Mordhau

Shield Rebalance

777 1031
  • 12 May '19
 smellycathawk

@Deadmode said:

@smellycathawk said:

@Deadmode said:
From what I heard on a stream (Giru iirc) he said that, in alpha, the shields had an exact hitbox. This meant that in order to block an attack the user had to pretty much look right at the incoming attack, with tolerances for the varying shields sizes, ofc.

This worked okay(ish) for duels but when a shield user was in a 1vX situation the shield was utterly useless because you could only really block one incoming attack as they were so easy to get around. The shield block area was increased to balance it across all game modes to make them actually viable to use.

Now...

For people complaining about using kick as a strategy against them and calling for a kick buff - you clearly don't know how to kick properly. You don't just press F and hope that they won't backpedal or stab you before it connects. You need to hide the kick. If the shield user sees an incoming attack, he will keep his shield up (or raise it), at which point you morph to a kick. Simple. The only time this misses is if you start your morph from too fair away, you need to be up in their grill.

For people saying that you cannot hit around shields - you absolutely can. You can time overhead attacks with a jump to hit right over their shield and clout their heads/shoulers. You can quickly sidestep a stab around their flanks and also use swings against poorer-skilled shield users. You'll have a better time if you attack their weapon side too, as it's easier to get around. You CAN hit the legs too.

The other important thing is to PRESS them hard and keep the initiative. If a shield users has to keep that shield up, no matter what attacks you are using, they WILL drop it before you run out of stamina. Only if you give them chances to attack you back and cause YOU stam drain, will you stand a chance of losing the stam game.

About an earlier comment about Shield + Rapier/spear being the meta - it's really not. Watch any pro/comp game and you won't see those used at all, because they are easily defeated and shields actually serious hamper the user, especially with visibility and stamina drain potential.

I absolutely HATE to say it, but in order to fight shields you actually need to think, choose your attacks and timings properly and fight them using your skill, not hoping for a mechanic to be changed/added making it easier for you. Shields are designed to be harder to get around than not having one (hence their existence), you just need to learn to git gud and beat them.

Why not hop on a server with some buddies and practice this shit if you really want to improve?

Before you think about posting such wrong opinions ever again, you should duel me. See if you can kill me even once... see if you hold the same wrong opinions after.

This is hilarious. Nice flexing.

I never said, "I beat all shield players." I just stated that you can get attacks around them and kick them if you play right.

I'm sure a skilled shield user would be EVEN harder to beat, no doubt. You're comparing a skilled player making it impossible to get an attack past his shield as opposed to the game making it impossible to get an attack past, both totally different things.

I also don't see any evidence in your post that what I said is incorrect...

So you are going on the forum to talk about the mechanics but aren't willing to back up your claims in game. That is all I wanted to point out.

Too bad cause would be really fun to post the video of you trying to get passed my shield in this thread.

1369 2068

Ah I am a shield user in a game where shields may as well be brick walls that are magically broken by people's feet.

Why live

202 101
  • 13 May '19
 Mackintoke

To be fair, my feet are fucking god like.

162 125
  • 13 May '19
 Schwarzchild

Just make it accurate models and add a marginal Ms or more for release. Really makes z stabs or stabs around shield better

549 618
  • 13 May '19
 Deadmode

@smellycathawk said:

@Deadmode said:

@smellycathawk said:

@Deadmode said:
From what I heard on a stream (Giru iirc) he said that, in alpha, the shields had an exact hitbox. This meant that in order to block an attack the user had to pretty much look right at the incoming attack, with tolerances for the varying shields sizes, ofc.

This worked okay(ish) for duels but when a shield user was in a 1vX situation the shield was utterly useless because you could only really block one incoming attack as they were so easy to get around. The shield block area was increased to balance it across all game modes to make them actually viable to use.

Now...

For people complaining about using kick as a strategy against them and calling for a kick buff - you clearly don't know how to kick properly. You don't just press F and hope that they won't backpedal or stab you before it connects. You need to hide the kick. If the shield user sees an incoming attack, he will keep his shield up (or raise it), at which point you morph to a kick. Simple. The only time this misses is if you start your morph from too fair away, you need to be up in their grill.

