Mordhau

I fight in steel for real. Here's my take on where the game is at.

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@ǀǁǂÐƦ₳ƓƟƝƁƟƦƝǂǁǀ said:

@Thorun said:
I am a woman who fights MEN. So I'm going to put something to rest, here and now - it matters in a grapple, a feature this game doesn't have. If you want to bitch and whine and moan "But mah medieval experience!", that's the truth of it.

Let's get the facts straight. You practice a martial art with men, in a safe, cozy environment. It probably gets your addrenaline pumping nicely, has the feel of daunting danger, and there could even be injuries. But if you were injured, you'd be rushed to the emergency room with a party of worried co-practicioners. Tell that you "fight men" after you've fought one in a life-and-death situation. I take the liberty of assuming that you have not, one time, and even less on regular basis. You practice with men, you perhaps spar with men, or you might compete with men if things are going really wild. Let's leave fighting to the fantasy, unless you actually do it.

I mean, we can't expect the OP to have ACTUALLY fought in ACTUAL life or death medieval battles XD Unless he found himself in an unfriendly place in the middle east, and was forced to fight his way out with a sword.

Knight 334 777
Knight 39 51
  • 12 May
 Josh

I think the first paragraph of your post is a good summary, where you seem to want a game which has a different implementation of medievel combat. Like how people prefer different shooter franchises of CoD vs Battlefield etc, you would probably prefer a completely different medievel franchise, unfortunately your options are pretty limited at the moment and there are plenty of us who enjoy the current way it's done.

With any luck, a bunch of your suggestions will be doable with modding later, then you can at least experiment with tweaks like increasing spear thrust speed and overhauling damage types. I do look forward to what combat system changes people come up with if/when we get the tools.

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@Thorun

And your take on archers is?

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  • 13 May
 Beffagorn

Do western masters of the blade also wear black trench coats and fedoras?

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  • 13 May
 Zherot

@Thorun said:
Before anything, I want you to understand, this is from the perspective of somebody who wants a good medieval game first, rather than a good game that's medieval. There are sensible concessions that need to be made for it to be enjoyable, but they're fewer than most folks tend to think.

Armor
There's some glaringly wrong stuff, like having a Coat of Plates sit in the Light category - it's the same stuff as Brigandine, in reality. Technically better, since the main differential is that brig gets it's name from brigands, who would salvage old armor to make cheap coats-of-plates. The plates within a CoP also ALWAYS overlap, whereis that's hit and miss with Brig. It's a tiny thing, but hey, we're here for the medieval, right?

I also want to briefly groan about the leather lamellar. That's mostly the realm of budget reenactors, typically under the flimsy pretense of being Varangian. That stuff likely didn't exist. But you know, they've got it over chain, so it's tolerable, even if dumb.

Mechanically speaking, I'm really disappointed with how armor is interacting with weapons. I'd really like to see medium armor (chain and above, basically) significantly dropping the output of blades, and heavier armors almost outright stopping it. I'd like to see heavy armor destroying the output of stabs, likewise. The result would be interactions that match up with reality, without complex formulae. It also gives better value and balance to a wide range of weapons, but that'll get talked about more in a bit.

Further, it's interacting really poorly with the chase mechanic. Being lightly armored doesn't mean you can outpace a more heavily armored opponent - and I say that as someone who enjoys medium to heavy kits. I like that the mechanic is there, but it currently means there's few disadvantages to heavier armor - it should be ensuring people in relatively the same kit or lighter can catch each other, not that heavily armored knights can sprint as long as they follow an archer.

Weapons
Essentially, they should be interacting with armor differently. The insane damage on the executioners sword is fine, providing it doesn't really work on plate or even chain. That basically holds for all blades, be they swords or broad-axes - they should be massively deadly, but have sharp falloff against armor. That fits them into a role - fast, deadly, but unless they can MORDHAU (lol), ultimately inflexible.

Stabbing should work well against anything but heavy armors (it's the best way through maille, trust me), which not only fits it into reality, but also a role - fast, moderately versatile, moderately deadly, but with it's predictability and ease of blocking also easy enough to counter.

Which would then solve the issue of a lack of swing-through on blunt or swung, piercing weaponry (hammers, picks, maces flanged and any non-broad axe). Because then their effectiveness against heavy armor can be tuned up much higher. Yeah, mass weapons can be a little slower, yes, no swing-through limits what they can do against blocks of enemies, but it'll win you a fight versus someone in heavy armor.

