Mordhau

Nerf Cavalry!

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@Mackintoke said:

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
I hate parried flinches and blocks. They make perfect logical sense but for gameplay reasons I would love to see them go. How often have we been constantly getting hit by readable attacks but unable to parry in 1vX due to constantly being flinched? Fighting multiple opponents your bound to get side stabbed, why should 1 rapier side stab spell doom for an armored knight? I don't bother double parry because I know if it fails due to ping, timing or angling it sets me up to take more hits if fast weapons are thrown in.

Can we please get parries/blocks to stay up on hit?

What you're essentially asking for (which is a distinguishing feature in chivalry) are hit trades, which means, after the release phase of your swing, nothing can interrupt it.

It's a whole different meta game, the primary difference between this game and Chivalry.

Anyone who plays Chivalry Comp mod will definitely not want hit trade lol.

You did not read. There's a difference between flinched attacks and flinched parries. Getting shot from behind by an archer doesn't cancel your parry... and neither should melee pokes. You may be too new to understand these mechanics and their interactions.

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  • 19 May '19
 SWSeriousMike

@Mackintoke said:
What you're essentially asking for (which is a distinguishing feature in chivalry) are hit trades, which means, after the release phase of your swing, nothing can interrupt it.

It's a whole different meta game, the primary difference between this game and Chivalry.

Anyone who plays Chivalry Comp mod will definitely not want hit trade lol.

Hit trades are already in Mordhau and the comp scene doesn't seem to mind.

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  • 19 May '19
 yaBATMAN

At the moment, the horses in the game cause excessive damage. For example, to kill a soldier in 3 armor with a two-handed sword or a spear you need to strike 3 blows on the body. But the rider kills with one blow.
You can say "The speed of the horse increases the force of the strike", well, then I have a question - why does it work only in one direction? If a rider in motion kills a soldier with 1 strike, then the soldier must kill the rider with 1 strike. Also, the rider’s blows are not blocked and the soldier falls to the ground, then the rider must also fall to the ground when trying to make a block.
If the game physics takes into account the movement when causing damage, then it should work in both directions - one blow to the soldier against one blow to the rider. Or the damage of the rider should depend only on the characteristics of the weapon and to kill the soldier in 3 armor, you need to put 3 hits.

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  • 19 May '19
 yaBATMAN

At the moment, the horses in the game cause excessive damage. For example, to kill a soldier in 3 armor with a two-handed sword or a spear you need to strike 3 blows on the body. But the rider kills with one blow.
You can say "The speed of the horse increases the force of the strike", well, then I have a question - why does it work only in one direction? If a rider in motion kills a soldier with 1 strike, then the soldier must kill the rider with 1 strike. Also, the rider’s blows are not blocked and the soldier falls to the ground, then the rider must also fall to the ground when trying to make a block.
If the game physics takes into account the movement when causing damage, then it should work in both directions - one blow to the soldier against one blow to the rider. Or the damage of the rider should depend only on the characteristics of the weapon and to kill the soldier in 3 armor, you need to put 3 hits.

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  • 19 May '19
 Christian2222

Not a single post about catapults, or ballistas. Only bitching about the horse which is NOT that hard to deal with. Man I want to fight you fucks irl.

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  • 19 May '19
 yaBATMAN

@Christian2222 said:
Not a single post about catapults, or ballistas. Only bitching about the horse which is NOT that hard to deal with. Man I want to fight you fucks irl.

You're wrong, it's difficult to deal with. Because the force of the blow is excessively large and they kill a soldier with 3 armor with 1 strike

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  • 19 May '19
 SWSeriousMike

@Christian2222 said:
Man I want to fight you fucks irl.

Because of virtual horses? I thought bronies are expected to be chill.

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  • 19 May '19
 Atlas-D

@Ruby Rhoderick said:
Horses are quite a pain to deal with - I agree with you. Though if they really annoy you that much, you can equip the billhook which on a successful hit to the rider will yank them off their horse.

Yeah good luck hitting a moving rider with his knockback force field with that short ass billhook.

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  • 19 May '19
 Eclipse

The devs adjusted shield block area and tightened that up some (not quite enough yet, IMO - I've had shields block my stabs while facing the other way sometimes...), so I'm sure they are listening and will tweak horses and counters to horses soon enough. Until then, I say throw whatever ideas you have out there. There are no bad ideas when brainstorming.

I have been killed plenty of times by a well placed spear stab when charging someone down (note to self - if they have a spear, maybe don't charge at them when they are looking at you... The horse doesn't like being stabbed in the chest...), and I think they are probably OK, besides maybe tightening up flinch distance so stabs and strikes can more reliably hit the horse. And arrows could be faster, for sure. If that makes archers OP, well then we do have shields at our disposal to run them down. I think. Most of the problem is that the player base is new (like me) and doesn't usually counter things well. Nerfs shouldn't be considered if the problem is actually players just not using the tools at their disposal, or just simply not being good enough with the mechanics and timing yet.

Just my opinion, as a lowly newb with about 25 hours in the game (and loving it)

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  • 19 May '19
 Mackintoke

@SWSeriousMike said:

Hit trades are already in Mordhau and the comp scene doesn't seem to mind.

Oh shit, really? I didn't notice them. You're saying that after the windup, during release phase (after your character grunts) the swing won't get cancelled if my guy gets hit?

I just remember in Chivalry this was the case - if my pole hammer came a swinging and you stabbed me you'd get smashed still, but in this game that never happens, at least with me. I swear to god I thought this was just like comp mod, where they removed hit trades and it was a whole different meta.

I'm not a pro by any means. I just like hitting people in this game.

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  • 19 May '19
 Mackintoke

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Getting shot from behind by an archer doesn't cancel your parry... and neither should melee pokes.