For people saying that you cannot hit around shields - you absolutely can. You can time overhead attacks with a jump to hit right over their shield and clout their heads/shoulers. You can quickly sidestep a stab around their flanks and also use swings against poorer-skilled shield users. You'll have a better time if you attack their weapon side too, as it's easier to get around. You CAN hit the legs too.

The other important thing is to PRESS them hard and keep the initiative. If a shield users has to keep that shield up, no matter what attacks you are using, they WILL drop it before you run out of stamina. Only if you give them chances to attack you back and cause YOU stam drain, will you stand a chance of losing the stam game.

About an earlier comment about Shield + Rapier/spear being the meta - it's really not. Watch any pro/comp game and you won't see those used at all, because they are easily defeated and shields actually serious hamper the user, especially with visibility and stamina drain potential.

I absolutely HATE to say it, but in order to fight shields you actually need to think, choose your attacks and timings properly and fight them using your skill, not hoping for a mechanic to be changed/added making it easier for you. Shields are designed to be harder to get around than not having one (hence their existence), you just need to learn to git gud and beat them.

Why not hop on a server with some buddies and practice this shit if you really want to improve?

Before you think about posting such wrong opinions ever again, you should duel me. See if you can kill me even once... see if you hold the same wrong opinions after.

This is hilarious. Nice flexing.

I never said, "I beat all shield players." I just stated that you can get attacks around them and kick them if you play right.

I'm sure a skilled shield user would be EVEN harder to beat, no doubt. You're comparing a skilled player making it impossible to get an attack past his shield as opposed to the game making it impossible to get an attack past, both totally different things.

I also don't see any evidence in your post that what I said is incorrect...

So you are going on the forum to talk about the mechanics but aren't willing to back up your claims in game. That is all I wanted to point out.

Too bad cause would be really fun to post the video of you trying to get passed my shield in this thread.

So you're going to flex your duelling muscles in a thread but not actually bother to read what's been said before trying to flex again?

A skilled player making it hard to get around a shield is a very different thing to a game mechanic making it hard. Whether I duel you or not, the point is that shields CAN be fought around. If you're a good enough shield player to stop it happening, good on you, but the point still stands - it IS possible.

I don't have to go and fight someone from a forum to prove this - you just have to play the game or, if you can't do it, watch streams of players that do it with extreme regularity. Plus I wouldn't want to pander to your throbbing ego.

7 10
  • 13 May '19
 Gormsson

Not sure if it's been suggested.
Make shields drain more stamina, continuously holding the shield up should drain stamina on it's own.
Also make movement slower with shield up.
Apart from that I think shield is fine.

1908 1995
  • 13 May '19
 SWSeriousMike

@Gormsson said:
Not sure if it's been suggested.
Make shields drain more stamina, continuously holding the shield up should drain stamina on it's own.

It has been suggested over and over again. And it's not a helpful idea.

7 10
  • 13 May '19
 Gormsson

@SWSeriousMike said:

@Gormsson said:
Not sure if it's been suggested.
Make shields drain more stamina, continuously holding the shield up should drain stamina on it's own.

It has been suggested over and over again. And it's not a helpful idea.

why is it not a helpful idea?

Knight 930 2546
  • 13 May '19
 Pred

@Gormsson said:

@SWSeriousMike said:

@Gormsson said:
Not sure if it's been suggested.
Make shields drain more stamina, continuously holding the shield up should drain stamina on it's own.

It has been suggested over and over again. And it's not a helpful idea.

why is it not a helpful idea?

Because just holding a shield for prolonged time is what only the noobiest of noobs do. It doesn't solve anything for people who have more than like 5 hours in the game.

Knight 108 141

@Deadmode said:
For people saying that you cannot hit around shields - you absolutely can. You can time overhead attacks with a jump to hit right over their shield and clout their heads/shoulers. You can quickly sidestep a stab around their flanks and also use swings against poorer-skilled shield users. You'll have a better time if you attack their weapon side too, as it's easier to get around. You CAN hit the legs too.