In fact, it'd mean that these weapons are essentially keyed to the defensive capabilities of fighters - you cut up lightly armored foes, you stab moderately armored foes, and you bludgeon heavily armored foes. You can see that this is how the game is supposed to work, but it's just... Afraid to commit, it seems? Afraid to say make people struggle if they make poor choices.

I'd be pleased to see a bit of an uptick in speed, likewise. Obviously there still needs to be time to react, but I could kick the ass of every toon in this game with speed alone. It seems like the slow-ass swings are also there to facilitate look-dragging, which is okay to a degree. But I'd say that locking off turn arcs to about 45 degrees each side whilst committing to a blow would still allow for adjustment of swing timing, whilst better simulating footwork and allowing for a slightly faster pace of combat. This would also allow for aggressive footwork, baiting a shot, stepping outside of your opponents arc of attacks, and taking advantage. You know, like you do when you practice fighting as a martial art.

I'm DEEPLY disappointed in polearms, especially spears. The spear is my bread and butter in reality, and I can put a man twice my weight on his ass HARD with one. I do it regularly. First up, I would LOVE polearms to have a haft-check animation instead of a kick, and as such have a faster, better kick than other weapons. One you can adjust your aim better with.

Next, whilst I think the stab speed on most poles is reasonable, it needs to be MUCH faster on spears. That's the benefit of a spear, and why I choose to use one over a halberd - the lack of head-mass makes them incredibly agile weapons, and I do my work threading my spear through narrow gaps in defenses before fighters can even react.

They're also all rather janky in their lengths. I don't mind short-haft swung polearms as they stand, but I wouldn't mind long-haft options that sacrifice speed for more reach. Spears are within the realms of sanity, but also frequently came in longer lengths (and I'd love a few pike options. I don't need a 22 footer, but I wouldn't mind having a 12 footer available). Short spears, conversely, are too effectively long - the mid-grip you need to use really limits your usable length, and the rear portion of the haft fucks with your body-mechanics so you really struggle to generate anywhere near as much power. Truth be told, there's a reason you saw spear-and-shield fall-off after early antiquity. It's not good.

I also want to comment on the shortness of axes, as well. That's not universal by any stretch, and long-hafted axes are great for dropping over a shield, since the jutting blade let's you "wrap" around it into their shoulder. Likewise, it seems axe means "broad axe", and don't get me wrong, I love a nice broad axe. But give me same fast, narrow war-axes, with blades that border on pick-heads that drive through chain and penetrate deep rather than cut wide.

And for the love of sanity, nerf the hell out of a stab from an executioners sword. I shouldn't have to explain why.

Finally, let's talk about rapiers. They're 16th century weapons, so actually NOT medieval. They are hurting the experience of new, and lower skill players. They are adding nothing meaningful to the experience of veteran and moderate-to-higher skill players. If they don't make sense, hurt the aesthetic, and don't play well? ...Retire them.

As fair as aesthetics go, however? Pleased as punch.

Character options
I know it's been a source of drama thanks to the usual crowd, but straight up - the lack of women has been a bummer. I'm glad they're coming, but honestly it felt goddamn terrible and utterly alienating that the game was considered ready for release without them. I am a woman who fights. I am a woman who fights MEN. So I'm going to put something to rest, here and now - it matters in a grapple, a feature this game doesn't have. If you want to bitch and whine and moan "But mah medieval experience!", that's the truth of it.

Maps
This is about how it all fits together as a medieval game, and the team-balance issues are a dead horse.

The short of it is, they feel pretty good. A nice balance between tone and playability. However, one area where we're seeing a clash between the two is horses. Basically? These are not the environments to deploy cavalry, and it's playing weird because of it. As more maps become available, including (I hope) more field-battle style maps, I'd love to see horses retired from most of the current maps and placed into environments where they make more sense, and play better for people on both the giving and receiving end of them.

Overall
I think this is leagues ahead of Chivalry, and I'm having a great time. But, I suppose, I know what I want. And if I'm going to keep playing this once that other medieval game (that I won't name on another devs forum. Decorum) nerds like me are holding out for, I admit it'd take a move in this direction to retain me.

But hey, they got my money already, and I'm not unhappy for them to have it. So whatever complaints I have? Take 'em or leave 'em.

Oh, and don't agree? Cool, feel free to say. Leave your salt at the door though, because I'll just laugh at you for being a pissbaby. Because, and let me re-emphasize this; I do this for real, and I'm better than you.

