Mordhau

Toxicity / trolling will now become worse, thanks to the update

15 8
  • 5
  • 26 Jun '19
 Vieloł

@Unlikely said:
@2B:

But I think a Simple Solution to all the Toxic and Trolling on Mordhau is simple. A list of Banned words that can result in Temporary Bans

The problem with banning words is that context is ignored. Racist speech doesn't require any particular word to be racist. There are many examples here. A simplistic ban on certain words might even cause someone to be banned who is in fact objecting to the hate speech rather than promoting it. This happens regularly on services where some kind of automated filter is installed---it's tempting to automate the process, but false positives happen all the time.

I don't think there's a substitute for actual human moderators doing their job.

There's two problems with your solution.
The first problem is that it's really infeasible to apply human moderators for the job, as i said before, Triternion, even if their game took off, are still a relatively small studio, and it's not likely they'll earn near enough money to pay for all the moderators needed without going bankrupt/giving up their dev team/giving up any future projects/introducing a scummy business system like microtransactions.

The second problem is that human moderators will simply just have views of their own, and while saying something like "kill all jews" is going to be objectively racist to most people, something like "white people are opressed too" is only racist to a relatively small portion of the political spectrum, so A. Triternion would either experience Constant clashes between the moderators/community managers B. Triternion would need to actively discriminate against people who hold the "wrong" views, which would definitely decrease their popularity and is illegal in most countries. Believe what you want, but you have to accept the fact that there are other people in this world which think differently and will think differently no matter if you want them to or not, because they have reasons to, be they emotional or logical, and you won't change their views with bans and angry forum replies.

A filter which wouldn't ban people from the game but A. Flag them as inappropriate/put them in another chat B. Mute them from chat is fair, and if someone's being an asshole without using the mean words, you can just votekick, its just up to Triternion to make the votekick a bit more visible and feasible, maybe by pausing the game for a few seconds so people get to think about the situation a bit more, or making it just more visible/loud and stay for a few minutes so people dont get caught for a few seconds in the midst of battle without knowing the context or anything

And yes, a filter system does bring false positives, and yes, it's not perfect and definitely has it's problems. But, a moderator system would arguably have even more problems or be innefective at all and it would be too expensive. Voluntary moderation would be a shitshow too, if you look at this forum lmao.

71 83
  • 26 Jun '19
 50Caliber

@ToLazy4Name said:
No you can't be racist to white people

Ya there not human dontcha know

2 0
  • 26 Jun '19
 R4mmR0d

I'm trying to report a player who posts racist/literally nazi crap constantly, but for some dumb reason I'm forbidden to comment in the Mordhau Discord. Where do I direct the report? I have screencaps and the guy's ID. he's been doing it for weeks and I keep running into him.

71 83
  • 26 Jun '19
 50Caliber

@R4mmR0d said:
I'm trying to report a player who posts racist/literally nazi crap constantly, but for some dumb reason I'm forbidden to comment in the Mordhau Discord. Where do I direct the report? I have screencaps and the guy's ID. he's been doing it for weeks and I keep running into him.

I would recommend you talk to one of the community managers or a mod

181 165
  • 1
  • 26 Jun '19
 Unlikely

@Vieloł:

There's two problems with your solution.
The first problem is that it's really infeasible to apply human moderators for the job, as i said before, Triternion, even if their game took off, are still a relatively small studio, and it's not likely they'll earn near enough money to pay for all the moderators needed without going bankrupt/giving up their dev team/giving up any future projects/introducing a scummy business system like microtransactions.

It would be labor intensive, I'll grant you that.

The second problem is that human moderators will simply just have views of their own, and while saying something like "kill all jews" is going to be objectively racist to most people, something like "white people are opressed too" is only racist to a relatively small portion of the political spectrum so A. Triternion would either experience Constant clashes between the moderators/community managers B. Triternion would need to actively discriminate against people who hold the "wrong" views, which would definitely decrease their popularity and is illegal in most countries.

You miss the central fact that this is a private forum, and Triternion has already decided that racism IS the wrong view, and they've made it against the rules. While I can't speak to the laws in most other countries, in the U.S. at least there is no legal remedy for people who got thrown off the forum for breaking the no-racism rule. It would be different if this were a public accomodation that discriminated on the basis of race or sex or national origin, for example.

Believe what you want, but you have to accept the fact that there are other people in this world which think differently and will think differently no matter if you want them to or not

I do accept that fact. Thankfully, though, there are limits on how people are allowed to express those different views in this private forum.

