Mordhau

Horse, Archer and Engineer class balance suggestions

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CLASSBALANCE:

Horses:

  • horserider need to fall from the horse if you manage to hit their head with an arrow or throwing weapon, no matter what level their helmet has.If they already do then forget this point.

  • horserider need to be interrupted on their attack if the rider get hit by an arrow in the chest, while doing the attack.

And the reasoning behind this is that horserider have it at the moment just way to easy to farm other players by just mindlessly riding through them and hitting the attack key at the right time.They just abuse the speed and tankiness of the horse and that horses move almost faster than arrows can travel in this game, for easy kills.Plz dont change the fast speed of the horse, riding around on it is so much fun, but they need to be less brain dead and more skill based to use, so that a good archer can at least immobilize the rider with a well-placed head shot and interrupt his swing with a chest shot.

They can keep their movement speed while getting hit in the chest, but the attack they do needs to be interrupted.The second point of attack interruption on arrow hit to the chest is very important, or else horserider just tank through your shots and then insta kill you as archer. Because tensioning the bowstring and aiming takes forever with the bows, which leads to you only being able to fire one or two arrows at a distance which is halfway predictable to land the shots.Which is in most cases not enough to kill them on their horse and then they kill you and ride just in the distance to recover their health.

And if they finally die, because their horse cant recover its health and dies after a while, they just respawn and instantly jump on the next horse and are back in no time to continue the farming. Only viable option is to kill the riders and steal their horses, so that the horses cant respawn.And therefore archers need the attack interrupt and the riders falling down on head shot.

Archer:

Im all for having difficult to hit arrows in the game, but the projectile weapons in this game in general have just to many disadvantages at the same time to be a viable build.If projectiles travel that slow then they need to do more damage on hit. 34 hp for a chest hit on level 3 armor is just not practical, given:

  • how many people are running around with a level 3 chest armor
  • how long it takes you to make the bow aim ready and tensioning the string
  • how much character points it costs you to carry a longbow
  • how slow the arrows actually travel
  • how many people are running around with the bloodlust perk
  • how easy arrows can be blocked with the shield or parried by the enemy player
  • that enemy infantry gets 25 hp back on every kill they do
  • that there is a chase mechanic implemented in the game so that you can't really run away if they chase you down
  • that the bow gets hit out of your hands if someone only slightly hits you with a weapon and how fast it despwans on the ground before you can pick it up again, even if you manage to kill the attacker with your secondary weapon

What would make more sense is either having slow but hard hitting arrows, or having fast traveling projectiles which do not much damage. But at the moment you have slow traveling projectiles which do at the same time very little damage to most armor types, take forever to aim, you can hold the aim only a few seconds on the longbow, which i like and on top of that the weapon gets hit out of your hands if someone only slightly hits you.

I would suggest either:

  • have the longbow do 50 hp damage on chest hit no matter if level 2 or 3 chest armor and 75 hp damage on head hit, no matter if level 2 or 3 headgear

  • or make the longbow and throwing weapons overall 30-50 % faster, because hitting someone right now with them, even if it is only at 30 meter distance is almost luck based in this game, if the enemies move only slightly.

I would prefer the 2nd solution of making the arrows faster.Not much faster, so that it still feels very skill based, but at least a little bit faster, because if you just spam left and right step A-D walk constantly while standing otherwise still, there is no chance that even a very good archer can hit you at a range of 30 meters consistently in this game. Which feels very unrewarding skill wise and random to play as archer.

  • i think furthermore every weapon swing from an enemy on foot should be interrupted if you manage to hit the person which swings at you in the head with an arrow or projectile before they land the hit on you.

I know the game is mainly a slasher, but if there is no build variety in the game, then it gets boring fast. It just feels better if you can switch between long and short range builds from round to round and when both feel equally good and powerfull to play. And ranged weapon play feels kind of lacking at the moment, because hitting enemy targets feels to random at distance instead of skill based.

