Mordhau

Remove morph-feints

Knight 7 6
  • 1 Jun
 MeanFoot

What's the point of them anyway, they just promote gambling.

Knight 7577 13875
138 218
  • 1 Jun
 DylanS_98

@MeanFoot said:
What's the point of them anyway, they just promote gambling.

After this I am completely convinced they need to be removed. Thank you for enlightening me.

/s

Knight 7 6
  • 2 Jun
 MeanFoot

Can't wait for competitive with morph-feint macros that can't be chambered or parried and it all comes down to gambling. What's the big deal with keeping them as is, do they increase the skill ceiling somehow?

777 1029

@MeanFoot said:
Can't wait for competitive with morph-feint, do they increase the skill ceiling somehow?

Yes

36 24

I am just a new member;
but this is the most stupid thread here thus far.

At least make a valid argument - but there is none except you`re bad?

Knight 99 263
 GAYFISH

While removing morph feint is a terrible idea, I think it'd be good if they had a slightly longer attack lockout. Probably with a longer lockout on failed parries so falling for morph feints is still punishable.

But currently, punishing morph feints can be so inconsistent because of how quick it is to queue up another attack.
For example, if you successfully read a morph and goto chamber the strike of a stab to strike morph feint but they follow up their morph feint with a stab there's a decent chance that their stab gamble will still beat your chamber attempt. That doesn't feel fair IMO.

Morph feints are one of the most effective offensive mechanics while simultaneously being low risk/high reward and that seems like an unhealthy balance.

210 197
  • 2 Jun
 recurf

@MoMoMonsterkill said:
I am just a new member;
but this is the most stupid thread here thus far.

At least make a valid argument - but there is none except you`re bad?

This is the most stupid comment I have seen

383 577
 smug

Mordhau/Chiv both have the issue of offense being so overpowered compared to defense. Morph feint just exacerbates the issue by giving attackers yet another mechanic, while defense only really has parry and all other forms are just active defense aka chambers/gambles. In my opinion having defense being so all or nothing, while offense can literally cancel windup to parry is kinda retarded even though I like the game. You have to acknowledge though that the ability to cancel windups prevents the game from being clunky and making the game non cancerous to play. To be honest I think you should get rid of windups altogether and change to something like M&B which only really has a release/active phase which gives the game more of a faster pace.

Can't really fix any of this without reworking the game entirely.

Knight 99 263
  • 2 Jun
 GAYFISH

@smug said:
Mordhau/Chiv both have the issue of offense being so overpowered compared to defense. Morph feint just exacerbates the issue by giving attackers yet another mechanic, while defense only really has parry and all other forms are just active defense aka chambers/gambles. In my opinion having defense being so all or nothing, while offense can literally cancel windup to parry is kinda retarded even though I like the game. You have to acknowledge though that the ability to cancel windups prevents the game from being clunky and making the game non cancerous to play. To be honest I think you should get rid of windups altogether and change to something like M&B which only really has a release/active phase which gives the game more of a faster pace.

Can't really fix any of this without reworking the game entirely.

Removing wind up is an even worse idea than removing morph feints.
The only thing preventing literally instant hits on every swing is the wind up.

383 577
 smug

@GAYFISH said:

@smug said:
Mordhau/Chiv both have the issue of offense being so overpowered compared to defense. Morph feint just exacerbates the issue by giving attackers yet another mechanic, while defense only really has parry and all other forms are just active defense aka chambers/gambles. In my opinion having defense being so all or nothing, while offense can literally cancel windup to parry is kinda retarded even though I like the game. You have to acknowledge though that the ability to cancel windups prevents the game from being clunky and making the game non cancerous to play. To be honest I think you should get rid of windups altogether and change to something like M&B which only really has a release/active phase which gives the game more of a faster pace.

Can't really fix any of this without reworking the game entirely.

Removing wind up is an even worse idea than removing morph feints.
The only thing preventing literally instant hits on every swing is the wind up.

Yeah which is why at the bottom I said they would have to rework the game entirely. Instant hits would be fixed by implementing the M&B solution of sweet spots aka making face hug attacks do little damage.

Consequently when you remove windups, the visual queue for the defender as to what attack would be coming would be the stance your character takes. Think KC:D for how it would work in first person, M&B for third person. Mixups become less timing based and more akin to high/low mixups in fighting games. This flows a lot better than waiting for a 500ms windup, where you're basically winding your watch waiting to parry etc.

Knight 99 263
  • 2 Jun
 GAYFISH

@smug said:

@GAYFISH said:

@smug said:
Mordhau/Chiv both have the issue of offense being so overpowered compared to defense. Morph feint just exacerbates the issue by giving attackers yet another mechanic, while defense only really has parry and all other forms are just active defense aka chambers/gambles. In my opinion having defense being so all or nothing, while offense can literally cancel windup to parry is kinda retarded even though I like the game. You have to acknowledge though that the ability to cancel windups prevents the game from being clunky and making the game non cancerous to play. To be honest I think you should get rid of windups altogether and change to something like M&B which only really has a release/active phase which gives the game more of a faster pace.

Can't really fix any of this without reworking the game entirely.