A filter which wouldn't ban people from the game but A. Flag them as inappropriate/put them in another chat B. Mute them from chat is fair, and if someone's being an asshole without using the mean words, you can just votekick, its just up to Triternion to make the votekick a bit more visible and feasible, maybe by pausing the game for a few seconds so people get to think about the situation a bit more, or making it just more visible/loud and stay for a few minutes so people dont get caught for a few seconds in the midst of battle without knowing the context or anything

I don't have a problem with votekicking someone for being an asshole, but here we are talking about an entirely different thing, for which temporary votekicking isn't a solution.

Voluntary moderation would be a shitshow too, if you look at this forum lmao.

I choose to believe I can still be pleasantly surprised.

[Edited my own typos]

16 23
  • 1
  • 26 Jun '19
 PPeebs

We must prevent toxicity in the game.
That means banning and censoring anyone who says mean words and disagrees with us.
They hurt my fee fees and those are the most important things in the world, and no matter how much I suck my thumb,
the hurt just doesn't go away.

Sincerely,
a leftard spaz

15 8
  • 26 Jun '19
 Vieloł

It would be labor intensive, I'll grant you that.

Well, more than labor, financially intensive, and you have to remember that a game is a product which is supposed to bring in revenue

You miss the central fact that this is a private forum, and Triternion has already decided that racism IS the wrong view, and they've made it against the rules. While I can't speak to the laws in most other countries, in the U.S. at least there is no legal remedy for people who got thrown off the forum for breaking the no-racism rule. It would be different if this were a public accomodation that discriminated on the basis of race or sex or national origin, for example.

And you're missing a few facts too;
Triternion isn't based in the US, it's based in Slovakia.
In most countries the private forum argument doesn't really apply here, since you can buy the game and register an account and participate in this without needing to be on a whitelist, it's private owned but not really private. And correct me if i'm wrong, most topics are also publically viewable

And overall, I think you missed my entire point with that, there are things that everyone can agree on that are racist (again, obvious example : "All people of X race deserve death"), but there are even more things that people will disagree on if they're racist or not, and then people will disagree if it's a joke or not, and then some people from the political extrema will say that "well maybe saying that for Y, Z and P race is pretty racist, but saying that for Q race? Not really racist at all". You have to keep in mind those moderators are people too, and they will have more or less balanced/agreeable views, and Triternion can't outright demote them cause most countries in the EU have worker-protection laws that protect you from being fired right off. Slovakia is in the EU. And if Triternion discriminated taking moderators for the job on the basis of political views, they would get tons of backlash and possible legal action aswell. And i'm not really pointing at throwing people off forums here, i'm pointing at throwing out moderators themselves. Of course a remedy comes to head, to avoid all this political drivel, to take the definitions of racism literally and technically, but then you have publications and dictionaries that define the word differently, and a good portion of politically engaged people which outright deny/ignore any definitions but their own. So there's no way to do this and avoid backlash, beyond the fact that it's just financially impossible.

I do accept that fact. Thankfully, though, there are limits on how people are allowed to express those different views in this private forum.

Again, shooting yourself a bit in the foot with the private forum argument. If this is a private forum, they can ban you for your views, they can ban anyone for anything or no reason at all. But you have to admit, that's not a great business practice, is it? Again, Even if this is a private forum, Triternion have to worry about their actions' impact on the playerbase, and parts of that playerbase will have views you dont like , and other parts will have views you really dont like, but they are as much of a paying customer as you, so they matter as much as you, again, as a paying customer and player. Just another argument against the whole private forum thing.

I don't have a problem with votekicking someone for being an asshole, but here we are talking about an entirely different thing, for which temporary votekicking isn't a solution.

Then don't ignore my entire points about chat bans/chat mutes/separate chats :)
Also just wanna let you know how this entire topic started : debate on votekicking. So that's also a problem that needs discussion.

63 43
  • 27 Jun '19
 Cadiz

Idk. Turn off chat then dunk on em?

123 40
  • 27 Jun '19
 CazzyVR

@Unlikely said:
@SWSeriousMike

I meant heat figuratively not literally. There is no logical connection between what I said and killing people.

Racist trolls aren't here to discuss logical connections. You are literally now arguing over whether you, @SWSeriousMike, are in favor of genocide, which is insane. This is how trolling works: derail the real discussion.

