Mordhau

Thrust drags look poor

12 17
  • 1
  • 21 Jun
 Likbjorn

Greetings, good sirs.

I should notice first, that I like the idea of accels and drags, so you not get confused by the thread title. Drags allow us to play with timings in addition to positioning, which makes the game more varied. However, sometimes drags (mostly thrust ones) look poor. I give you my own opinion which you can debate, but please provide good reasoning.

Problem
Let me show you one thrust attack at 1x and 0.1x speed (warning: ugly slow-mo sounds).
https://youtu.be/T5-h51IwDVI
Thrust drag at 1x

Thrust drag at 0.1x

Analysis
As you can see, technically it was a thrust, which was pointed up first and then aimed to the head. The hit was made long after force was applied to this thrust, the tip stopped moving along pole axis and just changed the angle. It rather looks like a strike with a flat side of the poleaxe's head, like it was performed with a shovel (credits to the clip's autor for this phrase), and yet it makes 50 damage.

I showed one of the weirdest looking attack, but the main trouble is the same for thrusts and strikes. They are still in release phase when their velocity is too low (neglecting dragging/footworking), making full damage. I always get confused, when I receive damage from motionless weapon. It doesn' look cool at all.

Solution
I have several different suggestions to reduce such poor looking situations. These can be combined or used separately, still making overall situation better.

  • First, release phase timing and actual animation can be adjusted in order to not deal damage, when thrust is over.
  • Second, turn cap for thrust attacks should be significantly lowered during release phase. It's still ok to have decent turn cap on windup.
  • Last, the most sophisticated solution, is to actually calculate velocity of weapon relative to target, and significantly reduce damage if velocity is lower than reasonable threashold.

Sure, you can counter such drags, you can read them once you gitgut and avoid damage. But you can gitgut in everything, it's about time. The question is "Will it look cool?".

What's your opinion on current state of drags in Mordhau?
524 570
  • 21 Jun
 Deadmode

Stab drags are intended but broken, imo. I was fighting a spear user yesterday whereby the damage received way a serious amount of time later than the 'tip' had struck. This makes any parrying a guessing game.

Personally I don't think a stab should be able to be dragged in the current way and I like the idea of suggestions 1 & 2 combined.

Regarding dragging as a whole; I love the mechanic but hate the effect on animations. I have mentioned before that they appear very jerky, especially with extreme drags whereby the weapon swing is a large movement. This jerky, low-fps representation of the dragged weapon ruins the experience. I hate seeing a frame of the incoming weapon right near my face, which I then parry/chamber, but the weapon actually hits milliseconds after the animation showed it would land.

Parrying early because you anticipated an accel is one thing, but parrying early because an animation tricks you is another, imo.

Knight 477 920
  • 21 Jun
 wierHL

bumping for visibility
don't know enough about the game's drag technicalities to have a valid opinion

167 117

As much as i agree this is an important issue which needs attention from the devs, it needs to be addressed carefully.

One of the possible solutions without too much rework would be to reduce turncap of stabbing whilst in release as you said.

Another would be to increase the damage reduction and range of glancing blows slightly after windup, during release, but before the arm is fully extended, and also immediately after the arm is fully extended and all force is lost in a stab.

And what I think is a great idea that someone else suggested on the forums, altering the damage tracer so that it only draws damage from the very tip of the sword after a thrust is completed, in the middle of release but before recovery starts.

In any event, I think that there needs to be reduced damage after a thrust is completed (glancing blow), as all the force and energy is transferred when the arm is fully extended in thrust and the momentum stops.
Possibly an increased recovery period and reduced release period for stabs, or higher glancing blow damage reduction before and/or after a stab reaches full thrust and arm extension.

Changing the animations, as you suggested, may be difficult to implement. Maybe recovery animation can be changed slightly and increased in duration, whilsr also reducing stab release window after windup (Making stabs have shorter duration weapon tracers/shorter attacks).

185 205
  • 21 Jun
 Roag

I get the sentiment behind people not liking stab drags, however imo it boils down to:

Stab drags are good at one thing; countering chambers. You will rarely land stab drags on decent players unless they attempt to chamber. As someone who used stab drags pretty much every fight on Chivalry, I can safely say that they're allot less viable in mordhau. Does it look weird? Sure, but so do allot of other drags, stab drags contribute to an increased skill ceiling and anyone can pull them off, same with every other drag.

I think you're over thinking this, if you're fighting someone who can pull off good stab drags, just avoid chambering and you'll be fine.

524 570
  • 21 Jun
 Deadmode

@Roag Agree with you for the most part about higher-skilled players being thrown less by them, but they are too extreme in some cases. As mentioned, the drag of a spear stab is just plain broken to the point that the delay in being hit is in line with a dragged slash.

167 117

@Roag said:
I get the sentiment behind people not liking stab drags, however imo it boils down to:

Stab drags are good at one thing; countering chambers. You will rarely land stab drags on decent players unless they attempt to chamber. As someone who used stab drags pretty much every fight on Chivalry, I can safely say that they're allot less viable in mordhau. Does it look weird? Sure, but so do allot of other drags, stab drags contribute to an increased skill ceiling and anyone can pull them off, same with every other drag.