Removing wind up is an even worse idea than removing morph feints.
The only thing preventing literally instant hits on every swing is the wind up.

Yeah which is why at the bottom I said they would have to rework the game entirely. Instant hits would be fixed by implementing the M&B solution of sweet spots aka making face hug attacks do little damage.

The sweet spot system is an absolutely terrible system for games like this. Chivalry Deadliest Warrior tried it and all it did was make gameplay incredibly inconsistent and made stabs basically the only attack you could reliably use.

It just doesn't work in a game that has real time swing manipulation via mouse movements.

24 18

offense SHOULD be much stronger than defense. being on the defense should feel bad, and your goal should always be to be finding ways to regain control of the fight and be on the offense, and when you're on the offense, working to stay on the offense and keep your opponent scared. why should defense be strong? why should you be rewarded with safety if you failed to take the initiative or lost control of the fight as soon as you found an opening but failed to properly capitalize? when defense is as strong as or stronger than offense, games become a staring contest because nobody wants to commit to aggressive options.

in fencing, the equivalent of morph feints is marching your opponent down, repeatedly changing lines and showing an intent to attack. my coach used to call this "running at your opponent with your elbow" (because oftentimes, people will repeatedly do high coupes with their blade pointed upwards,) and what my coach told us to do in situations like this was simply stop thrust your opponent. essentially what you would call a gamble, except it isn't really even much of a gamble because you can cancel the startup of your stop thrust with a parry if you see your opponent actually commit, which is also what you would do in fencing. the idea of using a stop thrust is that your opponent sees that you are trying to land a counterattack and think "oh, I have to commit to my attack now, otherwise I'm getting stabbed," and that gives you the option of abandoning your stop thrust to just parry their attack or retreat out of distance to make them fall short instead. essentially, you can use a fake stop thrust (or gamble) to force your opponent to commit.

Knight 7577 13875

If you want a game with a defensive meta, go play For Honor lmao

383 577
 smug

@nf_straydog said:
offense SHOULD be much stronger than defense. being on the defense should feel bad, and your goal should always be to be finding ways to regain control of the fight and be on the offense, and when you're on the offense, working to stay on the offense and keep your opponent scared. why should defense be strong? why should you be rewarded with safety if you failed to take the initiative or lost control of the fight as soon as you found an opening but failed to properly capitalize? when defense is as strong as or stronger than offense, games become a staring contest because nobody wants to commit to aggressive options.

in fencing, the equivalent of morph feints is marching your opponent down, repeatedly changing lines and showing an intent to attack. my coach used to call this "running at your opponent with your elbow" (because oftentimes, people will repeatedly do high coupes with their blade pointed upwards,) and what my coach told us to do in situations like this was simply stop thrust your opponent. essentially what you would call a gamble, except it isn't really even much of a gamble because you can cancel the startup of your stop thrust with a parry if you see your opponent actually commit, which is also what you would do in fencing. the idea of using a stop thrust is that your opponent sees that you are trying to land a counterattack and think "oh, I have to commit to my attack now, otherwise I'm getting stabbed," and that gives you the option of abandoning your stop thrust to just parry their attack or retreat out of distance to make them fall short instead. essentially, you can use a fake stop thrust (or gamble) to force your opponent to commit.

I never said defense should be stronger than offense. But there exists a balance that should be attained. In an ideal world offense will always be stronger than defense, and having stronger defensive options should allow you to have even more crazy offensive mechanics. The problem with Mordhau/Chiv is that they didn't even really try with defense. 1v1s in this game are boring until you duel the top 1% because mindgames don't even begin to exist up until that point. when people fall for simple body feints, you are literally playing hot hands and nothing more. In other fighting games this isn't the case because defense isn't so shit, I can still steamroll intermediate players, but I atleast have to actually play the actual game. I don't have to worry about conditioning my opponent 7 out of 10 times in Mordhau, because they fall for the same janky animation body feint almost every time. Comparisons to real life fencing/hema don't do us any good when this is a videogame in which the options you have are in some ways more limited, and in other cases unlimited because you don't have to worry about being balanced when striking etc.

Defense not being all or nothing doesn't mean that defense is as strong as offense, because if the goal of the game is to beat your opponent you aren't going to do that blocking 10 strikes in a row without attacking. Especially in this game where blocked attacks literally cost nothing for the attacker thus preventing any turtling tactics from being strong in the first place. In a fighting game where you have held blocks most games aren't OP in favor of defense, look at DBFZ where blocking is a simple action of holding downback/back, but offense there was oppressive due to the speed of the game. For Honor being defense favored is because like Mordhau/Chiv the weapons have enormous windup times of over 300 ms, which isn't hard to react to if you aren't a retard. I don't fence or do HEMA, but I imagine that most real life strikes don't have someone holding their weapon in a windup state for nearly that long. In a sense the turtle pacing of Mordhau/Chiv outside of acceled strikes and ripostes make it necessary to have these weird mechanics, because without them defense indeed would be truly too strong.

