Mordhau

I play with bows and sometimes with shields I paid for the game too

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@Deadmode said:
Another thing to realise is that if archery was totally removed from the game, it wouldn't break of ruin the gameplay experience of the game at all. The core melee experience would still be as beautiful and I doubt melee players would miss it. It's only the people that bought a melee combat game to main a ranged class that seem to care.

As said it would make the game a lot more boring and less diversified, less multifaceted and would shorten the lifespan of the game.

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  • 18 May
 Deadmode

You're not wrong at all, but I (obviously) disagree with the severity of effect.

I'm not against ranged play at all and, in fact, I play ranged every now and then but also would LOVE to see ranged combat fleshed out more and used in a large-scale seige-type gamemode alongside more melee and seige equipment.

I would just like to see the quality of the melee experience preserved first and foremost.

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  • 18 May
 Bodkin

Others have spoken on shields plenty enough already.

I play a lot of archer and can tell you that archers are plenty powerful in this game, you just have to be practiced enough to be useful with it.

The only bow that is "weak" is Recurve but it is extremely quick to shoot and extremely powerful in quick and accurate hands. Recurve is actually the bow I use most.

Trust me man, archers are good you just need more practice

Also you can bring good shit with archer. Here is an example (AND this class still has huntsman)

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For the price of that War Axe (1 to 2htk any class) you could bring a arming sword and Kite Shield so I mean you can have good shit. Bringing good armor as an archer isnt very good for 2 reasons

1) archers have a small speed debuff so bringing lighter armor counteracts this somewhat.

2) Huntsman perk longbow and crossbow 1 shot every torso anyway, even heavy. So if youre fighting other archers the extra armor is just going to slow you down and make you easier to hit, along with the fact that the armor won't help much in melee when all you have is a dagger or shortsword.

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@Bodkin said:
Others have spoken on shields plenty enough already.

I play a lot of archer and can tell you that archers are plenty powerful in this game

No they are not.Name one other multiplayer game with bows in it where the bow class is so weak and has so many disadvantages at the same time. Just one?

In no other mp game do arrows fly that slow and pulling the bowstring takes over one second.Name one other game where you lose your bow and drop it to the ground when you get hit. Name one other game where the bows have random spread.

@Bodkin said:
you just have to be practiced enough to be useful with it.
Trust me man, archers are good you just need more practice

You really think you are the only one here good at playing sniper or bow classes, don't you? And all the other archer player in this forum complaining about how badly the bow weapons are implemented in this game,are just not skilled enough to see how superior this bow is to bows in other video games.

You go and have fun "practicing" hitting moving targets at a range of 30 meter and above with arrow travel times of 3 and more seconds.Have fun practicing getting good at rng in the arrow roulette.

@Bodkin said:
Also you can bring good shit with archer. Here is an example (AND this class still has huntsman)

Not if you buy the longbow for 11 points.

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@Zherot said:
I have been noticing that in this game there is a clear bias towards 2 handed weapons users

I feel like I'm back in Dark Souls 3 at this point

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  • 18 May
 Deadmode

@BudSpencer_vs_TheHound said:
No they are not.Name one other multiplayer game with bows in it where the bow class is so weak and has so many disadvantages at the same time. Just one?

In no other mp game do arrows fly that slow and pulling the bowstring takes over one second.Name one other game where you lose your bow and drop it to the ground when you get hit. Name one other game where the bows have random spread.

Maybe the reason for all those things is because THIS GAME IS ABOUT MELEE FIRST AND FOREMOST. Those nerfs to the ranged classes are to keep the balance in favour of melee weapons.

How many times does this have to be told to you. It's a design choice, not a mistake. If you don't like it, that's your problem. Deal with it.

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Ranged weapons are balanced around their potential to affect gameplay overall. Not by how powerful and easy to use nubs think they should be, thank god.

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@BudSpencer_vs_TheHound said:

@Deadmode said:

@BudSpencer_vs_TheHound said:
No they are not.Name one other multiplayer game with bows in it where the bow class is so weak and has so many disadvantages at the same time. Just one?

In no other mp game do arrows fly that slow and pulling the bowstring takes over one second.Name one other game where you lose your bow and drop it to the ground when you get hit. Name one other game where the bows have random spread.

Maybe the reason for all those things is because THIS GAME IS ABOUT MELEE FIRST AND FOREMOST. Those nerfs to the ranged classes are to keep the balance in favour of melee weapons.

Bodkin didn't say:"THIS GAME IS ABOUT MELEE FIRST AND FOREMOST and therefore bows are bad", he said bows are powerfull in this game and the archer player complaining in this forum are just just not skillfull enough to probably handle them and i gave counterarguments to that.I replied to his argumentation, not yours.

@Deadmode said:
How many times does this have to be told to you. It's a design choice, not a mistake. If you don't like it, that's your problem. Deal with it.