Engineer:

  • either the objects which the engineer builds up have to be faster to destroy, with the right weapons, or they should not automatically build up without him having to stand beside them and hammer them up.The way it works now with him just rapidly dropping multiple building structures after each other which then automatically build up without him having to build them up on his own, leads just to a very abusable playstyle where trolls do nothing else then run around the enemies teams bottlenecks and just cluster them with buildings. Sure you can kill the engineers, but it just takes way more time to destroy the structures after they build up, then it takes to just rapidly point a key on the ground. The engineers who troll you like that can just spawn on the nearest point, walk over to the next bottleneck and spam buildings, die, quickly respawn and repeat that process over and over, without any spawn time penalty, which is unbalanced.
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@Snake Skin said:
Remove this
https://discordapp.com/channels/308865564280094724/308865564280094724/575329886328193024

Sorry i dont open links to discord channels, because i dont like that app.But if you can post a conclusion of the discord conversation here, then we can of course argue it.

Knight 365 629
  • 8 May '19
 Snake Skin

@BudSpencer_vs_TheHound said:

@Snake Skin said:
Remove this
https://discordapp.com/channels/308865564280094724/308865564280094724/575329886328193024

Sorry i dont open links to discord channels, because i dont like that app.But if you can post a conclusion of the discord conversation here, then we can of course argue it.

you can deploy those toolbox walls right the moment the horse is about to hit you and it will completely stop the horse charge. Same happens with pavise shields (or used to).

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@Snake Skin said:

@BudSpencer_vs_TheHound said:

@Snake Skin said:
Remove this
https://discordapp.com/channels/308865564280094724/308865564280094724/575329886328193024

Sorry i dont open links to discord channels, because i dont like that app.But if you can post a conclusion of the discord conversation here, then we can of course argue it.

you can deploy those toolbox walls right the moment the horse is about to hit you and it will completely stop the horse charge. Same happens with pavise shields (or used to).

The longbow costs 11 points to equip and ontop of that you want to have the Huntsman perk for dealing with enemy archers and maybe a small one point weapon if the enemy tries to rush you, orelse some sort of armor. So equiping the toolbox as archer is kind of unviable, if that is what you suggest.Otherwise i have misunderstood you.

I mean sure engineers can block their pathways.But you shouldnt have to rely on a engineer to deal with a horse as archer.

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I think a damage increase would be the wrong way to go. A speed increase and drop decrease for the bows so they're more like the crossbow would be welcome. It is much, much easier to make shots with the crossbow than either bow.

I would also like to see both the bows and crossbow decreased in cost by 1. A decrease in cost for the archer perks would also be nice.

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@Zedb0a587635ff04bdd said:
I think a damage increase would be the wrong way to go. A speed increase and drop decrease for the bows so they're more like the crossbow would be welcome. It is much, much easier to make shots with the crossbow than either bow.

I would also like to see both the bows and crossbow decreased in cost by 1. A decrease in cost for the archer perks would also be nice.

Yes im also more in favor for a speedincrease. I like that it is challenging to hit someone with the bows and it should stay that way, but there is a difference between being challenging but manageable and just simply being random on larger distance. And i think the way the bow is now is just random and luck based on longer distances. There is also a small random sway added to the trajectory of every bow shot, which turns many legit headshots into bodyshots, which shouldnt be in a skill based game at all.

Sure you shouldnt be able to snipe someone from across the map consistently, but the way it is now you cant even hit people at 30-40 meter range, if they are aware of you and dont stand completely still. They shouldnt make it to easy to hit, but they should enable you at least to hit your shots in a 30-40 meter range more consistently. I think thats a reasonable request for a archer class.

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  • 10 May '19
 SWSeriousMike

Crossbow has lower rate of fire and exposes you when you reload, but can be reloaded from cover. If you want a weapon that plays like a longbow, I would suggest the longbow.

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@SWSeriousMike said:
Crossbow has lower rate of fire and exposes you when you reload, but can be reloaded from cover. If you want a weapon that plays like a longbow, I would suggest the longbow.

I tried every bow in this game and non of them feels really right. It mostly boils down to the slow arrow speed and that horserider do not fall of their horse if you manage to hit them in the head.