@2B:

But I think a Simple Solution to all the Toxic and Trolling on Mordhau is simple. A list of Banned words that can result in Temporary Bans

The problem with banning words is that context is ignored. Racist speech doesn't require any particular word to be racist. There are many examples here. A simplistic ban on certain words might even cause someone to be banned who is in fact objecting to the hate speech rather than promoting it. This happens regularly on services where some kind of automated filter is installed---it's tempting to automate the process, but false positives happen all the time.

I don't think there's a substitute for actual human moderators doing their job.

True, I didn't think about that side of it. Thanks for bringing it up and enlightening me, I have to agree now that Human Moderators are a good Solution.

181 165
  • 27 Jun '19
 Unlikely

@Vieloł:

Well, more than labor, financially intensive, and you have to remember that a game is a product which is supposed to bring in revenue

True, if we assume paid staff are doing the work. If the system were mine I might consider finding some volunteers to help.

Triternion isn't based in the US, it's based in Slovakia.

In fact I was aware of that.

And overall, I think you missed my entire point with that, there are things that everyone can agree on that are racist (again, obvious example : "All people of X race deserve death"), but there are even more things that people will disagree on if they're racist or not, and then people will disagree if it's a joke or not,

With a little education people can learn to recognize racism pretty easily.

and then some people from the political extrema will say that "well maybe saying that for Y, Z and P race is pretty racist, but saying that for Q race? Not really racist at all".

Nobody who wants to get rid of racism talks like that.

More to the point, if I were running a forum I would hire moderators to enforce my rules, not to agree with them. Doesn't matter what they believe, only what they do.

Of course a remedy comes to head, to avoid all this political drivel, to take the definitions of racism literally and technically, but then you have publications and dictionaries that define the word differently, and a good portion of politically engaged people which outright deny/ignore any definitions but their own.

Narrowly focusing on a dictionary definition would not solve the problem, because context matters.

So, at your suggestion, back to the original topic of votekicking: if you give players the power to kick other players, they're going to use it. Sometimes they will choose wisely and sometimes they will choose badly. We can nudge them in the direction of choosing wisely, perhaps by making them go on the record with a reason for proposing to kick someone, but only a cultural change will change the outcome in a big way.

15 8
  • 27 Jun '19
 Vieloł

True, if we assume paid staff are doing the work. If the system were mine I might consider finding some volunteers to help.

Well yes, volunteers are the only really applicable option for human moderation, i'm quite skeptical of that though, but we can only find out how it would work in action.

With a little education people can learn to recognize racism pretty easily.

Again, dodging the entire sense of my point, i didn't mean recognizing racism via education, but as a result of different views, and you can't say that educating people will immediately change their views, especially if the educators are politically active. There are points that will be considered racist by some people and by some it won't, and that's what would create clashes. No human being can be fully objective.

Nobody who wants to get rid of racism talks like that.

And once more, completely misinterpreting what i meant and simplifying the entire situation. Racism is different to different people. There are people who will genuinely believe things like that, and unless you kick some people out of the job based on views, you can't stop people who believe things like that or simillar from getting into the moderation, especially a voluntary moderation system.

More to the point, if I were running a forum I would hire moderators to enforce my rules, not to agree with them. Doesn't matter what they believe, only what they do.

There we go. Finally something that relates to anything i said. Yes, that's true, you hire moderators to enforce the rules. Yes, it doesn't matter what they believe in the end, only what they do. But don't you think, that with relatively vague rules like "No racism", sometimes the things that people believe will affect the things they do? There's a reason why the criminal codex of every country isn't a few pages long, but a few hundred pages long. But even with those codexes, Judges still let their views get into the final judgement quite often.

Narrowly focusing on a dictionary definition would not solve the problem, because context matters.

That just furthers my point lol

So, at your suggestion, back to the original topic of votekicking: if you give players the power to kick other players, they're going to use it. Sometimes they will choose wisely and sometimes they will choose badly. We can nudge them in the direction of choosing wisely, perhaps by making them go on the record with a reason for proposing to kick someone, but only a cultural change will change the outcome in a big way.

That's not even the problem at hand though. The problem is, with mordhau being a fast paced game when in the midst of battle you really don't have time/attention to spare to look through the chat and see what the offender did and judge for yourself. The votekick window only stays for about half a minute, and is pretty easy to miss, especially if you're really focused. The solution here is pretty simple - make the window more visible by making it louder and stand out a bit more from the rest of UI, and make it stay for like 2-5 minutes so everyone gets to vote. No grand cultural change and brainwashing required! :) If most people choose "badly" then well, that's just the basis of a vote, isn't it. It doesn't have to go one person's way, but go with the general consensus of the players in the match. If you join a troll-accepting server, then it's just tough luck, or maybe the guy wasn't such an asshole after all. The only real problem that needs solving and we can solve is people not voting/voting randomly because they don't know the situation/can't know the situation.