We two just don't agree with each other, i don't know what else to tell you.And me and other bow player deal with it by giving feedback in this forum and making our voice be heard.

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  • 19 May
 Zherot

Archery is ridiculously underpowered in this game and kick buff on shields is broken.

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  • 19 May
 Deadmode

@Zherot said:
Archery is ridiculously underpowered in this game...

For a reason. It's to keep the focus on melee.

@Zherot said:
...and kick buff on shields is broken.

No it is not. Shield users need to stop hiding behind their crutch. If you just hold up your shield in the face of kicks then you deserve to lose out. Try and take the initiative and make your opponents block YOUR attacks rather than the other way around.

Shields are easier to block than a parry as the timing element is not a factor and the defensive hitbox is bigger too. Also, as someone stated elsewhere, it can also hide some attack animations. Having a 1h weapon and a shield is way superior than 1h and no shield, and also has many advantages over 2h (potential attack speed, increased defensive capabilities for example).

The problem is that people expect to just hold them up and be invincible behind them. That's just not the case and now you need to learn how to use he shield properly.

995 1049

I get the feeling you never even tried shields.

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@Deadmode said:

@Zherot said:
Archery is ridiculously underpowered in this game...

For a reason. It's to keep the focus on melee.

@Zherot said:
...and kick buff on shields is broken.

No it is not. Shield users need to stop hiding behind their crutch. If you just hold up your shield in the face of kicks then you deserve to lose out. Try and take the initiative and make your opponents block YOUR attacks rather than the other way around.

By seizing the initiative... you mean gamble in the face of better/multiple opponents? That's what I feel is my only option when faced by multiple competant opponents... or to put away the shield and become magically immune to kicks while parrying just as well.

Shields are easier to block than a parry as the timing element is not a factor and the defensive hitbox is bigger too. Also, as someone stated elsewhere, it can also hide some attack animations. Having a 1h weapon and a shield is way superior than 1h and no shield, and also has many advantages over 2h (potential attack speed, increased defensive capabilities for example).

Yes, unfortunately they didn't just make it easier than parrying to offset how difficult it already was to fight multiple opponents with a short 1h.... they made it too easy to block but made it super weak to what would be an inevitable circumstance when you have a weapon whose reach is actually shorter than kicks... when the balance should have been back to reading attacks rather than reading kicks. Shield should block kick in order to hold down objectives, fight multiple opponents off in close quarters and shield should be weak to leg/face hits again in exchange.

The problem is that people expect to just hold them up and be invincible behind them. That's just not the case and now you need to learn how to use he shield properly.

Why is predicting a kick considered "reading" a kick. If a slow weapon starts walking up to me and gives up its range advantage and gets in my gamble range... HE CAN ONLY BE TRYING TO KICK ME... and if he's not? Well my gamble stab will win anyways... and is it really a gamble if his only two options (kick and accel) simply won't beat my stab? In XvX he has no hope of kicking me before someone side pokes him lol And how else can he hit me except when Im attacking?

Kick stun must go. Shields must be weaker to leg hits and face stabs. Shield/Parry flinch must go. Shields and parries should block kicks like in the dev blogs. And shields should have slightly more stamina negation.

One hander is weaker than 2 handers, hence their cheap point costs. But spending points on a shield should put you on parr with the same cost 2h. You exchange parry and 2h's better reach/damage for a shield's better stamina value and slightly easier parry and passive arrow protection. It feels like shield is useless against archery and it's just an impediment in 1vX... but it's totally unfair to use in ganks and annoying in XvX.

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  • 19 May
 Deadmode

Firstly, I want to address what you can a slightly easier parry with a shield. Try parrying 3 or 4 incoming attacks in VERY quick succession (less than 1s) with parry alone - you have to be extremely good with your parry timing to deflect all attacks. If you miss a parry, or an opponent whiffs his attack (causing you to miss your parry), often that seals your fate right there. With a shield, you just hold RMB...

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with you that an equally-pointed loadout of shields vs 2h is unequal and inferior.

Regarding kicks; if you look at the kick animation, this isn't just a quick lash-out with a leg, it's a kick designed to have full force behind it. A sword parry should not block this and a a shield user would still be knocked heavily by one. The kick stun is a fine mechanic in both cases.

'Reading' a kick is just like chambering - you see the windup of a particular attack and you mirror it. If you predict a kick, that's different.
Also, an attacker's options aren't limited to kick or accel. Someone approaching isn't 'only trying to kick you'. I often lead with a morph jumping overhead that causes the shield user to raise it (to block a stab) but ends up taking damage over the shield or on his side. If we end up facehugging, I will chamber an attack and morph into a kick to use (body)feints to try and get around the sides. The only time I accel against a shield user is when riposting in the hope I can hit him before his shield is up. In most cases, a shield's gamble is just that. If you gamble stab as I approach then that's getting chamber-morphed to a kick or jumping overhead real quick.

