Mordhau

I play with bows and sometimes with shields I paid for the game too

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@Eyedrops said:

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Kick stun hasn't solved anything.

I agree with everything else you said except this. I honestly think people just aren't kicking enough.

Idk how 1h shield performs in duels but I've heard it's not very good. My perspective is from playing lots of Frontline and TDM.
I assigned kick to one of my thumb mouse buttons and kick people often, shield or not. Shielders I find a lot easier to kick because while under pressure a lot of (average) players will turtle, leaving them stationary and ready to be kicked. Just look at a heater shield facing directly at you as your queue to kick. Of course it's not so simple as to work every single time, but it's effective.
Obviously kick stun means a guaranteed follow up stab which can be repeated locking the person in stun-stabs but I'm sure most people know that. Horde is good practice for kicking shielders and getting the stun-stab down.

Kicks alongside dragging, chambering, and putting a lot of pressure on shielders IMO is enough for shields to not be a problem. Idk how things are in tournaments or high level play, but from playing the game normally I think shields are fine. They do what they're supposed to do, add protection and prolong death, but they can be dealt with. Let's also add in the element of skill. Some players will lower their shield after a morph or feint allowing for a hit, some won't fall for it so easily. Some players will just face hug you with their shield up and allow for easy kicks, some will apply more pressure. Good players will often do well regardless of their build. It's not the build that's broken, some builds just require a different approach than others. Some builds are fucking annoying like rapier and shield, but fucking annoying doesn't mean broken, OP, needs fixing etc.

Attacking around the shields like Lionheart Chevalier suggested could be interesting. Having to kind of face towards the direction of the attack with shield up otherwise the attack could hit around the shield? That would be dope.

You're actually reinforcing my point. One hander was already weak to kicks now it's even weaker especially if a shield is involved. Even without kick stun, the stamina damage plus stamina disadvantage and short range inherant to most one handers makes kick their worst night mare.

With kick stun, shield has to be put away when fighting multiple opponents because while blocking one enemy, the other will kick you. This happens often in 1vX even by inferior players that I would be farming had I put away my shield. Now enemies have invisible tracers added to their kicks along with kick stun and shield has no stamina buff anyways...

But you still cannot kick in my shield if I'm "turtling" with a group and if I'm more aggressive I can bully you with the shield, blocking all your hits while my team mates and I spam you.. even if you are a far better player than me or my allies.

Kick stun made farming noobs easier, reinforces quick darty and long weapons (rapier, short spear and BS) when using shield, leaves shields over powered in ganks and also makes shields useless in 1vX. There is no brain power in current shields, they're totally and completely dependent on the scenario: you run or put away the shield when fighting greater numbers and you hold rmb at face hug when you're opponents are out numbers... throw in needle poking spam when you get in range at random points.

Shield currently, is not a one hander upgrade or even a soft archer counter... It's a mindless ganking tool as things currently stand and benefits the best when paired with mindless weapons such as rapier or short spear. It's actually a downgrade when fighting multiple opponents and a downgrade when charging an archer.

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  • 31 May
 Deadmode

The competent shield players I have encountered in duels play aggressively and use the shield like a parry without the timing necessity. They are hard to bet as the kick isn't as useful (as their shield isn't held up) and their aggressive 1h approach is usually fast and skilled. The bastard sword, messer and even arming sword can be deadly when people know how to fight.

People in duels who hold up the shield are dispatched in seconds.

XvX and Xv1 are where shields perform great as the hitstop effect severely handicaps attackers. However I disagree that they are underpowered in 1vX. I had no issues using a shield in 1vX. I just used it as described above; aggressively and as a better parry. The kick buff never really happens and it's just like fighting with a slightly slower targe. The only thing I can comment is that the freedom of blocking at any time (unlike a parry) was slightly negated by the smaller hitbox than a parry. In 1vX though, I found it easier to survive than with a 2h weapon and parry when surrounded.

I agree that this isn't how shields were used much IRL, but this is a game, and finding the balance between fun gameplay for all is paramount. If that means that holding a shield up is not the optimal way to play then so be it.

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Evere since the kick "buff" Ive played only shield and poleaxe. For spamming away at the hordes of level 10s it's great, but when I fight semi-good players I have to put away the shield or end up kick stunned... especially if one of my opponents has something spammy.