The reload time of the crossbow is way to long for how little damage it does. I think it also only has 12 arrows, hasnt it?
The longbow could be fun if the arrows would fly at least a little bit faster so that i can hit people at a range of 30-40 meter more consistently when they move randomly, but the way it is now its just not fun to use it or to invest time in it.

And it looks like im not the only person in mordhau playing archer, who thinks that way.

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  • 10 May '19
 WobWobz

I would agree that the projectile speed, for the longbow particularly, is too slow and turn every shot into pot luck beyond point blank range. Which is a shame as good aim and judgement should be rewarded, and random shots punished. I feel with the current low speed of the projectiles, just firing shots into a group is far more efficient than placing them carefully as the time for your arrow to hit the target is too long.

Increasing the speed would help accuracy, and be more rewarding for hitting longer shots, as it'll no longer just be a case of luck and discourage random shots into blobs of players (team damage would be greatly reduced).

I'd also like to see different arrow heads allow archers to deal increased damage (more efficiently that is) so long as they have chosen the correct targets. (Much like using the maul vs using a longsword).

I completely understand that ranged is not the focus for the game, but I think increasing the projectile speed wouldn't impact the melee as is but would greatly improve ranged gameplay increasing the skill cap and decision making during the fight.

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  • 10 May '19
 SWSeriousMike

The real problem in my opinion is the huntsman perk. If you want to be able to go up close you are forced to use throwing weapons. I don't think you really need increased projectile speed - you just need more valid targets and more freedom of movement.
But I'm not maining archer - so I could be completely off.

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  • 10 May '19
 WobWobz

@SWSeriousMike said:
The real problem in my opinion is the huntsman perk. If you want to be able to go up close you are forced to use throwing weapons. I don't think you really need increased projectile speed - you just need more valid targets and more freedom of movement.
But I'm not maining archer - so I could be completely off.

I agree completely, I don't understand the role of the recurve, it's a close range bow with a high rate of fire. But an enemy archer will destroy you with the huntsman perk if he's just spamming into the melee blob and a throwing weapon will deal far more damage without the risk.

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  • 10 May '19
 D3nTe

Buffing archers is the last thing this game needs.
Play as a melee when the enemy team has a few competent archers and you'll understand. You'll get hit constantly, even if you try to move around. It's not like you can afford to always pay attention to archers sitting in the back, the melees in front of you are a more immediate threat. Getting hit by a arrow mid fight is also a death sentence, since you can now be OS'ed by a body shot from most weapon.
Melees are a non-threat to archers, so the only threat to archers is enemies archers and horses. Now you want to nerf horses against archers so they also become a non-threat. That leaves only enemy archers to fight archers. I don't see how that's healthy for the game.
Horses are the only way to reach the back line, they should remain a threat to the back line.

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  • 10 May '19
 SWSeriousMike

Oh shit. Should have played melee once or twice. Good idea.

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@D3nTe said:
Buffing archers is the last thing this game needs.

Maybe in your mind,because you dont like to play as archer.But everyone who wants to play archer from time to time in this game, will agree that hitting people with your arrows if you dont stand right in front of them is just pure luck. Sure you should not be able to snipe across the whole map either, but as said being more consistent at a 30-40 meter range is a reasonable request for a archer class, i think. You still had to be very skillfull to hit targets at that range, even if the arrows would fly faster

@D3nTe said:
Play as a melee when the enemy team has a few competent archers and you'll understand. You'll get hit constantly, even if you try to move around.

I play half of my rounds as melee. I like playing as melee class, orelse i wouldnt play this game at all. But i also like to switch it up from time to time. The more build variety there is in this game the longer you can play it without getting bored of it. I think it is even very important for the longevity of this game to have many different builds available,not only melee builds, including more exotic builds like throwing weapons only and archer, which are all half way viable and dont feel completely unpractical or only viable if you play them at a range you would use a melee class in.

Why should i play a ranged weapon at melee range? That makes no sense. Rushing an archer down as melee class while tanking and parrying and sidestepping most of his shots and then killing him is so easy in this game, especially because of the chase mechanic, how long it takes to tension the bow and make it aim ready and then aim ontop of that and how little damage you do per second as archer, that being a archer in this game has almost become a MEME.

