or another.

No toggle means 1,200 disappointed, poobaby customers. And 10,800 people benefit.

When male characters are not removed; one day players open Mordhau to find a constant horde of loudly screeching 3/3/0 gorillas added to their medieval game they can't turn off, I can say for a fact: some players are going to assume all of these people are basically animals in human clothes. Look at what happened to Battlefield: That franchise hasn't been good since Battlefield 3, and what's with the stupid naming convention? Make ONE good game and see if it sells you absolute tossers. Also where the DICKENS is Battlefield 2142 2?
Whether that will be a few or a lot who quit, I can say because I have already established my percentages are largely made up, not that that's a bad thing it's just that they have no relation to actual statistical data and I hope I didn't come across the way that I did have this data because I was really just making an opinion piece. Actually now that you mention it I'll go back and I'll rewrite it so it seems a little less declarative, after all we're all just sharing our opinions and enjoying the liberties of a liberal western democracy. Most of us anyway. But it would be a dumb risk to take, for no good reason. A toggle is a way to prevent people from having to respect the identity of others, the sensible course of action which gives all the paying customers what they want is to remove males.

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@ΘЖ said:
STEAMCHARTS, the last 30 days have connected 28,000 players to mordhau. I do not know where you got the 10,000 players.

I said "just over 10,000 concurrent." Concurrent means at the same time. In other words, the 24-hour peak of Mordhau's playerbase. 30-day total is kind of irrelevant, because you can only play a game with the people who are on at the same time as you, in the same region.

in the middle ages there were women warriors, Nordic, Asian, Amazonian, etc... Adding female characters is not unrealistic

There were not nordic female warriors actually, that's meme-tier history, as a female professor of Viking studies can tell you. "Amazonians" are literally an ancient Greek myth. Finally, female Asian warriors (also uncommon) do not explain the existence of a female warrior in medieval European gear. There are 0 historical examples of group of women in armor physically fighting men on a medieval European battlefield.

Anyway, the main complaint is not even historical accuracy- it's the "believability" Mordhau was advertised for. You want to see what a woman fighting a man looks like? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRfCpQx_FDE The strongest of women are still physically weaker than the average man. That's why we have mens' and womens' sports categories, because even a drunk player ranked 203rd in men's tennis can beat the 20th best female tennis player in the world 6-1, and a team of boys can beat the national womens' football team 7-0. That's why we have lower physical requirements for women entering the police force. That's why dudes get asked to do hard things for women, lol.

It's not a popular fact to state, but it's true, many of us know it, and for a game that promises "believable fights", it makes it very hard to believe.

I recommend you leave the game

Like I said, that's a stupid thing to recommend to anyone if you want this game to keep having a playerbase in a year.

This whole argument isn't necessary when there's no good reason not to add the toggle.

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@CatR said:
(strawman argument)

Pretty much none of the switcheroo comparisons in your post make sense (...how do 10,800 people "benefit" from no gender toggle?) and are ridiculously grasping at straws, but kudos for sticking so hard to the bit.

The only serious point you tried to make was "respecting the identity of others." Why is one customer's "identity being respected" more important than another player's desire for believable fights in a game that was advertised as having them, exactly?

If your "identity being respected" means other people seeing your female loadout, then most people in the server will be seeing your loadout, so your identity is being respected, toggle or no toggle.

129 180
  • 7 Jul
 CatR

I also wrote "69%". Didn't know I was arguing for anything except for the critical darling Battlefield 2142 to return to modern age.

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@Layla said:

@ToLazy4Name said:

@Layla said:
There is not going to be any toggle?, LOL im done with this trash.

you've commented in multiple threads discussing this and you're suddenly only finding out now? idk whose alt you are but step it up my man

I just found out about this none of the other post says anything about the toggle, and i would be glad if someone pointed me out to the dev statemenr on this, to the source.

https://mordhau.com/forum/topic/18661/triternions-official-statement-in-regards-to-recen/?page=1

It's easy to miss. It's only a sticky topic in the announcement subforum and directly below the forum rules.