I oh see what you want now yah. Yeah I agree.

Knight 7768 14309
  • 19 May '19
 ToLazy4Name

Ripostes can't be flinched, so you can hit trade while riposting but otherwise hit trades are gone.

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  • 19 May '19
 Mackintoke

Ok thanks for clearing that up.

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  • 19 May '19
 Monsteri

@Mackintoke said:

@SWSeriousMike said:

Hit trades are already in Mordhau and the comp scene doesn't seem to mind.

Oh shit, really? I didn't notice them. You're saying that after the windup, during release phase (after your character grunts) the swing won't get cancelled if my guy gets hit?

I just remember in Chivalry this was the case - if my pole hammer came a swinging and you stabbed me you'd get smashed still, but in this game that never happens, at least with me. I swear to god I thought this was just like comp mod, where they removed hit trades and it was a whole different meta.

I'm not a pro by any means. I just like hitting people in this game.

Hit trades can only happen during riposte.

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  • 19 May '19
 Devilize

Sorry for the wall but I wanted to provide a clear argument toward not nerfing cav based on my experience in this game and from being a very long time cav player in other games such as m&b and war of the roses. Unfortunately there is not a tldr summary, thank you for reading.

I do not consider cavalry as a class when balance comes to mind. Cavalry in its current iteration is not a class as you cannot start with a horse to build a class around. Yes you can pull out a spear, if that is your preference, and hope that someone doesn't spawn closer to the horse than you but because of the gameplay design there is an artificial limit to the amount of horses in play and those that are in play are available to the community.

I see cavalry by gameplay design as medieval tanks. Tanks that require group effort and/or specialize builds/weapons to take down. For example the Ballista and Billhook. You can take correlation between how horses are designed and expected to be dealt with as you would with tanks in the Battlefield series.

Cavalry has its own issues. To put it simply horses in this game behave more like they're lathered in gorilla glue with skates for hooves. I can see the devs were going for simulated weight of the horse when making turns and stopping but it just comes off...weird...with horses veering off at weird angles during collision and sticking to a rock in the ground or the cloth of a banner.

Combat off cavalry is extremely hit or miss, the same ground mechanics do not accurately apply on horseback. Weapons slice through parries that are blatantly accurate, and perfect chambers seem to be luck based. This likely has alot to do with movement on horseback in relation to targets on the ground but its still a problem.

Cavalry does require skill. Yes, when a player on cav hits its target its a quick kill, but that kill requires precision and timing especially when not using a lance/spear. Its very easy to get tunnel vision when concerning yourself with one target you're trying to time for. This tunnel vision affords the opposing team to take advantage of the situation and act, don't blame the cav player if your team doesn't act on threat of the medieval tank like they're suppose to. Lets also not forget that the cav player has to learn how to swing their weapon that doesn't behead their own horse.

Cavalry is actually easy to avoid/take out. Jukes & Crouch, learn it. crouching against a Cav charge is extremely effective, the cav doesn't expect it and they will have an extremely difficult time adjusting for it from their elevation, even with a Zweihander. Lets not also forget that while you're crouched you can still time an effective stab. Jukes or the ability to deceive your enemy into anticipating the incorrect direction you actually intend to move toward, works well against lances/spears and coupled with a well timed crouch will get you out alive many times over. Lastly remember to work as a team, looking at you archers, if every archer on the team had the horse as their priority cav would be overwhelmed instantly. Remember, horses do not heal.

I want to be as unbiased as I can but I felt that the perspective of a longtime cav player was needed for this thread. I believe that if the devs balance cav to the degree that many on this thread seem to want then it would only be fair that cav is available to all on certain maps and not at all on others, depending on size of the map. Thanks again for reading.

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  • 20 May '19
 Mackintoke

^^ That sounds about right. So going forward, collision needs to be tweaked, amirite?

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  • 20 May '19
 BOBOLOJOE

I don't like the horses much.
They annoy me when they kill me.

However, I don't care if they are nerfed or buffed.

If anything make them more realistic.
make riders fall off when the horse rears up.
maybe make them buck the rider off if you stab it the butt with a zwiehander

make them stop randomly to eat grass while charging

make them spook and shy when a firepot lands near them

make hits to their legs slow and incapacitate them

killing the riders is pretty easy if you are good so practice your timing, get the right weapon and sidestep and stab!
position yourself in areas they will get stuck and mob them.. basically... get gud nubs!

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  • 20 May '19
 BOBOLOJOE

oh and cav should be OP
maybe have server options to disable them but they should be OP
they were OP in real life.

look at the mongols
mobility and power is very important in battle.
they were the medieval tanks.

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  • 20 May '19
 Elgcahlxukuth

I remember a frontline match when my team was loosing and at some point one guy from opposite team had 54 kills and 0 deaths. Then I noticed it was the one on horse. I decided this must end, so I simply took a billhook and killed him (don't remember if I managed to take him down at first try or 2nd... or at most 3rd try). He was still doing ok on foot, but I saw his death counter started to increase.
What is important here, is that taking that horseman didn't improve my team's situation that much. That's because the number of horses in game is very limited, so even if they are successful there are plenty of things going on on a battlefield beside of horses.
I didn't mind this guy to take 54 kills with his horse. Horses should be powerful - it feels realistic to me.

As someone pointed out: hitting a horeman could do more damage due to his velocity. But just because horse knocks down foot knights doesn't mean hitting horse must unmount the rider. Don't forget that the rider can be strapped to a saddle and can hold to the horse with his left hand ;)

God Emperor 90 521
  • 20 May '19
 Donald Trump

Telling people to run archers to counter cavalry shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Just have perfect aim bro.