I think you're over thinking this, if you're fighting someone who can pull off good stab drags, just avoid chambering and you'll be fine.

This iznt about complaining about stabs because me or the op need to git gud or cause we're bad, it's addressing an issue which needs to be fixed as it affects muh realism.

1309 2875
  • 21 Jun
 Monsteri

Stab drags are necessary and should probably be buffed further. However, they need animation changes where every stab is not an insta-accel magic light switch and the release phase should properly correspond with the animation, so no floater poleaxe stabs.

27 5
  • 21 Jun
 Sarevok

I would opt for stab dragging/accel to be remove and just rely on a riposte giving the accel a stab needs.

Knight 7759 14276
  • 21 Jun
 ToLazy4Name

@Sarevok said:
I would opt for stab dragging/accel to be remove and just rely on a riposte giving the accel a stab needs.

How do you propose to do that lmao

This would also completely invalidate stab weapons, no one would use them because you would never hit anyone with decent footwork

4 3
  • 21 Jun
 Jinkduels

I agree with this. It makes sense for slashes to have drags and accels, but stabs should not be doing persistent damage after the actual thrust has ended and the weapon is static.

27 5
  • 1
  • 21 Jun
 Sarevok

-Active stab releases reduced slightly on the following weapons: Halberd, Spear, Billhook, Bardiche alt mode, Poleaxe, Eveningstar, Zweihander main mode.

-Spear main mode stab now deals 3 more damage to plate torso, but 3 less to plate head
SpearStab.PNG

-Spear alt mode stab damage vs plate helmet reduced to 45, reduced vs medium helmet to 65
-Spear alt mode stamina negation increased to 13!SpearStabAlt.PNG

I think just a slight increase to the Recovery Time on a Spear since it is the longest reaching weapon in the game is not uncalled for. I also don't really understand how a spear can be so potent vs plate.

777 1030

Stab drags need a buff badly.

Without the threat of a drag, there is literally zero skill ceiling above cambering all stabs at all times.

With highly precise drags the skill ceiling is raised offensively, as these drags take lots of practice and awareness, and defensively, because reading every frame of animation becomes super important.

don't get mad and try to dumb down the game.

27 5
  • 1
  • 21 Jun
 Sarevok

@smellycathawk said:
Stab drags need a buff badly.

Without the threat of a drag, there is literally zero skill ceiling above cambering all stabs at all times.

With highly precise drags the skill ceiling is raised offensively, as these drags take lots of practice and awareness, and defensively, because reading every frame of animation becomes super important.

don't get mad and try to dumb down the game.

I don't think anyone is wanting to dumb down the game. The problem is how can you drag a thrust away from your body that doesn't defy the laws of physics and not look absolutely ridiculous? With how a drag works now with a stab attack it may as well be a downward swing. You stab away from the target and pull it in towards the target at the last second and somehow if it manages to hit. Do you count it as a stab attack or more of a swing attack? I guess that just depends on where and when the weapon lands. If you weapon lines up with the target prior to reaching the target then that's a good drag stab. If it passes the target but you pull the attack in does it count as a miss or a swing attack?

Chambering, riposte, feint, morph and straight up dodging the attack would be your skill ceiling. Based on the video how does stabbing into the sky then dragging your crosshair down to the target considered "skill" ?

Duke 552 937
  • 1
  • 21 Jun
 Goatie

Only stab drags I hate is the spears alt mode one that goes over your head much like this one. Almost impossible to chamber because of its speed and it animates like a normal stab since its so fast and you don't need to footwork like a z stab.

403 601
  • 2
  • 22 Jun
 smug

This game and Chiv’s base combat is so limited that if you removed the dumb looking stuff it’s a clown game. It would still be playable as a team game but duelfags wouldnt exist because getting around parries = impossible. You will never get people to admit something pertaining to swing manip is dumb no matter how stupid it looks or illogical it is. You cant fault them for it because that’s just them squeezing depth out of a half full waterbottle. However he is right that stabs are weak due to chambering, but its also probably a good thing based on how unreadable a proper stab feint is making it just always a good idea to soft read any offense starting from a stab windup with a chamber

12 17
  • 22 Jun
 Likbjorn

I see many comments are about that we need those stab drags to make the game challenging. Surely we need option to control timings on attacks.
However drags now look counter-intuative. It simply doesn't feel right when you hit or get hit with such drag. Animations should look realistic so player can easily understend when he can be hit, basing on realistic movements.

403 601
  • 1
  • 22 Jun
 smug

@Likbjorn said:
I see many comments are about that we need those stab drags to make the game challenging. Surely we need option to control timings on attacks.
However drags now look counter-intuative. It simply doesn't feel right when you hit or get hit with such drag. Animations should look realistic so player can easily understend when he can be hit, basing on realistic movements.

the devs have had the entirety of their dev time to make drags more readable, and still didnt manage it completely. its impossible to make drags not look retarded in the context of a medieval game. Why do you think the most skilled drags which also look the most retarded were no where in the gameplay trailer? Surely the devs would want to showcase top level gameplay right.