81 30
  • 7 Jul
 de.tail

People left BFV because they added females? I haven't played it in an age because it's a buggy unoptimized mess that runs worse & worse with each update. Also it's more or less exactly the same as BF1. The only thing that keeps most players coming back to BFV are the tides of war challenges they keep dishing out in which you get to unlock various weapons/cosmetics by completing the challenges.

10.8k people vs 1.2k people. Who cares? I just want the option to mute/turn down the volume of voice over lines so I don't have to listen to people constantly spamming them - regardless of gender.

As for females & other ethnicities, player customization is one of the features that bring in a lot of players these days - setting aside historical accuracy / accuracy in general. While it might not be important to the small handful of core players, it's probably one of a small handful of features the game has to offer that will entice casual players into handing over their money - especially if they can cosplay as one of their favourite GOT characters, or Conan the Barbarian, or x character from Vikings, etc.

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@de.tail said:
People left BFV because they added females?

Yes. It was a big and well publicized controversy, and at release, before people had even had a chance to play it, Battlefield V sold fewer than half the copies that Battlefield 1 did upon its launch during the same period of time.

Also it's more or less exactly the same as BF1.

And that game didn't try and add females into a historical setting in a role where they weren't present (not until well after BFV, anyway).

10.8k people vs 1.2k people. Who cares?

It wasn't meant to be a "vs", it was saying "with a toggle, people who want to dress up as girls can still be seen by huge amounts of people, and without a toggle, a smaller but still significantly large amount of customers are annoyed."

As for females & other ethnicities, player customization is one of the features that bring in a lot of players these days - setting aside historical accuracy / accuracy in general. While it might not be important to the small handful of core players, it's probably one of a small handful of features the game has to offer that will entice casual players into handing over their money

I'm not saying remove character customization. If you want to make a female character you still can, and you can still be seen/heard by lots of people. The only people who will not see/hear your character as female are those who don't want to and can be bothered to find the toggle option. Everyone wins.

178 165
  • 7 Jul
 Unlikely

Are you still fighting for the toggle that's never going to happen?

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@Unlikely said:
Are you still fighting for the toggle that's never going to happen?

Is it so hard to actually read the original post of this thread, and see that this thread is a response to that?

Baron 1600 5076
  • 7 Jul
 Lincs

@link_mah_boi said:
With its explicitly non-Earth fantasy setting of Calradia

This also describes Mordhau.

On top of all that, Warband realistically penalizes female characters' stats in singleplayer, too.

Not their stats. It makes it more difficult for them to climb the social ladder, and such mechanics are not present in Mordhau, a timing-based fighting game.

And I already own Warband. One of the main reasons I chose to spend $30 USD on Mordhau was its advertised "believability" being better than Warband's.

Please elaborate on what you mean by believability - if you're referring to the combat, then I'm not sure what you're upset about. Again, Mordhau is explicitly not a real historical setting, so there's no other "believability" to be had, nor was there any such thing advertised in the original material.

Insulting players doesn't build your argument, it's just being tonedeaf to a legitimate community complaint.

What do you expect when we see these same arguments being made every single day despite being consistently refuted? Also, referring to Battlefield V is a false comparison. Battlefield explicitly takes place in a real world, historical setting, and featured frankly offensively inaccurate details. Were Mordhau such a game, I would be on your side of this debate.

Saying "good riddance" to quitters is not a good thing for a game with a concurrent population barely staying over 10,000 2 months after release. Retaining players is a good thing for Mordhau, and when there's an option that makes everyone happy and will retain players, it should be taken.

I hesitate to say that it would make everyone happy. It was a good compromise, but perhaps a compromise wasn't necessary. Look at the drama its hypothetical inclusion is already causing.