I do not think you've put in very many hours with shield yet, and/or haven't run into reasonably skilled opponents in 1vX. Because they WILL kick you in if they're ganking, especially if there's no where for you to run. Also, only short spear really has the length to prevent flanking in 1vX very well... Shouldn't the 1h upgrade help counter what was already 1hander's greatest enemies, kicks? Kicks were strong before kick stun and I find getting kicked pretty much ends any duel and some 1vX scenarios even when the shield is down.

I think parrying with shield is currently too easy, hitting around a shield too hard for beginners (and kicking is even harder for beginners) while the inevitability of kick stun leaves shields dead in the water at high level 1vX.

961 1590

THE SHIELD IS SUPPOSED TO BE SPAMMED AND HELD UP

But why is the shield so artificially powerful when spammed and held up? Why is kicking the most direct way to counter a shield?

Why discourage shield from being held up by trying to force kicks to work, when we can just make shield users read swing manipulation like we have in the past? Targe/buckler already have to read because they're timed parries. Heater/kite should then have to be accurate to location since they get infinite hold up to counter archery.

Shields should be a direct one hander upgrade, not a noob crutch or ganking cheese... or a magical weakness to kicks when getting ganked.

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@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Evere since the kick "buff" Ive played only shield and poleaxe

You might want to correct or clarify that.

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  • 31 May
 Eyedrops

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
THE SHIELD IS SUPPOSED TO BE SPAMMED AND HELD UP

But why is the shield so artificially powerful when spammed and held up? Why is kicking the most direct way to counter a shield?

Why discourage shield from being held up by trying to force kicks to work, when we can just make shield users read swing manipulation like we have in the past? Targe/buckler already have to read because they're timed parries. Heater/kite should then have to be accurate to location since they get infinite hold up to counter archery.

Shields should be a direct one hander upgrade, not a noob crutch or ganking cheese... or a magical weakness to kicks when getting ganked.

Shields ARE a 1h upgrade. Why else would people be so butthurt over shields? Half the games I play someone is bitching in the chat about a shielder, whether they use a rapier, short spear, bastard sword, doesn't matter. People are salty about shields because they don't approach them properly. Shields aren't OP, they can be dealt with. Kick them.

Sure shields don't do well in certain situations compared to 2h, whereas in other situations they outperform 2h. Why is that an issue? Is everything in the game supposed to be the same across the board, in all situations? We might as well all be using the same build then.

961 1590

@SWSeriousMike said:

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Evere since the kick "buff" Ive played only shield and poleaxe

You might want to correct or clarify that.

They nerfed the parry size of shields so I could use them without being a total piece of shit. I avoid the cheesier stuff generally.

If you're asking why buff is in quotations is because kick wasn't really buffed, and it's still useless when fighting multiple shields... though it's become apparent it has invisible tracers against shield only. Which exacerbates the futility of a shield (and thus 1hander) when fighting multiple opponents. No one wins with kick stun except for cavemen who main rapier/shield in a group and press stab to win or the BAxe overhead spamming knights who want to press kick to instantly beat low level shields.

Knight 890 2462
  • 31 May
 Pred

@Eyedrops said:
People are salty about shields because they don't approach them properly. Shields aren't OP, they can be dealt with. Kick them.

I have a keyboard with a working S button, how are you going to kick me?

961 1590

@Eyedrops said:

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
THE SHIELD IS SUPPOSED TO BE SPAMMED AND HELD UP

But why is the shield so artificially powerful when spammed and held up? Why is kicking the most direct way to counter a shield?

Why discourage shield from being held up by trying to force kicks to work, when we can just make shield users read swing manipulation like we have in the past? Targe/buckler already have to read because they're timed parries. Heater/kite should then have to be accurate to location since they get infinite hold up to counter archery.

Shields should be a direct one hander upgrade, not a noob crutch or ganking cheese... or a magical weakness to kicks when getting ganked.

Shields ARE a 1h upgrade. Why else would people be so butthurt over shields? Half the games I play someone is bitching in the chat about a shielder, whether they use a rapier, short spear, bastard sword, doesn't matter. People are salty about shields because they don't approach them properly. Shields aren't OP, they can be dealt with. Kick them.