@D3nTe said:
It's not like you can afford to always pay attention to archers sitting in the back, the melees in front of you are a more immediate threat.

Yes you can. Its called Situation Awareness. Good player do it while they are playing. They are constantly looking around them and scanning the surounding. They dont simply run alone on their own in a group of multiple enemy players when they are not sure that they can outplay them with bloodlust, but rather decide to fight easier single targets or wait for backup. I think not suiciding into enemy groups is actually one of the most important things to do in frontline. There are allready to many idiots in this gamemode runing mindlessly into groupfights,swinging left and right without thinking about attack angles, killing a lot of teammates in the process before dying and then getting triggered when their team loses and either leave the round early or just switch team midround to grief the other team for a while.

And what about all the enemy melee player who sneak up on you while you fight their teammates and kill you form behind while you are bussy figthing their teammates. I cant see how that is any different from what you described?

@D3nTe said:
Getting hit by a arrow mid fight is also a death sentence, since you can now be OS'ed by a body shot from most weapon.

No its not. One bodyshot does 34 damage, a shot to the arm even less. And most people are running around with level 3 body armor. There are a lot of times where i manage to get one or two shots in as archer, but the enemy player has bloodlust, kills of one of my teammates and then is at full health again.

@D3nTe said:
Melees are a non-threat to archers, so the only threat to archers is enemies archers and horses.

Thats also incorect, i have explaind lengthy that it takes forever to make the bow aim ready, tensioning the bowstring alone takes 1.2 seconds and then you can only aim down sight for a few seconds before you snap out, which i like because its skillfull that way, but there is just simply no chance to hit arrows on a enemy melee class which is further away then 30 meter and is aware of you. And if that melee class gets closer, it can just parry your arrows, or try to bait you into misses by sidestepping. And even with good aim you will hit a lot of arms and legs, when this enemy melee class is moving chaotically while running at you. So no way that you can put out enough damgage to kill most good melee players before they reach you. You only manage to kill them if they are really stupid and run in a straight line in an open area without cover and without parrying your arrows at you.

@D3nTe said:
Now you want to nerf horses against archers so they also become a non-threat. That leaves only enemy archers to fight archers. I don't see how that's healthy for the game.
Horses are the only way to reach the back line, they should remain a threat to the back line.

Horses are op in this game. When did you the last time hear a legit mordhau player say that archer are op in this game? Archer are a complete joke at the moment. The people who do nothing more the whole round then riding around horses and farming enemy player normally land ontop of the scoreboard with 50-14 k/d or something like that.When did you the last time see an archer at the top of the scoreboard, or only close to it? All the hack and slay weapons especially in combination with the bloodlust perk have just a way higher damage output per second then any archer.

You are acting as if archer would be this extremly overpowered class which needs to be kept in check by horses, when it clearly is the other way around. As said look at the scoreboard or make the test for yourself and run up to an enemy archer at a range of 30-40 meter and provoke him to shoot at you and you will see how easy it is to just simply parry or sidestep his arrows, at that range, its a complete joke.

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  • 10 May '19
 Christian2222

Horses are not even that OP, just go fucking kill them. Tired of this shit, get a billhook, or a spear, or zweihander, or half of the other weapons that kill riders. It's not like battlefield where you NEED an anti tank missile. Throw a dagger when you see a rider comming.

I've been killed by a rider like 4 times tops on frontline/tdm. (not counting horse ranch joust server of course)

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  • 10 May '19
 Christian2222

@D3nTe said:
Buffing archers is the last thing this game needs.
Play as a melee when the enemy team has a few competent archers and you'll understand. You'll get hit constantly, even if you try to move around. It's not like you can afford to always pay attention to archers sitting in the back, the melees in front of you are a more immediate threat. Getting hit by a arrow mid fight is also a death sentence, since you can now be OS'ed by a body shot from most weapon.
Melees are a non-threat to archers, so the only threat to archers is enemies archers and horses. Now you want to nerf horses against archers so they also become a non-threat. That leaves only enemy archers to fight archers. I don't see how that's healthy for the game.
Horses are the only way to reach the back line, they should remain a threat to the back line.

