Mordhau

Rapier is bad at dueling but really annoying in team fights.

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There's a reason we don't see rapiers in the duelyard but we see them often in FL and paired with a shield. Can we get rapier to be a valid dueling option but a poor FL option and, more specifically, a bad shield option? Rapier should be very good at dueling in the right hands.

I think it should gain really high stamina negation and lose the ability to flinch.

Not flinching makes it less annoying in team fights/ganks and raises the skill ceiling of the weapon. Who doesn't want to play with a hunting knife that's actually viable? A high stamina negation makes it viable at high level duels where it would get out stammed and gives it more stamina for feint/morphing and parry-after-hit since it doesn't flinch.

Rapier/kite builds look hideous on the battlefield and are only played by bad players... It would be refreshing to see it require more skill and become a viable weapon by duelists.

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I see rapiers in duels all the time

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The man in the video is just trashing on lesser players and being obnoxious to boot, I'm sure he could've done the same with long sword though it would've been far less obnoxious and would've required a bit more skill. If a player as good or better came along I'm sure he would've wished for a different weapon such as LS or BS.

You may see level 10s running rapier in duels just like they do in FL but you won't see top players fight each other with rapier. There's no way anyone can be satisfied with rapier's implementation. It needs a buff to be a real weapon but an actual buff would just make it more obnoxious.

Why shouldn't the weapon that in real life is great at dueling but requires the most skill be the exact opposite in Mordhau? Why should rapier be the designated noob weapon over any of the other actual weapons in the game?

27 5
  • 20 Jun
 Sarevok

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
There's a reason we don't see rapiers in the duelyard but we see them often in FL and paired with a shield. Can we get rapier to be a valid dueling option but a poor FL option and, more specifically, a bad shield option? Rapier should be very good at dueling in the right hands.

I think it should gain really high stamina negation and lose the ability to flinch.

Not flinching makes it less annoying in team fights/ganks and raises the skill ceiling of the weapon. Who doesn't want to play with a hunting knife that's actually viable? A high stamina negation makes it viable at high level duels where it would get out stammed and gives it more stamina for feint/morphing and parry-after-hit since it doesn't flinch.

Rapier/kite builds look hideous on the battlefield and are only played by bad players... It would be refreshing to see it require more skill and become a viable weapon by duelists.

Why are rapiers only for bad players? What makes any other weapon, like spear, only for bad players as well? Rapiers are fast and mainly used for thrusting attacks so going in to a fight with them you're going to be able to anticipate what they do. Chamber and counter them. Hell, I die to spear in group ganks more often than rapiers. You have to balance the weapon's speed and reach to their TTK (time to kill) their target. A slight nerf to rapier damage vs Heavy armor is all I would suggest. Medium and light armor would be the prime targets for rapier builds. It's these builds that typically use farther reaching weapons so a rapier user would still need to get close enough to attack putting themselves as risk.

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  • 20 Jun
 Sarevok

TLDR ~ rapier isn't supposed to be this ridiculous fast weapon because it still weighed a good amount in comparison to the arming sword, it could still slash decent but it never was expected to cleave a limb in half. It was more known for its thrust and reach. This would lead one to assume the thrust of the weapon is the deadliest part.

Now, the damage of the rapier's slash shown in the game stats looks fairly accurate. I would drop the slash damage on chest and legs on medium by about 10 points and 5 points on head. Change heavy helm slash dmg to 20. Rapier just lacked force behind the slash to inflict major damage.

The thrusting dmg table could use a tweak as well. The thrust damage against the heavy head needs to drop by 15 points, chest by 5 and the legs by 5. Piercing plate with a rapier wasn't efficient unless you stabbed in a fold or exposed place in comparison to splint or leather (studded otherwise).

The blade length of the weapon doesn't seem right as it should be closer to 40 inches vs what it is now at 35 inches (89cm). The rapier should probably Stop on Hit for the thrust portion but allow the slash to still work. The thrust release should probably be bumped to 375 or as high as 400 ms as your body doesn't carry as much force with a thrust as you would with a slash unless you're performing a full lunge. If that's the case the recovery from a thrust should be higher, at 750 or 800ms.

Youtube videos for more educated opinions expressed more clearly but not stated as facts.RapierSlash.pngRapierStab.png

219 200
  • 20 Jun
 recurf

What makes the rapier so bad in duels is that they are so predictable, the slash does so little damage to tier 3 armour that you can pretty much expect the guy to morph into a stab, and if you gamble and get hit by the slash it doesnt really punish anyway due to its low damage. The spears have this issue also, they are just so predictable in duels.

I agree in theory the rapier should be a top tier dueling weapon, maybe a unique feature could be to make the rapier chamber for free. I dont know if that would be over powered though

219 200
  • 20 Jun
 recurf

@Sarevok said:

There is 0 point trying to base any of the weapon stats in the game on real world usage.
In reality a longsword blade hitting plate armour would do literally nothing, but that wouldnt be good gameplay would it

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  • 20 Jun
 Sarevok

@recurf said:
What makes the rapier so bad in duels is that they are so predictable, the slash does so little damage to tier 3 armour that you can pretty much expect the guy to morph into a stab, and if you gamble and get hit by the slash it doesnt really punish anyway due to its low damage. The spears have this issue also, they are just so predictable in duels.