The other important thing is to PRESS them hard and keep the initiative. If a shield users has to keep that shield up, no matter what attacks you are using, they WILL drop it before you run out of stamina. Only if you give them chances to attack you back and cause YOU stam drain, will you stand a chance of losing the stam game.

This is my experience as well. I've got 50+ rank in Chivalry, maining as shield player, and a couple hundred hours in Mordhau as well, and alpha veterans go around my shield easily on regular basis. Somehow I can't take it very seriously when they claim a noob's shield makes an impenetrable barrier.

49 51
  • 13 May '19
 RyMarq

@Pred said:

@Gormsson said:

@SWSeriousMike said:

@Gormsson said:
Not sure if it's been suggested.
Make shields drain more stamina, continuously holding the shield up should drain stamina on it's own.

It has been suggested over and over again. And it's not a helpful idea.

why is it not a helpful idea?

Because just holding a shield for prolonged time is what only the noobiest of noobs do. It doesn't solve anything for people who have more than like 5 hours in the game.

I disagree here actually. A major problem with shields is that they can keep holding forever until they are safe.
One way this might be dealt with is to force the shield player to create windows of vulnerability. If shields being up costs 1 stamina / second + 0.5 more every second. holding the shield up for 3 seconds is going to cost 4.5 stamina, and then 4 will cost 7, and around this time there begins quickly growing a window where they really want to put there arm down. Currently the window is 'when you let me step away safely, or after you already hit my shield', but that could easily change to create an interesting timing game on this one aspect alone.

Normal parries dont cost any stamina at all if the enemy feints, a cost like this begins to create real and somewhat interesting choices for the shield user.

Knight 930 2546
  • 13 May '19
 Pred

@RyMarq said:

@Pred said:

@Gormsson said:

@SWSeriousMike said:

@Gormsson said:
Not sure if it's been suggested.
Make shields drain more stamina, continuously holding the shield up should drain stamina on it's own.

It has been suggested over and over again. And it's not a helpful idea.

why is it not a helpful idea?

Because just holding a shield for prolonged time is what only the noobiest of noobs do. It doesn't solve anything for people who have more than like 5 hours in the game.

I disagree here actually. A major problem with shields is that they can keep holding forever until they are safe.
One way this might be dealt with is to force the shield player to create windows of vulnerability. If shields being up costs 1 stamina / second + 0.5 more every second. holding the shield up for 3 seconds is going to cost 4.5 stamina, and then 4 will cost 7, and around this time there begins quickly growing a window where they really want to put there arm down. Currently the window is 'when you let me step away safely, or after you already hit my shield', but that could easily change to create an interesting timing game on this one aspect alone.

Normal parries dont cost any stamina at all if the enemy feints, a cost like this begins to create real and somewhat interesting choices for the shield user.

It's one of the problems, but a minor one compared to having a forcefield + skipping all combat mechanics.

777 1031
  • 1
  • 13 May '19
 smellycathawk

@Deadmode said:

@smellycathawk said:

@Deadmode said:

@smellycathawk said:

@Deadmode said:
From what I heard on a stream (Giru iirc) he said that, in alpha, the shields had an exact hitbox. This meant that in order to block an attack the user had to pretty much look right at the incoming attack, with tolerances for the varying shields sizes, ofc.

This worked okay(ish) for duels but when a shield user was in a 1vX situation the shield was utterly useless because you could only really block one incoming attack as they were so easy to get around. The shield block area was increased to balance it across all game modes to make them actually viable to use.

Now...

For people complaining about using kick as a strategy against them and calling for a kick buff - you clearly don't know how to kick properly. You don't just press F and hope that they won't backpedal or stab you before it connects. You need to hide the kick. If the shield user sees an incoming attack, he will keep his shield up (or raise it), at which point you morph to a kick. Simple. The only time this misses is if you start your morph from too fair away, you need to be up in their grill.