You do what exactly? As far as i know medieval fights ended a long time ago so whatever you do now is not a real fight is just a "sport" at best, women don't fight men or compete with them in most sports for a reason, some people don't even enjoy or want to hurt female characters, there is little to no reason to add female characters, they don't add anything to the game.

I agree that this game is not realistic and some of your points are valid, bit i disagree on executioner sword not doing damage to chain mail, you seem to forget that not only cuts matter but also hits, and a HIT will hurt even on a chain mail, hell you even contradict yourself when you speak about how hammers and the like are the ones doing the most damage to plate.

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  • 13 May
 Mackintoke

@Speak said:

Another obvious immediate issue is that if you made the armors more dramatically effective, people would have to carry multiple weapons (or a poleaxe haha)

QUOTED FOR TRUTH, Poleaxe/hammer best weapon ever.

@Thorun FUck yah lets get some women player characters goin, I need groupies for my band.

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Look at all the white knights... sad virgins

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  • 13 May
 Mackintoke

@Deadmode said:
This thread is just more evidence that humans fucking suck...especially on the internet.

Humans here on the surface of planet earth are mostly glorified peasants. Their body's come from genetically engineered slave stock, their souls from stunted and traumatized origins. I decided to incarnate here as one just to see the shit show.... and I fucking love it. It's fucking awesome. The end of the world is around the corner. So pour yourself a nice alcoholic beverage my good sir, Nibiru is on it's way back thru our solar system, those Nibiruians love sniffing monoatomic gold, apparently it gets you really high. Can't wait to try some!

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@Mackintoke said:

@Deadmode said:
This thread is just more evidence that humans fucking suck...especially on the internet.

Humans here on the surface of planet earth are mostly glorified peasants. Their body's come from genetically engineered slave stock, their souls from stunted and traumatized origins. I decided to incarnate here as one just to see the shit show.... and I fucking love it. It's fucking awesome. The end of the world is around the corner. So pour yourself a nice alcoholic beverage my good sir, Nibiru is on it's way back thru our solar system, those Nibiruians love sniffing monoatomic gold, apparently it gets you really high. Can't wait to try some!

You had me until choosing incarnations, end of the world, alcohol and Niburu.... Other than that, cheers!

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Some players of the game are children. Can we also play as children for inclusion? Who cares if it's retarded to see children on a medival battlefield. This is a 2019 videogame. If you don't want children in this game you must be a racist.

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@smellycathawk said:
Some players of the game are children. Can we also play as children for inclusion? Who cares if it's retarded to see children on a medival battlefield. This is a 2019 videogame. If you don't want children in this game you must be a racist.

*ageist

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  • 13 May
 Mackintoke

Aye lad its all true, especially the part about the Nibiru king Anu fighting his brother Alalu, winning the fight but and then Alalu bites his dick off. So they make a giant face on Mars, to honor his dick.... also, jesus was a pimp, and he invented meth amphetamines. He would walk around town lookin for the hottest girl and then smile and wink at them saying "I like the cut of your jib." And thats why they call meth jib to this day. It's all in the bible bro.

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@Mackintoke said:
Aye lad its all true, especially the part about the Nibiru king Anu fighting his brother Alalu, winning the fight but and then Alalu bites his dick off. So they make a giant face on Mars, to honor his dick.... also, jesus was a pimp, and he invented meth amphetamines. He would walk around town lookin for the hottest girl and then smile and wink at them saying "I like the cut of your jib." And thats why they call meth jib to this day. It's all in the bible bro.

OK now it all makes sense, thanks for the enlightenment!
I can see Niburu coming with my 3rd eye, especially when I look East from my window. Mankind is doomed.

Knight 45 139
  • 13 May
 Wowzers

this thread is going places

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  • 13 May
 Mackintoke

Naw yo mankind ain't doomed. Whats gonna happen is all the old will be destroyed, blow up spectacularly. All of the old ways will die, to make room for something new. Something shiny. REJOICE FOR THE AGE OF THE FALL HAS BEGUN WE'LL DANCE AS THE PALACES BURN:

^ ^ ^ I play this song on the Lute. xD

Mercenary 2184 3898

Haven't read the whole post but most of it fall to the good old

muh realism

Knight 614 1111
  • 13 May
 Uncy

God damn the ego of this one

Empress 347 847
  • 13 May
 Soulcatcher

this thread makes me angry

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  • 13 May
 WaterFowl

I completely agree with OP's take on armor. Bladed weapons should not be able to 2 or even 3 hit a guy in full heavy armor. That shit needs to completely nullify slashes. Perhaps it should cost a lot more supply points.

imo the armor system is currently awful.