Agreed, buffing archers is the last fucking thing this game needs. Whenever I want easy kills I just roll archer, and huntsman.

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@Christian2222 said:
Horses are not even that OP, just go fucking kill them.

The scoreboard at the end of the round says otherwise. Everyone of us has had more then once those insane winstreaks on a horse where we got 50 kills a round. Good luck trying to do that as archer.

@Christian2222 said:
Tired of this shit, get a billhook, or a spear, or zweihander, or half of the other weapons that kill riders. It's not like battlefield where you NEED an anti tank missile. Throw a dagger when you see a rider comming.

If you take the time to aim at them instead of getting on high ground, or behind a tree, or wall and throw a dagger at them, instead of reaching save ground it does what? 15 damage ? And as traitoff you get insta killed, because you did not use your remaining time to get away from them.

Horses are super brain dead and save to play right now.And the scoreboard at the end of the round shows that.

  • You can just tank through most damage and then insta kill.
  • You can just outrange most of the enemy melee weapons, its like using a permanent trust attack with a speed of 30 miles per hour.
  • You can just ride mindlessly through a crowd of enemies without getting any slower at all.
  • You can just fall back in save distance and recover your health in no time.
  • And if you you die, because your horse does not recover health, then you can just spawn again, go to the next horse and be back in 30 seconds, where you left of continue to farm enemy players.

There is just no downsite and you dont even have to play good to get your kills. Getting the right timing down of when to press the attack button takes a little bit time to get used to, but thats it. And when you use a spear weapon or a lance you have to just hold the spear infront.

I like that the horse is so fast and i really do not want them to change the speed of the horse, but they need at least to enable people with throwing weapons or arrows to knock the rider of the horse with a well placed headshot. Why else should i make myself the effort of landing and arrow, which flys almost slower then the horse can run, at the risk of exposing myself to the rider and get isnta killed for that ? It makes no sense the way it is now. There is just no risk vs reward play on both sides equally. Its 100% reward for the rider with almost no risk and 0% reward for the archer even if he lands the hard to land headshot with almost 100% risk of getting killed anyways after landing the headshot.

And the rider has always an advantage of when to engage and when not , because of his increased speed and position high up from the ground plus using his horse as meatshield in front of him. So trying to swing at the horserider while he comes at you with fullspeed and aims at you is heavily in the favor of the horse rider of course.

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  • 10 May '19
 SWSeriousMike

@BudSpencer_vs_TheHound said:
No its not. One bodyshot does 34 damage, a shot to the arm even less.

Small correction. Arm and torso don't take different damage. You probably meant leg.

Otherwise I agree, but you are wasting your time. Those guys don't even want archers nerfed. They are just looking for excuses for dying in-game. Can't be their fault for sure.

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Eh the archers are pretty underwhelming when in medieval times the British had overwhelming strength in castle defense and open field combat because of archers specifically long-bowmen due to range arrow speed and strength of the weapon. This is not a historical piece but a game but somethings could be implemented that exist in other games of the same nature.
I mean you can even "block" incoming arrows ... I didn't know everyone was from the land of make believe in kungfu.
But ALAS nobody is asking for more damage fix speeds if not arrows speed then just double reload speed or make it faster. Archers should outrun any infantry footman because of how ridiculously light their gear is if any.
Stunning or interrupting attacks with arrows is implemented in many games of the same nature ... because lets face it, the kinetic force implemented by an arrow hitting armor should stop you right then and there. And I am purposefully leaving out penetration and bleeding since the main focus of games like this is melee.
Archers are the weakest link ... so nerfing the weakest link would be counterproductive to the purpose of the suggestions.
You want a nerf I can only think of one ... archers where not very good at close combat double their stamina usage when using melee weapons ... but buff everything mentioned ... boom balance. Also adding a large crosshairs for melee fighters picking up a bow or crossbow should work as well. Since footmen didn't use bows at all and didnt practice with them making it mostly luck shots seeings as they wear heavy armor and all that.
I think that would be fair.