For people saying that you cannot hit around shields - you absolutely can. You can time overhead attacks with a jump to hit right over their shield and clout their heads/shoulers. You can quickly sidestep a stab around their flanks and also use swings against poorer-skilled shield users. You'll have a better time if you attack their weapon side too, as it's easier to get around. You CAN hit the legs too.

The other important thing is to PRESS them hard and keep the initiative. If a shield users has to keep that shield up, no matter what attacks you are using, they WILL drop it before you run out of stamina. Only if you give them chances to attack you back and cause YOU stam drain, will you stand a chance of losing the stam game.

About an earlier comment about Shield + Rapier/spear being the meta - it's really not. Watch any pro/comp game and you won't see those used at all, because they are easily defeated and shields actually serious hamper the user, especially with visibility and stamina drain potential.

I absolutely HATE to say it, but in order to fight shields you actually need to think, choose your attacks and timings properly and fight them using your skill, not hoping for a mechanic to be changed/added making it easier for you. Shields are designed to be harder to get around than not having one (hence their existence), you just need to learn to git gud and beat them.

Why not hop on a server with some buddies and practice this shit if you really want to improve?

Before you think about posting such wrong opinions ever again, you should duel me. See if you can kill me even once... see if you hold the same wrong opinions after.

This is hilarious. Nice flexing.

I never said, "I beat all shield players." I just stated that you can get attacks around them and kick them if you play right.

I'm sure a skilled shield user would be EVEN harder to beat, no doubt. You're comparing a skilled player making it impossible to get an attack past his shield as opposed to the game making it impossible to get an attack past, both totally different things.

I also don't see any evidence in your post that what I said is incorrect...

So you are going on the forum to talk about the mechanics but aren't willing to back up your claims in game. That is all I wanted to point out.

Too bad cause would be really fun to post the video of you trying to get passed my shield in this thread.

So you're going to flex your duelling muscles in a thread but not actually bother to read what's been said before trying to flex again?

A skilled player making it hard to get around a shield is a very different thing to a game mechanic making it hard. Whether I duel you or not, the point is that shields CAN be fought around. If you're a good enough shield player to stop it happening, good on you, but the point still stands - it IS possible.

I don't have to go and fight someone from a forum to prove this - you just have to play the game or, if you can't do it, watch streams of players that do it with extreme regularity. Plus I wouldn't want to pander to your throbbing ego.

So you don't think you're as skilled as me, but you're telling me what is and isn't balanced... ok.

Come on if you are learning me on the forum you should be able to learn me in game?

You're just saying shit you obviously don't understand. So either put up or shut up. But no it's 2019 you're gonna sit down and keep spewing stupid shit.

49 51
  • 1
  • 13 May '19
 RyMarq

@smellycathawk said:
It's one of the problems, but a minor one compared to having a forcefield + skipping all combat mechanics.

Parries already create massive force-fields, its not actually very different. The difference is that they are time-insensitive. I dont think about the direction of the swing if I am parrying, if I am doing it it is because I dont know it precisely, otherwise I would chamber.

Shields are the same idea, except they have no time sensitivity so you cannot fake them out. Adding an element of time sensitivity is one solution to their problems.

777 1031
  • 1
  • 13 May '19
 smellycathawk

@RyMarq said:

@smellycathawk said:
It's one of the problems, but a minor one compared to having a forcefield + skipping all combat mechanics.

Parries already create massive force-fields, its not actually very different. The difference is that they are time-insensitive. I dont think about the direction of the swing if I am parrying, if I am doing it it is because I dont know it precisely, otherwise I would chamber.

Shields are the same idea, except they have no time sensitivity so you cannot fake them out. Adding an element of time sensitivity is one solution to their problems.

I would be all for making shield AND parry hitbox smaller. I feel like drags like zstabs and other directional trickery should be viable against both shields and parry. but any nub with half a brain can block even the most skillfull drags with an ounce of luck and simple backpedalling...