Knight 99 263
 GAYFISH

@nf_straydog said:
offense SHOULD be much stronger than defense. being on the defense should feel bad, and your goal should always be to be finding ways to regain control of the fight and be on the offense, and when you're on the offense, working to stay on the offense and keep your opponent scared. why should defense be strong? why should you be rewarded with safety if you failed to take the initiative or lost control of the fight as soon as you found an opening but failed to properly capitalize? when defense is as strong as or stronger than offense, games become a staring contest because nobody wants to commit to aggressive options.

in fencing, the equivalent of morph feints is marching your opponent down, repeatedly changing lines and showing an intent to attack. my coach used to call this "running at your opponent with your elbow" (because oftentimes, people will repeatedly do high coupes with their blade pointed upwards,) and what my coach told us to do in situations like this was simply stop thrust your opponent. essentially what you would call a gamble, except it isn't really even much of a gamble because you can cancel the startup of your stop thrust with a parry if you see your opponent actually commit, which is also what you would do in fencing. the idea of using a stop thrust is that your opponent sees that you are trying to land a counterattack and think "oh, I have to commit to my attack now, otherwise I'm getting stabbed," and that gives you the option of abandoning your stop thrust to just parry their attack or retreat out of distance to make them fall short instead. essentially, you can use a fake stop thrust (or gamble) to force your opponent to commit.

IRL fencing has nothing whatsoever to do with this game's balancing.
You also misinterpreted my entire complaint, I'm not complaining about people blindly stabbing into morph feints as a reaction because that's not a problem.
I'm complaining about how inconsistent punishing morph feints is because of how short the attack lockout is. And how even if you make the right read and correct chamber attempt you still might get beat by a hard gamble.
I also agree that defense should be more difficult than offense, that's why I said failed parries should have a longer lockout to compensate.

24 18

@smug, it sounds like your complaint is that the game doesn't have enough good players yet. I don't really feel like defense is in a terrible place. The defensive options seem pretty fine for dealing with offense. Most forms of offense are reactable, and things like morph-feint lose to kick. If you kick your opponent while they wave their sword at you (once is usually enough,) then they will stop going for fancy options and start going for regular drags/accels out of a desire to condition you to sit still. I don't really have a problem with this dynamic, it's present in every fighting game.

@GAYFISH I don't recall addressing anything you said or talking to you at all. I'm not sure how you think I misinterpreted your complaints, I didn't even read your complaints.

@both, the bit about IRL fencing was an anecdote, although IRL fencing and this game have plenty of similarities and similar principles, as do this game and fighting games, and fighting games and fencing. things like using fast options to beat options that require setup, conditioning your opponent to be passive, as well as elements of spacing and timing are universal to fighting games/1v1 games and sports like fencing. I used the anecdote about fencing as a comparison to show how faking the usage of fast options to force your opponent to commit instead of using slow/setup oriented options which are harder to properly defend against is consistent across various forms of combat game.

Knight 693 1581
 das

@OP: The point of morph feint is so that people who hurr durr me not read if enemy morphing, me chamber -> oops he morphed time to crutch one-click parry get punished. Otherwise, it's going to take centuries to outstam and kill every single low-mid level player who just found out what chambers do.

GAYFISH has the most reasonable suggestion. Again and again, parry recovery time has been nerfed. Double parries are indeed still a think if you try to completely reactively punish morph feints a lot of the times (morph feints tend to be flash feints, hence the quick queue to a new attack - but they're not as easy to read as standard flash feints cause of the morph).

I'm not sure I agree if it's NEEDED as much as he does though, I mean I do manage to punish morph feints with even a Zwei sort of often, as far as duels go that is. However, morph feint recovery nerf along with a parry recovery nerf might make pacing much better for teamfights and 1vX. I spam morph feints when supporting teammates in PUGs and it demolishes enemies as much as it does my stamina.

Knight 99 263
  • 3 Jun
 GAYFISH

@das said:
@OP: The point of morph feint is so that people who hurr durr me not read if enemy morphing, me chamber -> oops he morphed time to crutch one-click parry get punished. Otherwise, it's going to take centuries to outstam and kill every single low-mid level player who just found out what chambers do.

GAYFISH has the most reasonable suggestion. Again and again, parry recovery time has been nerfed. Double parries are indeed still a think if you try to completely reactively punish morph feints a lot of the times (morph feints tend to be flash feints, hence the quick queue to a new attack - but they're not as easy to read as standard flash feints cause of the morph).

I'm not sure I agree if it's NEEDED as much as he does though, I mean I do manage to punish morph feints with even a Zwei sort of often, as far as duels go that is. However, morph feint recovery nerf along with a parry recovery nerf might make pacing much better for teamfights and 1vX. I spam morph feints when supporting teammates in PUGs and it demolishes enemies as much as it does my stamina.

Yea you're probably right about it not being very important, I just think it would make the game feel more consistent. I could be dead wrong though

1083 6138
  • 3 Jun
 crushed — Art

@smug said:
Can't really fix any of this without reworking the game entirely.

There is nothing to fix, all of this is by design.

Obviously morph feint won't be removed. I am currently looking into lockout issues, although there is no real room for change here since double parries are already a bit too easy on the higher levels of the game against late feints