81 30
  • 7 Jul
 de.tail

@link_mah_boi aye I know they didn't do well in sales. I literally bought the deluxe edition via origin just after the first week or so with a 50% discount or something. Was what €25 or something - I can't remember the exact price. Don't really know why I bothered getting it to be honest as I haven't enjoyed it & the only reason I bought it was because the people I play with in a small gaming community I'm in were playing it. I've not really enjoyed battlefield since BF4 & Bad Company 2.

I don't really follow gaming news much - or news in general for that matter. I just assumed it was because it's a badly optmized mess of a game. BF1 is also bad in terms of optimization. I used to get 60fps on that when it came out. High settings, 60fps @ 1080p, then after a few updates (anti-cheat nonsense) my fps kept decreasing & decreasing & the last time I tried playing it I was getting about 25-60fps on lowest settings. I get around 30-60fps on BFV on lowest settings.

As for the toggle it sounds simple, but it's also not. They'd either have to figure out whether to convert everyone who is male/female (depending on which toggle is selected) into a generic male/female or keep the current facial settings & voice pitch etc. I guess if voices for both had same voice styles such as raider, bandit, etc then you could easily change from male to female version or vice versa.

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@Lincs said:
Not their stats.

Check again, because you're wrong. Picking a female character makes you -STR 1 and -CHA 1 relative to your ingame male counterpart in Warband. It also reduces your starting weapon proficiencies.

nor was there any such thing advertised in the original material.

Again you need to factcheck. Direct quote from the Steam store page: "Believable fights: A game where fights look believable". And also: "MORDHAU is a medieval first & third person multiplayer slasher. Enter a hectic battlefield as a mercenary in a fictional, but realistic world". You also have Jax saying in the video on that page: "you can fully immerse yourself in your medieval warrior", "inspired by historically accurate weapons from the medieval era," and "a historically accurate peasant weapon."

So you can't dispute that they promised the players immersion, realism, and believability.

It shouldn't even have to be explained that, even if you want to leave aside historical accuracy, it's not "believable" or "realistic" to see and hear 25% of the combatants on your battlefield as waifu cosplays. Whether or not it's popular to say, we all know men are a lot stronger, faster, and more resilient than women. This is why we don't have women frontline fighters even in most modern, progressive armies where all you have to do is pull a trigger, let alone fight in highly physical melee. Which makes it especially damaging to the immersion here.

What do you expect when we see these same arguments being made every single day despite being consistently refuted?

How bored you are of sitting on forums isn't relevant, the core argument of this thread has not been refuted by any poster:

Players who bought this game were promised believability, realism, and immersion, and we made the decision of whether it was believable for us or not based on what was shown on the game's store page. Female waifu warriors, which do damage many of our immersion, were not shown. There is no good reason not to add a toggle. Therefore, add a toggle and allow players to restore the realism they were promised.

Also, referring to Battlefield V is a false comparison.

It's a valid comparison because whether or not Mordhau named a specific year, it did still name a "believable, realistic, medieval" setting which is unmistakably European. Actually it's a generous comparison, because even DICE let buyers know on the cover of the game that it had female frontline fighters, making its claims of realism obviously untrue to the buyer.

but perhaps a compromise wasn't necessary. Look at the drama its hypothetical inclusion is already causing

Not from players. From PCGamer. And even PCGamer didn't make any "drama" over it, it just mentioned it. How many people did you see complaining that a toggle would be possible before that article? Plus, PCGamer's readerbase has already read the article. All the developers backpedaling on a toggle did for them was get an amendment to the article which nobody will ever go back to read anyway. Any damage that can possibly be done by PCGamer has already been done.

The drama being caused is over the toggle being deconfirmed. That's why many threads like this have existed. That's why many threads like it will continue to be made, like this one from 8 hours ago, especially when players who just play the game without paying attention to game journalists or dev statements open up their copy of the game one day to find screeching harpies in it that they can't turn off.

There is no good reason not to give players the option to see what they want to see, whether that be all-male, male/female, or all-female. As an example of another game doing something similar, Spelunky was criticized for having damsels in distress in the game, and so allowed players to pick whether they had female, male, or dog damsels in options settings.