549 618
  • 4
  • 13 May '19
 Deadmode

@smellycathawk said:

@Deadmode said:

@smellycathawk said:

@Deadmode said:

@smellycathawk said:

@Deadmode said:
From what I heard on a stream (Giru iirc) he said that, in alpha, the shields had an exact hitbox. This meant that in order to block an attack the user had to pretty much look right at the incoming attack, with tolerances for the varying shields sizes, ofc.

This worked okay(ish) for duels but when a shield user was in a 1vX situation the shield was utterly useless because you could only really block one incoming attack as they were so easy to get around. The shield block area was increased to balance it across all game modes to make them actually viable to use.

Now...

For people complaining about using kick as a strategy against them and calling for a kick buff - you clearly don't know how to kick properly. You don't just press F and hope that they won't backpedal or stab you before it connects. You need to hide the kick. If the shield user sees an incoming attack, he will keep his shield up (or raise it), at which point you morph to a kick. Simple. The only time this misses is if you start your morph from too fair away, you need to be up in their grill.

For people saying that you cannot hit around shields - you absolutely can. You can time overhead attacks with a jump to hit right over their shield and clout their heads/shoulers. You can quickly sidestep a stab around their flanks and also use swings against poorer-skilled shield users. You'll have a better time if you attack their weapon side too, as it's easier to get around. You CAN hit the legs too.

The other important thing is to PRESS them hard and keep the initiative. If a shield users has to keep that shield up, no matter what attacks you are using, they WILL drop it before you run out of stamina. Only if you give them chances to attack you back and cause YOU stam drain, will you stand a chance of losing the stam game.

About an earlier comment about Shield + Rapier/spear being the meta - it's really not. Watch any pro/comp game and you won't see those used at all, because they are easily defeated and shields actually serious hamper the user, especially with visibility and stamina drain potential.

I absolutely HATE to say it, but in order to fight shields you actually need to think, choose your attacks and timings properly and fight them using your skill, not hoping for a mechanic to be changed/added making it easier for you. Shields are designed to be harder to get around than not having one (hence their existence), you just need to learn to git gud and beat them.

Why not hop on a server with some buddies and practice this shit if you really want to improve?

Before you think about posting such wrong opinions ever again, you should duel me. See if you can kill me even once... see if you hold the same wrong opinions after.

This is hilarious. Nice flexing.

I never said, "I beat all shield players." I just stated that you can get attacks around them and kick them if you play right.

I'm sure a skilled shield user would be EVEN harder to beat, no doubt. You're comparing a skilled player making it impossible to get an attack past his shield as opposed to the game making it impossible to get an attack past, both totally different things.

I also don't see any evidence in your post that what I said is incorrect...

So you are going on the forum to talk about the mechanics but aren't willing to back up your claims in game. That is all I wanted to point out.

Too bad cause would be really fun to post the video of you trying to get passed my shield in this thread.

So you're going to flex your duelling muscles in a thread but not actually bother to read what's been said before trying to flex again?

A skilled player making it hard to get around a shield is a very different thing to a game mechanic making it hard. Whether I duel you or not, the point is that shields CAN be fought around. If you're a good enough shield player to stop it happening, good on you, but the point still stands - it IS possible.

I don't have to go and fight someone from a forum to prove this - you just have to play the game or, if you can't do it, watch streams of players that do it with extreme regularity. Plus I wouldn't want to pander to your throbbing ego.

So you don't think you're as skilled as me, but you're telling me what is and isn't balanced... ok.

Come on if you are learning me on the forum you should be able to learn me in game?

You're just saying shit you obviously don't understand. So either put up or shut up. But no it's 2019 you're gonna sit down and keep spewing stupid shit.

It's quite clear now that you have no intention of even trying to comprehend my point, or maybe you just can't. It's also clear that your ego is matched with your immaturity.

Even if I was to duel you and lose, that proves nothing. It just means that you can block better than I can attack. It does not prove or disprove my point - that you CAN fight around a shield and the game does not make it impossible.