I agree in theory the rapier should be a top tier dueling weapon, maybe a unique feature could be to make the rapier chamber for free. I dont know if that would be over powered though

Chambering with a rapier that does not cost stamina would be very OP mainly due to the fact your highest damage comes from thrusts so you would assume most players would stab more often than slash. Most rapier players can chamber any weapon and go back in with another thrust to connect before the defender can attempt to chamber again. In most cases you want to chamber into either a parry/block to a riposte or hope the guy misses.

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Rapier is very predictable but it's very hard to see from behind a shield or in a group, hits fast and hits hard. The amount of red parries I get to such a predictable weapon is staggering. It's very good at ganks/team fights and it's the go-to for beginners because it's so easy to land hits with and a shield makes it easy to parry anything.

But it's also useless at serious dueling for stamina and predictability. It's hard to see from within a group/mob but in a duel you already know exactly what it's doing... and it will simply get stammed out if the defender reads/predicts enough and has something bigger.

I want rapier to be made into a viable dueling weapon and a poor FL choice. It should be totally flipped and redesigned.

219 200
  • 21 Jun
 recurf

I want rapier to be made into a viable dueling weapon and a poor FL choice. It should be totally flipped and redesigned.

ok but how

111 54
  • 21 Jun
 yvesgomes

If it didn't flinch, it would suck even more at duels, right?

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@yvesgomes said:
If it didn't flinch, it would suck even more at duels, right?

No, it would then suck at FL because the main kicker when getting ganked is getting constantly flinched by the rapier. The rapier without flinch would simply parry after a hit, much like the hunting knife, so it's not that big a deal if you're a good player. Yeah it would be hard for level 10s to pick it up but it's not viable as it currently stands anyways. If it had stamina negation too, then it would be viable... with no flinch then it gets alot of bonuses with one serious drawback.

Right now it's main draw back is stamina/predictability but these do not matter in teamplay, it's only a drawback in duels. Rapier should instead shine in dueling and fall short in team play.

No flinch can justify it's high damage+stamina negation+reach package, making it an awesome 4pt dueling weapon... if you're a good player.

Basically the weapon is no longer a crutch since it can't flinch. Realistic? No but it would be fun to have a weapon that was viable and didn't flinch AND it would certainly end it's reign as the go-to noob crutch in FL.

111 54
  • 21 Jun
 yvesgomes

So, in a duel, you'd have to constantly hit people and parry immediately to not get traded?

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  • 21 Jun
 Quxudais

It's just a symptom of the games combat being so frustratingly half baked. There's no penalty, of any real note, for spamming stabs (or any other attack) and constantly having a giant chunk of steel like a zwei or a heavy shield deflect it. You aren't penalized with a small stun the way you were in Chiv if you slammed your fish knife into a giant tower shield. Hit boxes and hit registration are really iffy, you can side step a spear or rapier thrust and be staring at the back of the users elbow from almost behind him and still somehow get hit, you don't need to be anywhere close to as precise with your block or parries; As long as you are looking in the general direction of the enemy weapon you are likely to block it just fine. This means trying to go for different zones of the body from the front to get around blocks/parries (which is what a rapier should be great at) rather ineffective.

The rapiers main benefit is the point control the handle offers, which allows manipulation of where your thrust is going to land during an attacks arc where as something like a waraxe is pretty much committed to its one trajectory. But there is no reflection of this in Mordhau's combat system since a block will work just fine with no additional effort on the side of the defender whether the thrust stays true or veers off from the feet to the head. This also forces you to go for extremes like trying to get all the way behind someone, which is why everyone uses zweis/execs in FL incidentally as you can just run in circles spamming swings and the weapons reach is extreme enough to get far enough behind an enemy to not be blocked.

The only real way to change this would be to tweak more than just stats. Adding Locational damage to weapons for instance, so that hitting an enemy with the shaft/haft instead of the blade/point did heavily reduced damage based on armor type hit, would go far to improving fights against pole arms and indirectly benefit weapons like the rapier. Adding mobility penalties to constantly swinging huge long reach weapons would as well. Stamina should matter for more than just whether your next block disarms you; It should at minimum impact your movement speed, maybe even your swing times. Lastly you should be extremely heavily penalized if you are hit in any part of the body if you left it naked; Someone running around shirtless with no pants wildly swinging a maul should die pretty much instantly the moment virtually any weapon connects with them; Something that should happen rather quickly given the above mentioned changes to stamina and swing spams.

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@yvesgomes said:
So, in a duel, you'd have to constantly hit people and parry immediately to not get traded?

If you want, but how many rapier face stabs does it take to put down T3 helm? Also it opens the door to baiting trades and back stepping out of them or dodging them altogether. Rapier has very long reach so you may just bait whiffs/trades and punish them. You can also move into every swing and keep stabbing while your opponents swing keeps going the wrong way.

It makes the rapier a fun weapon and perfectly viable in the hands of a good player in the duelyard.

Duke 5502 13139
  • 22 Jun
 Jax — Community Manager

i like the idea of hitstop on rapier stab, could be cool, but the release on the stab needs to stay relatively short otherwise it will be a big floaty stab and feel terrible.