181 165
  • 27 Jun '19
 Unlikely

The solution here is pretty simple - make the window more visible by making it louder and stand out a bit more from the rest of UI, and make it stay for like 2-5 minutes so everyone gets to vote.

Makes perfect sense to me.

16 23
  • 27 Jun '19
 PPeebs

I disagree with everything else Unlikely says, but there's nothing wrong with making the votekick window a bit clearer. They should begin by at least bringing it to the same standard as Chivalry; team damage %, idle time X, the vote is changeable & once it concludes it should tell both the servers players and the votekick target how many votes there were for yes / no. Right now all of that is missing.
This is typical to a lot of problems with Mordhau, issues which were resolved in Chiv literally 5+ years ago still exist in Mordhau despite all the benefits of hindsight. The server browser, for instance, which has no sorting mechanism, the recent tab still doesn't work at all, and is incapable of progressive updating, is substandard even compared to what was found in games in the early 2000s.
Same goes for the scoreboard, which somehow replicated the issue Chivalry had years ago with not displaying the bottom players when there's too many in the server. Mordhau seems to have thought about this because there's a scroll bar, but no way to actually scroll it down afaik.
After all of that is fixed, maybe then Dev's can consider Stalin- er, Unlikely's suggestions as to how to enforce complete fascist censorship over the player base to ensure their political views are upheld.

15 8
  • 27 Jun '19
 Vieloł

Finally something we can all agree on. Now we just need to find a way to pitch this idea over to the devs...
There's a feedback channel on their discord but god knows how often they look in there.

154 73
  • 28 Jun '19
 SerJaGGsaW

i sincerely hope the devs completely ignore you who promote censorship over mean words.
grow up, seriously.
and that's my final statement.
good luck jewing the devs into doing your bidding.

1745 1783
  • 28 Jun '19
 SWSeriousMike

But it's against the rules.

15 8
  • 1
  • 29 Jun '19
 Vieloł

Well, people voting themselves isn't really censorship, thats first, and as much as anyone wants to avoid censorship and just ignore the "snowflake crybabies" its still in Triternion's interest to keep those people playing, cause well, if they all quit, they're gonna drag some people with them, then those people will drag others with them and then you just end up playing against noone, and it's better to play against people you disagree with than thin air lmfao.

Both the "alt right fascist nazis" and "stupid communist censorship loving crybabies" are as much part of the playerbase and paying customers as anyone else, I think thats a thing lots of people have to realise here. that's why it's really worthless to bring politics into this discussion, and systems like votekicking make it so people can, again, decide for themselves, without crying out about moderators/chat filters being dishonest/biased/unfair. It's just that at this moment votekicking is poorly implemented, and doesn't really work, and that's an issue that needs fixing, cause as @PPeebs said, some of these things were already implemented in chivalry and working way better, and Triternion had hindsight to help them when creating those systems. The debate on eventual other systems can begin after votekicking gets sorted out.

Besides, as people point out, Triternion already put some rules into place, it's just that they aren't acting on them, and it's up to them if they do or if they get rid of the rules, or whatever else they might do. I'm going to still be against outright banning people or human moderation either way, but maybe some lighter systems could be put in place to please the part of the playerbase which wants the rules to be enforced, or just for the sake of showing that the rules aren't just on paper.

16 20
  • 29 Jun '19
 Mosoto

Seriously... We love this game. The trolls are going to ruin it. Votekicks which are temp where the troll just jumps into another game is NOT a fix.

The devs need to find a way to address the troll problem or it will kill the games pop.

172 85
  • 29 Jun '19
 Mackintoke

@Unlikely Well well well, what do we have here? Yet another SJW panzie. For shame.

@Brackish nibba plz, mind ur own business dem rowdy youngsters weren't messing with you, they were just shit talkin to each other.

172 85
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  • 29 Jun '19
 Mackintoke

@Mosoto said:
The devs need to find a way to address the troll problem or it will kill the games pop.

No, the devs need a way to perma ban you social minority SJWs from the forums to halt the polluting of the vast majority with your useless PC bitching. If a guy's team killing you then yeah that's bad. But people shit talking in a video game? GTFO weakling. You SJW morons are so fragile a slight breeze would knock you over.