To anyone not sure about it; go into a server with a buddy and get them to stand still whilst blocking and not turning. You can stab around that shield. To prove it, I did it myself: https://streamable.com/pupwu

Firstly I show the blocking of the shield at the front, then I attack with a training sword from 90° angles and then the weapon hand side (same protection as shield side - easier to hit in combat when enemy whiffs, ofc) and then an over-the-top strike.

Please watch this video and then prove to me that a shield user cannot be attacked with his shield up. This is a more accurate test than an ingame clip of a failed attack because my friend is not attempting to fight back, so any or desync or lag issues are not present as he is dead still all the time. As you can see, I am right that the game does not stop you attacking a shield user with their shield up.

This means that a player with the right approach, technique and level of skill can attack the shield user regardless of it being held up. My skills at it aren't great because I'm still training this skillset, but I can do it. I'm better at overhead striking than sidestepping so far but I'll get the manoeuvre nailed down with enough practice eventually. My skills at duelling a shield user are most likely not up to beating a competent shield user yet, but I know that most comp/pro players would be. They can test you out better than I can (if you are as good as you say.)
So, @smellycathawk, I would be willing to bet that if you fought a high-level comp player at this game with your shield, you wouldn't last very long. There's a reason you don't see them used much in comp matches.

Now let's see if your ego is powerful enough to challenge a pro like Giru or Stouty and then spread that video on here as happily as you would have one of me and you...

549 618
  • 13 May '19
 Deadmode

Now, to everyone else, all I want to say is that for anyone struggling against shield - yes, they are a bit trickier to fight and they can make things difficult in 1vX. All I can say is, backed up by the above post content, with practice you can start to defeat them quicker/easier and you will find ways to manage a 1vX situation where a shield user is present. I can attest to that as I have seen the improvement in my own game. It really does take practice. You do have to take time out to work on the techniques needed and then be able to pull them off with regularity in matches.

It is not something that will come instantly and nor should it be something that is changed in the core combat mechanics to achieve that result. Sure, it would be nice if the devs added a mechanic that means that with enough button clicks, your shield-weilding enemy lowered it for you to attack easily, but where is the fun in that? It's way more rewarding to learn to counter a challenge and then start to beat it!

This game is a great example of you reap what you sow - put the time in to learn and practice and you will improve on the battlefield.

549 618
  • 14 May '19
 Deadmode

@smellycathawk said:
I would be all for making shield AND parry hitbox smaller. I feel like drags like zstabs and other directional trickery should be viable against both shields and parry.

And with this I actually agree, mainly because I would like to see a little more directional defense needed with parrying. how much of a hitbox reduction is hard to say, as I think it only needs to be a minimal change.

@smellycathawk said:
but any nub with half a brain can block even the most skillfull drags with an ounce of luck and simple backpedalling...

But then, as in my above post, I disagree. Whilst I'm not able to do it well yet, I see highly-skilled players defeating shields very easily regularly.

777 1031
  • 14 May '19
 smellycathawk

Okay if you really suck that bad we can do it scientifically. We fight eachother 300 times, 1/3 i will use a shield, 1/3 you will use a shield, and 1/3 neither will use a shield and we will tally the results. How about it

Knight 930 2546
  • 14 May '19
 Pred

@Deadmode said:
Please watch this video and then prove to me that a shield user cannot be attacked with his shield up. This is a more accurate test than an ingame clip of a failed attack because my friend is not attempting to fight back, so any or desync or lag issues are not present as he is dead still all the time. As you can see, I am right that the game does not stop you attacking a shield user with their shield up.

Dude, do you even hear yourself? You are saying going around the shield is fine, because it's possible when a guy is standing still and not fighting back.

THEN YOU POST A PROOF VIDEO, WHERE YOU NEED 5 TRIES TO STAB AROUND TO HIS WEAPON SIDE, BECAUSE TWO TIMES YOU MISS AND TWO OTHER TIMES YOU GET BLOCKED BY INVISIBLE FORCE FIELD OF SHIELD, EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE POINTING TO HIS SHOULDER

I'm puzzled why shields tend to attract so many delusional people.