In XvX I tend to only invite attacks from shield users to riposte/chamber from to switch, otherwise I won't get involved as I can have more effect against softer targets as the time-to-kill is quicker, usually. The only time I attack a shield user is in a switch itself, when they likely have their soft bits exposed to me as their attention is elsewhere. If the X is made up of more shields than not, then it's a trickier, for sure, and I usually back out.

A shield player 1vX should have the same chances as a 2h in the same situation; the strategies should be no different. You can still riposte, chamber, morph, feint and switch. I can't see how it's an impediment and can only see the superior blocking being an advantage. The 2h has it tougher as parrying multiple attacks is harder and a shield user is less affected by morphs and feints. Also, a shield's panic-block is way less of a blunder than a 2h panic-parry.

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I do not think you understood my previous post.. your actually proving my points. Leading with a morph is just so it looks like you have initiative and discourage a gamble. But I'm an experienced shield user and this patch is all about encouraging a shield user to gamble stab or gamble kick instead of block. So given the choice I will back step turtle to bait my opponent into thinking he holds all the cards. And then I will punish.

When you start your out of range morph I know exactly what it is and I know now is the time to face stab you or to kick you if you weren't smart enough to kick (or if you were too smart to kick lol.) You do not use a shield and I'm not sure how may hours you have so I forgive you for not understanding this comment and/or for misreading or misinterpreting my above comment.

Your final paragraph doesn't have experience behind it. Shield fights play out very differently than the imaginary scenario your simulating in your mind... Shield or no, you simply cannot do with one hander what you can do with two hander nearly as effectively. Play with shield and BS for a hundred hours against competent players and you'll see what I mean.

Shield is easier than parry for all the wrong reasons and it's also harder than parry for all the wrong reasons. Cheese vs Cheese. Shields are clunky to use and clunkier to fight against. Shield balance is incomplete until kick stun is swapped out for leg/face hits. Kicking is too powerful in Xv1 and just about useless in 1vX or XvX, no matter how much range it gets. Only the 1% of the 1% ever used kicks against multiple opponents during alpha, why would anyone below 1000 Mordhau hours use them effectively against a shield when out numbered.

995 1049

Please try them first before writing about them.
Show us how you read the kick animation of an opponent you can't see because your shield is in the way.
Show us how you 1v4 with a shield.

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Why should range players be forced to face hug a shield in order to side stab or kick stun? Why should slow or expensive weapons (often paired with weak light armor) be forced to enter gamble range whenever someone has a shield? Stamina is their only edge when dealing with a competent shield user... and you have to be pretty good to survive back stepping baits, read 1h morphs/feints and mitigate lightning fast gambles.

Shield balance is incomplete without leg hits or face hits. This patch can only be satisfactory to GS T3 cavemen.

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  • 19 May
 Deadmode

Just because I prefer 2h doesn't mean I haven't played shields, guys.

And @Lionheart Chevalier, if you read my morph then I always have ftp. But we can talk theoretical fight scenarios all day, it's actually a little off topic.

If your shield is in the way and you can't see a kick then you are blocking. If you are blocking because it's 1vX and you are blocking a separate attack, then you are in a bad position or holding RMB too long. I honestly can't see why a shield user cannot face 1vX and be just as pressing/aggressive as a 2h player. Only when a shield defaults to RMB holding will you get yourself in trouble.

But, I'll accept that my shield experience is less than my 2h, by quite a margin, and I'm happy to put my money where my mouth is, so I'll play tonight with various shield builds and see if I change my stance based on my experience.

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  • 19 May
 Rergato

The game honestly has no underpowered or overpowered things. I’m really not trying to fanboy here, I honestly think this is true. It truly is skill based.

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@Deadmode said:
Just because I prefer 2h doesn't mean I haven't played shields, guys.

And @Lionheart Chevalier, if you read my morph then I always have ftp. But we can talk theoretical fight scenarios all day, it's actually a little off topic.

If your shield is in the way and you can't see a kick then you are blocking. If you are blocking because it's 1vX and you are blocking a separate attack, then you are in a bad position or holding RMB too long. I honestly can't see why a shield user cannot face 1vX and be just as pressing/aggressive as a 2h player. Only when a shield defaults to RMB holding will you get yourself in trouble.

But, I'll accept that my shield experience is less than my 2h, by quite a margin, and I'm happy to put my money where my mouth is, so I'll play tonight with various shield builds and see if I change my stance based on my experience.

Glad to hear it, be bold and try fighting multiple players who are really good. Ofcourse, better players will win because they're simply better but you'll see how it's very different when using a shield over 2 hander... or even 1 hander without a shield.