Sure shields don't do well in certain situations compared to 2h, whereas in other situations they outperform 2h. Why is that an issue? Is everything in the game supposed to be the same across the board, in all situations? We might as well all be using the same build then.

BS may be cheesy in a duel but using it against multiple opponents or even in XvX with a shield isn't particularly brainless/spammy. I've been complimented several times in FL despite pairing it with a shield. It's speed lets me do crazy target switches, but ofcourse it's reach is usually my undoing since surrounding me or cornering me is easy and it doesn't have the reach to prevent the inevitable kick stun or spam stab decision good players will force upon me in a group.

"Kick them"

Just hit them?

Just win?

Shield is not an upgrade, good players going 1h usually leave any kind of shield at home. Shields aren't even solid arrow counters, theyve been designed as noob crutches and to be much less useful at high level play. Buckler is the only one hander upgrade, because it pretty much guarantees you'll win the stam game. Shields have a glass ceiling as far as high level play goes and a shield crutches defense while rapier/mace will crutch offense.... Lets put some skill into shields while letting shields go farther in the right hands.

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The only real problem is you can be put in a spot where you have a kick and an attack coming at you at the same time. But for now the best solution is positioning, don't get outnumbered and closed in on with a shield out. Put it on your back and when you outnumber the enemy, you can just get up in their face and hold your shield up. There is nothing they can do if you or a team mate is competent.

I donno if it's an ideal balance, but it isn't that bad. We are in a much better spot than we were at launch for sure.

961 1590

@smellycathawk said:
The only real problem is you can be put in a spot where you have a kick and an attack coming at you at the same time. But for now the best solution is positioning, don't get outnumbered and closed in on with a shield out. Put it on your back and when you outnumber the enemy, you can just get up in their face and hold your shield up. There is nothing they can do if you or a team mate is competent.

I donno if it's an ideal balance, but it isn't that bad. We are in a much better spot than we were at launch for sure.

Yeah just run away or dump the shield when fighting multiple people lol git gud right?

You're right, ompared to launch, shields are alot better. But compared to alpha patch 14/15 shields are in a worse spot for both 2h elitest and shield noobs.

777 1022

just don't use it when you're outnumbered cause it's shit for that.
It makes up for it by completely shutting down the 1 in a 1vx

"dur dur git gud" don't ignore my point bitch

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  • 6
  • 31 May
 smug

@Rergato said:
The game honestly has no underpowered or overpowered things. I’m really not trying to fanboy here, I honestly think this is true. It truly is skill based.

How can you actually believe this? The game is literally designed around a specific playstyle, which is fun so I'm not complaining, however there are aspects of the game that are underpowered as a direct consequence of this. Shields and bows both suffer from the mentality that they detract from the 2h meta. In fact it is due to this enforced meta that the game is even skill based. If you made shields viable the game would become a literal snooze fest because Mordhau/Chiv are both designed around the timed parry mechanic. If you made bows too strong then the game in Skirmish would literally be who has the better archer, much like it was in the earliest days of comp chiv.

If the Mordhau devs had the choice to only implement meta weapons they would, but certain things were simply added to the game solely to cater to plebs. The problem is the devs never intend them to ever be viable choices in higher level play.

The sad truth is the devs spent almost 2 years of development time likely finetuning the game in SPECIFIC scenarios such as dueling or small scale skirmish. They never properly tested frontline at a mass scale, and they most likely never thought about how to make shields viable without being cancerous, and why would they considering most of the dev team were comp chiv players who wouldnt DARE pick up a shield in the first place.

961 1590

@smellycathawk said:
just don't use it when you're outnumbered cause it's shit for that.
It makes up for it by completely shutting down the 1 in a 1vx

"dur dur git gud" don't ignore my point bitch

Exactly, thankyou. Its overpowered in a gank and underpowered in 1vX and all for the wrong reasons.

It needs to have to read incoming attacks much like parry while still being an upgrade fighting multiple opponents and a direct counter to archers. It shouldn't matter how many people you're fighting, it should ALWAYS be an upgrade while still being fair. It should be a tool not a noob crutch to be hated by everyone.